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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Derpling Ω

Plantera
I disagree and don't think they should act like that due them making it too easy.
While yes if you beat a boss once that proves you can beat the boss again but banners are too strong to be used on bosses especially in Expert Mode where you deal 2x damage to the bosses and gain 50% dmg reduction from enemy contact damage. It would just be too strong.
I mean, Relics would be an actually good unique incentive for killing bosses if they had the banner effect and would serve as actually unique master loot. Plus it would work thematically as they're supposed to represent you "mastered" the boss.
 

AquaNathan

Terrarian
I mean, Relics would be an actually good unique incentive for killing bosses if they had the banner effect and would serve as actually unique master loot. Plus it would work thematically as they're supposed to represent you "mastered" the boss.
Idk man, Master Mode and Expert Mode are the same thing except one is more tedious and unforgiving for no reason, saying that you mastered it doesn't make much sense to me as if you can beat the Eye of Cthulhu in Expert Mode, Master Mode is the exact same thing because there are no AI changes, just annoying stat increases that make the game painfully slow
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Idk man, Master Mode and Expert Mode are the same thing except one is more tedious and unforgiving for no reason, saying that you mastered it doesn't make much sense to me as if you can beat the Eye of Cthulhu in Expert Mode, Master Mode is the exact same thing because there are no AI changes, just annoying stat increases that make the game painfully slow
At least if they did it, master mode would have some actual significant difference. I'm totally with you there though (in fact I was one of the first people to rant about how lazy I felt master mode's implementation was), I just want something, anything, to set Master apart.
 

AquaNathan

Terrarian
Remove True Eye of Cthulhu contact damage but make it hover closer to moonlord (and maybe have syncornised attacks)

Not sure if most people find this an issue but when you release a TEoC it automatically lunges into the player dealing contact which I find very annoying because if you don't have any shield accessories to remove knockback you can get thrown inot multiple attacks and you can barely do anything about it because of it

My 2nd suggestion is because moonlord has always been a boss similar to many bosses in the game where its just run in 1 direction to avoid its attacks, when this happens during the moonlord fight the TEoCs are too slow to keep up with moonlord making the fight way too easy because the attacks end up dissapearing before even reaching you.

I put the syncronised attacks in brackets because it can either balance the fight or make it too easy because it essentially makes it so you have to fight 1 TEoC, tho I still think it would be better than it currently is because the Eyes will basically never hit you if you move in 1 consitant direction, which is what a lot of people do
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
There was something in the changelogs about fixing up their synchronization, don't recall the exact details.
When Yorai designed Moon Lord's attacks, they were supposed to fit into a pattern that was consistent. All of the parts of the body were supposed to be on a cycle that matched up, so that, if you learned his attack pattern, you could hop into the fight at any point, and know what was coming next.

But it turned out, at some point during the end-stages of 1.3, one or more of the parts was changes to no longer match this timing pattern, so that for every "cycle" of battle that happened, the different parts became more and more desynchronized from each other by a few more seconds, making the fight harder to read.

As this was not intentional, it was changed when we tweaked the amount of time that the forehead eye was open, and should fit a more strict pattern now. (This was changed back in 1.4 though, there are no pending changes to Moon Lord for 1.4.1).
 

AquaNathan

Terrarian
Bosses should take up more npc slots or flat out disable enemy spawns when they're alive.

When im fighting EoL it should only be the me vs EoL and I shouldn't have to die because a green slime spawned for no reason and launched me into her projectiles, especially on higher difficulty modes like expert or master mode where enemies do high amounts of damage, it makes fights really unfair.
 

ShinyLegendary

Terrarian
Don't know if this has been suggested already, but I feel like drills should be affected by mining speed. Pickaxes have more range than drills, and they can outspeed drills, because of buffs and accessories. That makes drills have basically no use.
 

Altaire

Terrarian
As I had been hoping, I got approval to do a bit of a preview from the balance change log for 1.4.1!

I decided to select the Accessory section, because I think it has a nice mix of minor stuff, quality of life, and some fun tinker boosts that I think will be appreciated by people of many classes, rather than selecting something like Melee.

The whole balance changelog is about 27 pages long. The following section is 2.5 pages of that. I hope you all enjoy. :)




Accessories

Band of Regeneration/Charm of Myths (Buff)
- Increased healing gain from 0.5 HP per second to 1 HP per second

Band of Starpower/Panic Necklace (Buff)
- (Cross-listing from Crafting Changes) Band of Starpower and Panic Necklace are now more easily available in all worlds. They can be crafted in a Graveyard at a Tinkerer's Workshop, by taking one of them and combining it with a Life or Mana Crystal. Band of Starpower + Life Crystal = Panic Necklace. Panic Necklace + Mana Crystal = Band of Starpower.

