Weapons & Equip Is the post bounce damage penalty for Chlorophyte arrows really necessary?

[Stonetribe]

This is something that I've been wondering about for a while now because it always seemed kind of tacked on to me. Why do Chlorophyte arrows have a damage penalty for a pseudo homing effect when their bullet counter part has actual and much more reliable homing? Maybe there's some scenario or weapon combination that's flying over my head but I think Chlorophyte arrows would be so much more appealing and not at all overpowered if they dealt full damage regardless of whether they've already bounced or not. Is it just me?

 

[MegaByte]

Maybe it's because bows are meant for more aggressive & skill-rewarding playstyle, so devs ddin't want to give them the range of chlorophyte bullets.

IIRC Phantasm does more DPS than S.D.M.G. and around 80% of it's arrows are those ghost arrows, 4 per 1 regular arrow, which spawns more often with smart bouncing and unaffected by damage penalty I think, idk how much they help in terms of DPS.
The disadvantage is that Vortex Beater has much more range when using chlorophyte bullets it's the safer option.

That's pre-moon lord but idk about other situations, if bows do significantly higher DPS than guns then this somewhat applies to other tiers.

 

[TurboClide]

This is something that I've been wondering about for a while now because it always seemed kind of tacked on to me. Why do Chlorophyte arrows have a damage penalty for a pseudo homing effect when their bullet counter part has actual and much more reliable homing? Maybe there's some scenario or weapon combination that's flying over my head but I think Chlorophyte arrows would be so much more appealing and not at all overpowered if they dealt full damage regardless of whether they've already bounced or not. Is it just me?

The problem is that Chloro bullets are weak. It has low damage. Chloro arrows has good damage, on the other hand.

 

[Stonetribe]

Maybe it's because bows are meant for more aggressive & skill-rewarding playstyle, so devs ddin't want to give them the range of chlorophyte bullets.

IIRC Phantasm does more DPS than S.D.M.G. and around 80% of it's arrows are those ghost arrows, 4 per 1 regular arrow, which spawns more often with smart bouncing and unaffected by damage penalty I think, idk how much they help in terms of DPS.
The disadvantage is that Vortex Beater has much more range when using chlorophyte bullets it's the safer option.

That's pre-moon lord but idk about other situations, if bows do significantly higher DPS than guns then this somewhat applies to other tiers.

I can understand not wanting both Chlorophyte arrows and bullets having the exact same homing effect, if anything it's more interesting and offers more variety. The thing that confuses me is why Chlorophyte arrows also incur a damage penalty just for making use of their intended effect.

The problem is that Chloro bullets are weak. It has low damage. Chloro arrows has good damage, on the other hand.

That is true, but there are other arrows with a similar base damage. Do you really think that the combination of both that and the smart bounce would really warrant a whopping 33% damage penalty? Even the damage penalty of homing weapons on the lunatic cultist is only 25%, and with that there's a much clearer reason being that he's the smallest boss and moves around really fast.

Further more, wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the base damage rather than apply a penalty that effects both the ammo and the weapon? This is what I mean when I say that it feels weirdly tacked on.

 

[TurboClide]

That is true, but there are other arrows with a similar base damage. Do you really think that the combination of both that and the smart bounce would really warrant a whopping 33% damage penalty? Even the damage penalty of homing weapons on the lunatic cultist is only 25%, and with that there's a much clearer reason being that he's the smallest boss and moves around really fast.

Further more, wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the base damage rather than apply a penalty that effects both the ammo and the weapon? This is what I mean when I say that it feels weirdly tacked on

Yeah, you're right. This should be fixed ASAP.

 

[MegaByte]

I can understand not wanting both Chlorophyte arrows and bullets having the exact same homing effect, if anything it's more interesting and offers more variety. The thing that confuses me is why Chlorophyte arrows also incur a damage penalty just for making use of their intended effect.

I never used chlorophyte arrows properly in a fight so, is smart bouncing too slow and misses faster targets? like nanite bullets

or like I assumed do they almost always hit after bouncing since there are 4 bounces, if they do then they're basically as good as chlorophyte homing but otherwise yeah damage penalty is unnecessary.

 

[J Bame]

This is to encourage aiming with Chlorophyte Arrows instead of just mindless spam

Chloro Arrows are the exact same as Ichor Arrows stat-wise, if you can get the Ichor through something else Chloro Arrows are just better period. Would you rather deal 33% less damage, or no damage at all because the arrow hit a tile?

 

[Stonetribe]

I never used chlorophyte arrows properly in a fight so, is smart bouncing too slow and misses faster targets? like nanite bullets

or like I assumed do they almost always hit after bouncing since there are 4 bounces, if they do then they're basically as good as chlorophyte homing but otherwise yeah damage penalty is unnecessary.

