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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
To remove the creature spawning of the grass created by the flower boots is just a very disappointing nerf, and almost renders them useless, a vanity item of sorts.
Flower Boots were fundamentally always meant to be a vanity item, with arguable benefit as a "minor builders tool", if such struck your fancy.

They were never intended to have the function which people later utilized them for. I don't consider this a nerf in the slightest, its an exploit fix.
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Flower Boots were fundamentally always meant to be a vanity item, with arguable benefit as a "minor builders tool", if such struck your fancy.

They were never intended to have the function which people later utilized them for. I don't consider this a nerf in the slightest, its an exploit fix.
Thing is, the method used in the exploit fix just added an extra step to the exploit instead of actually solving anything. The flowers still give critters as long as you unequip the boots, and because they can be equipped in vanity slots, this makes it incredibly easy to just carpet across a set of grass and destroy the flowers after taking them off. This is slower, sure, but it's definitely still there.

With this in mind, we can probably assume that just making the specific tiles in particular not drop the critters was just not feasible. Because it seems unlikely that a true full fix for this exploit is going to happen, I suggest that the nerf instead is that there is a global cooldown for when jungle critters can appear from jungle grass that is unrelated to the boots. Maybe 10 seconds for one critter? It would mean that the boots aren't actively detrimental to equip, because they currently make all grass fail to drop critters, but only while they're equipped.
 
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Terrablade101

Terrarian
@Leinfors can the solar pillar PLEASE be nerfed? It’s ridiculous how much harder it is than the other pillars. One main reason for this is the crawlderpies. Not only are they so freaking fast that they can easily come out of nowhere, but they also deal like 500 damage on master mode (yes I get it’s master but still). The crawlderpies also can only be hit from their tail, which makes it take longer to kill. If you stay on the ground, sure, you avoid crawlderpies, but now you have sonic the hedgehog enemies dashing at you, dealing tons of damage, and even shooting your projectiles back at you to deal damage! No other pillar has enemies as hard as solar, and I think it’s gotta be reworked.
 

MrD108

Official Terrarian
All in all, it's pretty unfair. Ninja armor pretends to be class-neutral armor, but the truth is, it's completely useless to a Summoner, because in addition to increasing the speed for a whole set (which is good), it only increases critical.
This way, the Mage, Warrior, and Ranger have armor dropping from King Slime, which they won't use anyway, because they have much better armor at this stage, and Summoner, who needs armor, even neutral, has no reason to wear Ninja Armor.
 

scientistB

Dungeon Spirit
can the solar pillar PLEASE be nerfed? It’s ridiculous how much harder it is than the other pillars. One main reason for this is the crawlderpies. Not only are they so freaking fast that they can easily come out of nowhere, but they also deal like 500 damage on master mode (yes I get it’s master but still). The crawlderpies also can only be hit from their tail, which makes it take longer to kill. If you stay on the ground, sure, you avoid crawlderpies, but now you have sonic the hedgehog enemies dashing at you, dealing tons of damage, and even shooting your projectiles back at you to deal damage! No other pillar has enemies as hard as solar, and I think it’s gotta be reworked.
At least the Solar Pillar can be better dealt with by taking the high ground and standing on an airborne platform or on the top of a hill, where ground enemies are much less a threat and you only have to deal with Corites.
Nebula however.
Good luck dealing with 100% random and nigh-unavoidable telefrags followed immediately by fast lasers that give you no room or time to react to.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
All in all, it's pretty unfair. Ninja armor pretends to be class-neutral armor, but the truth is, it's completely useless to a Summoner, because in addition to increasing the speed for a whole set (which is good), it only increases critical.
This way, the Mage, Warrior, and Ranger have armor dropping from King Slime, which they won't use anyway, because they have much better armor at this stage, and Summoner, who needs armor, even neutral, has no reason to wear Ninja Armor.
Ninja armor is fine, you can get it very early on. Unless you got lucky with Tim, ninja is the earliest melee/ranger/mage armor. Once you kill EoC you can get pumpkin armor which is 10% damage to all classes (including summon).
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
All in all, it's pretty unfair. Ninja armor pretends to be class-neutral armor, but the truth is, it's completely useless to a Summoner, because in addition to increasing the speed for a whole set (which is good), it only increases critical.
This way, the Mage, Warrior, and Ranger have armor dropping from King Slime, which they won't use anyway, because they have much better armor at this stage, and Summoner, who needs armor, even neutral, has no reason to wear Ninja Armor.
To be fair, King Slime can be killed by running in a single direction, and you don't even need to be fast. He's super easy and his summons aren't exactly difficult to get either. Plus his mount does Summon damage so if you're that desperate than use that.
 

Dragrath

Duke Fishron
You might be missing the part where Ranged has balance-dominance for large stretches of the game and generally doesn't need even an ounce of favoritism towards it.

