whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
That’s true, but shooting twice the falling stars feels twice as awesome. And if the use time were increased by 40% or so, that would be seen as a nerf by players who don’t know the game mechanics.
Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Leinfors
- Start date
- Status
That’s true, but shooting twice the falling stars feels twice as awesome. And if the use time were increased by 40% or so, that would be seen as a nerf by players who don’t know the game mechanics.
I can say right now that I'm trying to look at Super Star Shooter and I'm not happy with any solution with this paradoxical nightmare.
I'm either going to have to slow it down so much that it feels sluggish (aka, not fun) or reduce its damage AND slow it down somewhat (aka, not fun).
All to fix the "some shots miss" issue (aka, not fun).
Every solution I've come up with might be perceived as a nerf, though undoubtedly would actually be a buff in truth.
I can say this right now: I can increase its use time by 50% (fires only 2 shots in the time it would normally take to fire 3), AND reduce its damage by 10, and the weapon still does more DPS.
But I mean, if you read in the changelog "Leinfors made your weapon fire less and deal less damage", who's going to believe that its stronger than before?
I'm either going to have to slow it down so much that it feels sluggish (aka, not fun) or reduce its damage AND slow it down somewhat (aka, not fun).
All to fix the "some shots miss" issue (aka, not fun).
Every solution I've come up with might be perceived as a nerf, though undoubtedly would actually be a buff in truth.
I can say this right now: I can increase its use time by 50% (fires only 2 shots in the time it would normally take to fire 3), AND reduce its damage by 10, and the weapon still does more DPS.
But I mean, if you read in the changelog "Leinfors made your weapon fire less and deal less damage", who's going to believe that its stronger than before?
whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
That’s where I believe a simple 50% ammo conservation rate would work well. For every shot that doesn’t hit due to piercing, you save one fallen star (roughly. of course, not exact), so it doesn’t feel like you’re wasting any stars on projectiles that can’t even hit. It would also be seen as a buff in the changelog.
Granted, its just a bandaid solution, bit it may be the easiest solution to avoid having to rebalance the entire weapon.
whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
On second thought that may not actually work. It lets you fire the weapon for twice as long with the same amount of stars, which is a pretty enormous buff.
Gonna have to go back on that suggestion and say maybe that isn’t the best solution
Gonna have to go back on that suggestion and say maybe that isn’t the best solution
CellarDoor96
Terrarian
Is it not possible to reduce the invincibility frames it gives? This has been done with other weapons so I would think it would be possible with the SSS.
whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
The issue with that is it’s literally a 100% buff to the SSS. The SSS was balanced around the DPS it exhibits, where every other shot misses. If you make every shot hit instead of every other, that’s literally double the firepower.
Official Terrarian
This is widely used feature in Terraria. Many projectiles don't have configured immunity times, but instead have hardcoded global immunity times in the projectile damage code.
NailFriendly
LastPrismLaser
SolarWhipSword
Arkhalis
Terragrim
PiercingStarlight
ExplosiveBullet
Electrosphere
SpiritFlame
MagicMissile
Tempest
LastPrismLaser
SolarWhipSword
Arkhalis
Terragrim
PiercingStarlight
ExplosiveBullet
Electrosphere
SpiritFlame
MagicMissile
Tempest
So the issue here is that the secondary bolt (the slash) has NO special immune frame system, it uses universal piercing frames.
So the slash induces immune frames, which blocks the second star fired from hitting. I can't reduce the number of frames on the secondary bolt because it isn't set to use special frames at all. Shifting it to use static frames (aka, the slashes interfere only with the other slashes) allows me to adjust this number, but it INSTANTLY doubled the weapon's DPS. Without even reducing the frame count.
This is why I tell people that we can't just arbitrarily set local/static piercing frames on stuff, because oftentimes, their DPS was balanced around the piercing issue already being taken into consideration. This is specifically the case with the Super Star Shooter. "Fixing" these issues often over-buffs weapons beyond their intended power, which means I have to go back and counter-nerf them to even it out. And those who don't understand the full context only see a nerf, when these are usually actually buffs overall. I think your second sentence demonstrates the problem I'm encountering very clearly: every time I fix one of these, it gives the false impression that its a simple thing and I can just go fixing all of them. I can't.