They have above average velocity so there's a pretty good chance that it will hit your intended target so long as it's within smart bounce range at the point of impact, but it's definitely not guaranteed. And during an event with lots of enemies, it's almost certain to hit something, though trying to focus a single target with just the smart bounce can become unreliable.

This is to encourage aiming with Chlorophyte Arrows instead of just mindless spam

Chloro Arrows are the exact same as Ichor Arrows stat-wise, if you can get the Ichor through something else Chloro Arrows are just better period. Would you rather deal 33% less damage, or no damage at all because the arrow hit a tile?

I can get that, but doesn't the smart bounce encourage that by itself? It's not like chlorophyte bullets where the homing effect is almost comically aggressive, those suckers can do a whole 180 degree turn in mid air to hit their target. With the arrows, you have to pay more attention to where you're shooting since the smart bounce will only trigger if your intended target is close enough to a solid tile, limiting their use against airborne targets. And even if the smart bounce does trigger, there's still a chance that you'll miss your target depending on how far away they are and how fast they're moving. I think there are enough drawbacks even without the massive 33% damage penalty.

Or are you saying that players shouldn't be trying to intentionally utilize the smart bounce at all, and only try to hit their target directly and that the smart bounce is supposed to be more of a consolation prize? I could kind of get that too, though again I think that there are enough natural limitations inherit to smart bouncing to not also warrant such a harsh penalty to your overall damage. Also, at that point wouldn't it be better to just use a different type of arrow that gives an actual benefit to hitting your target?

Regarding ichor, this can be applied to pretty much every weapon, is there something about the specific combination of ichor and chlorophyte arrows that I'm missing?

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

I think what Bame was getting at is that ichor arrows have solid stats - great base damage and has innate high velocity (so you don't need a magic quiver). Ichor arrows are already a solid pick for single target scenarios (especially if fighting mobile bosses where holy arrows' stars will likely miss), and chlorophyte arrows get to keep all these traits (minus the debuff), plus the ability to turn missed shots into hits, albeit with reduced damage. Because of their high stats, they don't need as great of a secondary effect to be powerful, so the reduced damage smart bounce works well here. Compare this to chlorophyte bullets, which have relatively low base damage compared to other hardmode bullets, so you need to give up damage for the consistency (especially since crystal bullets exist, which have identical base damage but a very potent damage increase as a secondary effect).

 

[Stonetribe]

I think what Bame was getting at is that ichor arrows have solid stats - great base damage and has innate high velocity (so you don't need a magic quiver). Ichor arrows are already a solid pick for single target scenarios (especially if fighting mobile bosses where holy arrows' stars will likely miss), and chlorophyte arrows get to keep all these traits (minus the debuff), plus the ability to turn missed shots into hits, albeit with reduced damage. Because of their high stats, they don't need as great of a secondary effect to be powerful, so the reduced damage smart bounce works well here. Compare this to chlorophyte bullets, which have relatively low base damage compared to other hardmode bullets, so you need to give up damage for the consistency (especially since crystal bullets exist, which have identical base damage but a very potent damage increase as a secondary effect).

Even though I feel like it has enough limitations as is, I can understand not wanting the base damage to not be as high if the smart bouncing is really that strong of an effect. The thing is, the penalty doesn't apply to just the arrow's base damage itself, it applies to your total damage output. Even when you account for the chlorophyte arrow's decent base damage, the damage you lose out on is going to be much more significant that what you would lose when using chlorophyte bullets over a different kind of bullet. Why do arrow firing weapons need such a harsher penalty compared to bullet firing ones for a weaker homing effect?

Like I said earlier, wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the chlorophyte arrow's base damage if it's that much of a concern?

 

[J Bame]

Or are you saying that players shouldn't be trying to intentionally utilize the smart bounce at all, and only try to hit their target directly and that the smart bounce is supposed to be more of a consolation prize?

Again, better to deal 67% damage than no damage.

Why do arrow firing weapons need such a harsher penalty compared to bullet firing ones for a weaker homing effect?

So in theory chloro bullets lose more, Crystal Bullets have much more damage per hit amd High Velocity pierce up to 3 enemies

In practice the homing is dummy op, chloro bullets are not a baseline for anything

 

[Stonetribe]

Again, better to deal 67% damage than no damage.

It's definitely something, but considering how you're by no means guaranteed to hit your target after missing due to the limitations I've pointed out, I really don't think that a 33% penalty is also necessary.

So in theory chloro bullets lose more, Crystal Bullets have much more damage per hit amd High Velocity pierce up to 3 enemies

In practice the homing is dummy op, chloro bullets are not a baseline for anything

But holy arrows exist, allowing you to potentially deal two instances of 50% of your base damage very similarly to crystal bullets. And unholy and jester arrows both enable piercing. The damage you lose out on still just isn't comparable.