IF I gave it a specific class damage (and I won't, because it is a purely damage-centric accessory), it would be Melee or Summoner, in all likelihood, purely from a balance perspective. Magic doesn't particularly need it, Ranged REALLY doesn't need it, and Melee/Summoner have the most catch-up work to do at the post-Dungeon->Wall of Flesh tier.

Of course, that is all to say nothing of the fact that I expect very few Ranged users will actually be at any sort of loss over the "loss" of Bone Glove-classic; this is probably a buff for Rangers any way you look at it, assuming players even use it. Admittedly, its hard to predict how popular an accessory will be in the long term, especially with limited slots. A part of me mourns for the loss of one of the few remaining vestiges of the "Thrown" class, but I don't think sacrificing this entire Expert boss drop for that cause was worth it. I'd rather it be useful (and I'm hoping people find that this is). Supplementary damage/DPS boosters are rather uncommon prior to Wall of Flesh.

EDIT: Note that the above doesn't mean I don't have buffs in store for various pieces of Ranged equipment. The more I look at Ranged, the more I find that it is a class characterized by a small/moderate number of weapons that fall very high above the average in potential, with a large quantity of underutilized weapons that fall far short of it. I've tried to take the approach of taking the edge off these "high performing outliers" while improving the under-utilized weapons/ammo, so that a more moderate average performance can be reached. Holy Arrow/Stormbow was the quintessential example of such an item, and Ranged players will note my improvements to Marrow, Ice Bow, Hallowed Repeater, and Phantom Phoenix as the other side of that balancing act. Even if true equality hasn't been reached, reducing the gap is an admirable goal, in my eyes.

Out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on the Rocket/Grenade/Proximity Launcher/Stynger changes? I haven't heard much about those (probably because pre-Frost Moon Rockets aren't often used).
I will miss the old bone glove as I liked its ricochet mechanics... Any way it could be added as a separate weapon drop? (say in Sketron's normal loot pool?)
If we want to bring the thread back on topic, how about we make a real suggestion?

This is not really an item, but it sort of is, and I don’t think I’ve seen it brought up in this thread and there isn’t anywhere else that I think this would fit.

Cracked Dungeon Bricks.

Conceptually, they are a great concept. Locking off portions of the dungeon, adding to the ancient feel and forcing you to be perceptive. They were also added by the devs to encourage more time to be spent in the dungeon. It’s really a great idea.

Until you spend three minutes at a time just digging through them.

To me, the dungeon has always been more about exploration and enemy combat, with its winding chasms and above-average monsters. The way they function currently, Dungeon Bricks change this in a negative way, making the dungeon feel more like mining than exploring, hurting the point of the dungeon.

My solution? If you break Cracked Dungeon Bricks, they are much more likely to cause other ones nearby to fall than they already are. This way, they can be kept in the dungeon as a way to seal off paths without forcing you to spend minutes on end digging them out just to unlock a new room. This would also make Pitfall traps much more dangerous.

And if we want to extend the time spent in the dungeon, you could make Golden Keys less common. This would not only encourage you to kill the enemies in the dungeon rather than running away, but would encourage you to backtrack and take note of locked chests rather than always having three spare keys on hand and unlocking as you go. I think this would be a much better way to make the dungeon last longer.

I know this has been brought up before, but I haven’t seen it on an official forum where the devs can take note of this criticism before.
Yes the cracked dungeon bricks not only slow everything down but make the take of trying to acquire every piece of dungeon furniture/decoration an exceedingly tedious task not to mention the loss of real estate for spawning of furniture and other decorations. This change regarding crack bricks would be most appreciated. I also was largely disappointed with the new dungeon generation no new dungeon specific traps no mechanisms to utilize other wire colors like the Lihzahrd temple... everything but the spike pits was a big disappointment really. Now while it is outside the scope of this thread I also wish there was another way to get some of the furniture particularly the colored dungeon furniture variants as there are both a lot of them and they are only able to spawn on one wall type. Gothic could stay pure lootables to fill the same role as they aren't as spawn restricted perhaps they could even get the missing set pieces since along with the Christmas special pine furniture I believe they are the only remaining incomplete furniture set. Also wish they had added more normal traps replacing the spike ball thing with a dedicated trap would be a nice change to stop them from hogging all the spawn slots without needing to constantly leave the dungeon... Basically the dungeon changes feel unfinished.
I’d object that 1.2 actually had the biggest postgame in the game’s history.