Super Star Shooter is a roughly Megashark tier weapon, it isn't meant to be dishing out 500+ DPS single target (especially since its a group-damage focused weapon). So I can't fix it and leave it alone. The only options are to A) leave it alone entirely B) give it static frames but nerf it substantially to counteract the buff or C) nerf its use time slightly so that the shots don't interfere anymore, which will still require a damage nerf to roughly maintain status quo. I'm currently leaning towards C, its just simpler, to be honest, and hopefully I can explain the issue clearly enough that people will understand.
Etotheipi
Retinazer
Yeah, it would also have the flaw of letting you get a 0% ammo consumption rate with some buffs and a chloro helmet.
Etotheipi
Retinazer
Ohhhh ok never mind that makes a lot more sense. I feel dumb now XD
CellarDoor96
Terrarian
Oh I see, I didn't realize that the slashes used a different timer than the primary shots.
I mean, even if you did reduce its damage or fire rate, it wouldn't be the first time you buffed a weapon in a counterintuitive way - just look at the changes to the Rainbow Crystal Staff and Imp Staff in 1.4. I think that even if some people might get the wrong idea at first, eventually the weapon's performance will speak for itself. Although, granted, I'm not the one who'll be fielding all the false complaints.
I mean, even if you did reduce its damage or fire rate, it wouldn't be the first time you buffed a weapon in a counterintuitive way - just look at the changes to the Rainbow Crystal Staff and Imp Staff in 1.4. I think that even if some people might get the wrong idea at first, eventually the weapon's performance will speak for itself. Although, granted, I'm not the one who'll be fielding all the false complaints.
This one is a little different . . .
With RCS, for instance, it was like:
- Improved AI and attack rate
- Reduced damage
So its kind of a give and take.
On paper, this change is literally:
- Nerfed speed and damage
Its a purely applied-science buff, and on paper is purely nerf, unless you know the full context. Its a weird situation all around.
Official Terrarian
Projectiles don't need to use special frames to allow adjusting the immunity timer. It can be set in the projectile damage code. I listed a few of the other weapons that already do so in my earlier comment. The extra hit, SuperStarSlash moves very fast and isn't used for anything else so it is safe to set a shorter than normal global immunity time.
in Projectile.Damage() something like
Code:
if (this.type == ProjectileID.SuperStarSlash) {
npc.immune[this.owner] = 5;
}This "speed nerf" is literally nothing but a buff in terms of accuracy which causes 100% more shots to hit and increases your amount of available shots by 100% at the cost of requiring to deal 100% more damage (i.e. dealing 50% "less" dmg, which on the other hand isn't 100% right).
Etotheipi
Retinazer
I think his point is that that isn't obvious to everyone and many people won't understand the logic behind it.
How about that one:
Super Star Shooter: Is now 100% more accurate which makes it require 50% less ammo but the total dps is unchanged.
Its not an accuracy buff. Literally nothing about the weapon's accuracy has changed.
Furthermore, that's not the change I'm planning to make.
Even if I do this, it doesn't change the fact that this still doubles the weapon's damage. At its core, no matter HOW I resolve the immune frames, the issue is that without the immune frame "handicap", the weapon is then too strong. So I have to nerf it, or else not fix it at all.
Furthermore, that's not the change I'm planning to make.
Even if I do this, it doesn't change the fact that this still doubles the weapon's damage. At its core, no matter HOW I resolve the immune frames, the issue is that without the immune frame "handicap", the weapon is then too strong. So I have to nerf it, or else not fix it at all.
JohannSimm
Retinazer
Ideally the weapon would retain the same use time as the weapon it's crafted from; otherwise it feels like a downgrade. Is it possible to reduce the damage from the slashes to be a fraction of the main shot damage?
Could something like this work?
– Main cannon deals 60 damage per shot
– Slashes have static immunity and deal 10 damage each
Essentially the slash damage is reduced to 0, then 10 damage from the main cannon is transferred over to them.
Also, the patch notes could explain why the apparent 'nerfs' were made, if necessary. Just adding "every second shot no longer misses" would be good enough.
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