I can understand if you think that chlorophyte bullets need to be nerfed, but I'm not saying that the arrows should have an equally effective homing effect, just that they shouldn't incur a damage penalty for utilizing their smart bounce.

 

[J Bame]

It's definitely something, but considering how you're by no means guaranteed to hit your target after missing due to the limitations I've pointed out, I really don't think that a 33% penalty is also necessary.

But holy arrows exist, allowing you to potentially deal two instances of 50% of your base damage very similarly to crystal bullets. And unholy and jester arrows both enable piercing. The damage you lose out on still just isn't comparable.

I can understand if you think that chlorophyte bullets need to be nerfed, but I'm not saying that the arrows should have an equally effective homing effect, just that they shouldn't incur a damage penalty for utilizing their smart bounce.

If Ichor arrows are good, Ichor arrows that smart bounce instead of applying Ichor are also good. There is not else much to say here.

Holy arrows deal 30% damage that is heavily affected by defense and dont easily hit, Jester's arrows are not for bosses, Chloro arrows actually have the good bossing DPS of Ichor arrows instead of Chloro Bullets that without their homing effect are the exact same as Silver Bullets

 

[Stonetribe]

If Ichor arrows are good, Ichor arrows that smart bounce instead of applying Ichor are also good. There is not else much to say here.

I'm not saying that the smart bounce can't be helpful, I just don't see why the smart bounce effect is powerful enough to also warrant a whooping 33% penalty to your overall damage.

Holy arrows deal 30% damage that is heavily affected by defense and dont easily hit, Jester's arrows are not for bosses, Chloro arrows actually have the good bossing DPS of Ichor arrows instead of Chloro Bullets that without their homing effect are the exact same as Silver Bullets

You're correct, I was mistaken about the partial damage amount, though I don't think that the stars are affected by defense any differently than the crystal shards. Jester arrows might not be ideal for most bosses, but they're still plenty viable for events, not to mention the pumpkin/frost moon which also includes bosses.

And I can get if you think that chlorophyte arrows base damage should be lower, but I think that applying a 33% damage penalty to your total damage is excessive.

 

[Dapling]

Honestly I think chlorophyte arrows are fine. It’s Nano bullets that shouldn’t have a falloff after smart bouncing. There’s no reason to use them over chlorophyte ones.

 

[J Bame]

I'm not saying that the smart bounce can't be helpful, I just don't see why the smart bounce effect is powerful enough to also warrant a whooping 33% penalty to your overall damage.

My man this is the third time we've had this exchange, if you dont agree that's fine but just agree to disagree

 

[Stonetribe]

My man this is the third time we've had this exchange, if you dont agree that's fine but just agree to disagree

Hmm, yeah I can see that this isn't going anywhere. Have a good one then.

 

[MegaByte]

Honestly I think chlorophyte arrows are fine. It’s Nano bullets that shouldn’t have a falloff after smart bouncing. There’s no reason to use them over chlorophyte ones.

There's one reason to use them, the confusion effect useful for pillars and dungeon

 

[Stonetribe]

There's one reason to use them, the confusion effect useful for pillars and dungeon

I'd support removing the post bounce damage penalty for nanite bullets as well seeing as how confusion can be a bit of a double edged sword in some cases. Also, upon closer examination I read that with nanite bullets, the damage penalty applies only to the bullets base damage and not your total damage output like chlorophyte arrows do. This seemed so bizarre that I even tested it out in game wondering if it was a typo but no, that really is how it works!

Also, I can't believe that it hadn't occurred to me before but I just remembered that the dart rifle/gun and crystal darts also exist, which besides boosting a higher base damage than all the other dart types, it also has a much stronger smart bounce affect, able to do so six times compared to chlorophyte arrows one smart bounce, not to mention how much earlier it can be obtained. If a single smart bounce is such a powerful effect that it needs a massive 33% damage penalty applied to your total damage to balance it out, then why the hell is no one worried about crystal darts? It's like the more I look into this the more backwards it seems.

 

[MegaByte]

I'd support removing the post bounce damage penalty for nanite bullets as well seeing as how confusion can be a bit of a double edged sword in some cases.

You mean enemies reflecting bullets? that rarely happens and easy to avoid but I don't care if they remove damage penalty of nanite bullets.

the damage penalty applies only to the bullets base damage and not your total damage output like chlorophyte arrows do. This seemed so bizarre that I even tested it out in game wondering if it was a typo but no, that really is how it works!

Really? I didn't know that, then it barely affects weapons like sniper rifle, shroomite aromr is weird in the same way, IIRC it doesn't increase total damage like other armor sets but increases "weapon's damage" without increasing bullet/arrow/missile's damage