Once you cleared Plantera, you have several options: kill Golem, explore the Dungeon, fight the Moons, fight Fishron. All of these unlocked their own set of final weapons or gear, but they all built on each other rather than any one of them being the end. None of them were a "big finale" like Wall of Flesh or Moon Lord - that went to Plantera. That’s one of the things I miss from the 1.3 onward era - we have too little to do postgame.
I agree though it should be noted the devs want Mood lord to be a "true final boss" and thus have been resistant to adding any post Moon lord content. That said I feel there was a missed opportunity for a boss rush mode since those are a staple in a number of metroidvania type games that Terraria was heavily inspired by.
Imagine a mode where you fight off upgraded versions of the games bosses mixed in with upgraded waves of regular enemies? Alas such a thing would be new content which is outside the scope of things we might ever see even if everything just used the same sprites with different stats.>_<
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
Rather that that I would rather see some sort of armor set(s) that's just it's on special thing or some sort of utility set. That's more interesting. My long desire was some sort of hardmode upgrade to meteor armor but I would be up for any kind of strange armor.
Personally i don't like that design of armor sets because it's so linear. If you have meteor armor, you always want to be using the space gun as your primary weapon, there's no variety. At least class armor benefits all weapons of the class so you can have variety. I'm not for removing meteor armor, but with limited armor sets that there seems to be, i definitely don't want more.

Armor that benefits all classes currently doesn't really exist, and would encourage variety.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Personally i don't like that design of armor sets because it's so linear. If you have meteor armor, you always want to be using the space gun as your primary weapon, there's no variety. At least class armor benefits all weapons of the class so you can have variety. I'm not for removing meteor armor, but with limited armor sets that there seems to be, i definitely don't want more.

Armor that benefits all classes currently doesn't really exist, and would encourage variety.
Meteor is also a good general purpose magic armor, it has 21% magic damage and if you run out of mana you can switch to the space gun while your mana recharges.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
Meteor is also a good general purpose magic armor, it has 21% magic damage and if you run out of mana you can switch to the space gun while your mana recharges.
Yeah, you're right it does have utility for using a secondary weapon, mostly for knockback, but it doesn't encourage variety which is the point i'm trying to get across.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
I will miss the old bone glove as I liked its ricochet mechanics... Any way it could be added as a separate weapon drop? (say in Sketron's normal loot pool?)
The Bone Glove accessory's projectiles still ricochet the exact same way, they just do different amounts of damage and aren't fired from an independent weapon.
 

MrD108

Official Terrarian
The Meteorite Armor Set bonus should also affect the Laser Rifle and the Laser Machinegun, as both of these weapons are laser pistol types, as are the Space Gun and the Zapinator.
It wouldn't be an OP at all, because a Mage on Hardmode in Meteorite Armor, even with an endless Machinegun Laser, could fall almost instantly, so it would be a kind of Glass Cannon.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
+15% damage
It doesn't increase your number of summons, so i'd hardly call it armor that benefits all classes

Summoner's damage output comes from the fact that damage is multiplicative by the number of summons you have, so not having extra summons means that while you technically get higher dps with a straight damage increase it's so minor that it's practically uncomparable to the benefit other classes get from damage boosts if you don't have extra minions
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
The Meteorite Armor Set bonus should also affect the Laser Rifle and the Laser Machinegun, as both of these weapons are laser pistol types, as are the Space Gun and the Zapinator.
It wouldn't be an OP at all, because a Mage on Hardmode in Meteorite Armor, even with an endless Machinegun Laser, could fall almost instantly, so it would be a kind of Glass Cannon.
Maybe the reason that it affects the Zapinator is because it's supposed to be janky?
 

whoneedsnamestbh

Eye of Cthulhu
The issue with armors that benefit all classes including summoners is then you have to worry about how the buffs to the other classes would work in conjuction with summon weapons.

Let’s take Crystal Assassin Armor, and say we added 2 minions to it. Boom, now it has utility for both Summoners and all other classes - but then you consider that its defense is balanced around the other 3 classes too. Now, its defense is too strong for a summoner.

Additionally, what if you used a Megashark with your minions? Then both your Megashark and your minions have the damage boost along with the extra minions, and now the armor set is too strong.

So, let’s nerf the damage bonuses or the defensive bonuses offered by Crystal Assassin armor as compromise. Suddenly, it becomes unviable to other classes except for mixed Summoner, and now it’s just a Summoner armor instead of a generalist armor.

So, let’s nerf the capability of Summoner in the armor set instead. Let’s give it 1 extra minion instead. Now, a summoner has no reason to use the set over Spider because they’ll get much more from 2 extra minions and a greater damage boost than they would with the Megashark - and they can use the Megashark on spider armor anyway with a bit less damage. Now we’re back where we started where it has no niche for summoners.

This issue can be seen with the Forbidden Armor. Compared to Adamantite or Titanium, it’s too weak for a mage, so you realistically only would use it if you’re a summoner with mage support. Thus, a set intended to be for both mage and summoner ends up really just being for a version of summoner.

And, yeah, it wouldn’t hurt for Summoner to have extra armor sets, and considering other classes might not utilize the Crystal Assassin set anyway it wouldn’t hurt too much. But then we don’t have the unique generalist armor.

I’m all down for giving summoner more options for the game, but you gotta consider where summoner stands compared to other classes.
 
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