Bone Glove (Rework)
- This item has been completely overhauled and turned into an accessory
- When equipped, the player will shoot Crossbones towards their cursor whenever they are attacking, once per second. Consider it like a sword projectile, except it works for every weapon.
- The bones deal 25 class-neutral damage, but additionally ignore up to 25 enemy defense.
- Now also has vanity visibility in the Gloves spot
- Note: In practice, this should allow the Bone Gloves to be simultaneously viable for more classes than just Ranged, and also give it a bit more longevity

Brain of Confusion (Nerf)
- Reduced the Critical chance bonus of the Mind Trick buff from 20% to 10%.
- Reduced the duration of Mind Trick by 1 second

Celestial Cuffs (Buff)
- Now has the +20 mana bonus that its component accessories granted

Diving Helmet and all of its tinkers (Buff)
- Increased the breath capacity bonus by 50%

Feral Claws and Titan Glove (Rework / Buff)
- Moved the "gives autoswing for Melee weapons" perk to Feral Claws, making it available earlier for players. This perk still continues up the tinker chain, it is simply no longer present on Titan Glove specifically
- Titan Glove now has a new perk that increases the size of (eligible) melee weapons by 10%. This perk is also present on all of its tinkers; however, the effect does not stack.

Fledgling Wings and Lucky Horseshoe (Re-Tiering)
- The Lucky Horseshoe is no longer found in Sky Chests, and has been added to the underground Gold Chest loot pool
- In its place, Fledgling Wings have been added to Sky Chests and Sky Crates

Flesh Knuckles/Berserker Gloves (Buff)
- Defense increased from 7 to 8

Fire Gauntlet (Buff)
- Increased the 10% Damage and Melee Speed bonus to 12%
- Gains the new benefit added to the Titan Glove (see Titan Glove)
- Gains the new benefit added to the Magma Stone (see Magma Stone)

Hero Shield (Buff)
- Defense increased from 7 to 10

Honeycomb (and Bee Cloak, Honey Balloon, Stinger Necklace, and Sweetheart Necklace) (Buff / Rework)
- The base damage of the Bees generated by these has been increased from 7 to 13. If using a Hive Pack, this damage is 18.
- This damage is multiplied by 1.5x in Expert mode, and 2x in Master mode
- Additionally, if hit while wearing any of these accessories, the player gains the Honey buff for 5 seconds

Jellyfish Necklace and all of its tinkers (Buff)
- Now lets off an extremely faint glow when out of water (less than the Shadow Orb light pet)
- Dramatically increased the brightness when in water

Lava Charm (Buff)
- Doubled its spawn rate, giving it a 1/20 chance to be found in Lava-layer chests or Lava fishing crates

Magma Stone (Buff)
- Now inflicts a special version of On Fire that deals 15 DPS instead of 4

Molten Quiver (Buff)
- Technically a bug fix, but Wooden Arrows converted to Flaming Arrows by using this accessory now properly gain the +2 damage that Flaming Arrows have. This bonus is only applied to Wooden Arrows, if using the Quiver with superior arrows it will not apply the bonus (as it would be using the superior damage bonus of those arrows instead)

Obsidian Rose (Buff)
- Increased the lava damage reduction from 30 to 45. This change applies to all of its tinkers, however, as a consequence, lava damage has been moved to its own immunity timer, as the change would allow lava to very easily be reduced to 1 damage with the proper loadout.
- Is now a component in the Lava Waders, extending its lava damage reduction to the Lava Waders, Hellfire Treads, and Terraspark Boots. This change is retroactive for people who have already crafted those items, of course!

Panic Necklace/Sweetheart Necklace (Buff)
- Increased duration of the Panic! buff from 5 to 8 seconds

Pygmy Necklace (Re-Tiering)
- Is now sold by the Witch Doctor in pre-Hardmode, giving summoning accessories some earlier-game accessibility (he still only sells it at night, however!)

Star Cloak, Bee Cloak, Star Veil, and Mana Cloak (Buff)
- The base damage of the Stars generated by these accessories has been increased from 30 to 75. In addition, these stars will ignore up to 25 enemy defense.
- This damage is multiplied by 2x in Expert mode, and 3x in Master mode (the defense penetration remains unchanged)


There are some really smart changes in here, imo. I'm very much looking forward to trying them out. Accessory balance is always something I've had issue with, and this is a very big step in the right direction. It'll make itemization a lot more interesting.
 

Mail

Official Terrarian
Don't know if this has been suggested already, but I feel like drills should be affected by mining speed. Pickaxes have more range than drills, and they can outspeed drills, because of buffs and accessories. That makes drills have basically no use.
Just a reminder from the 1.4 changelog:
- All drills and chainsaws now dig faster than their non-mechanical counterparts, but have shorter range. Additionally, optimized digging loadouts still perform better on pickaxes/axes, but drills and chainsaws will be faster on non-optimized loadouts
Are you arguing that against that design change? They should always be faster than pickaxes when the player has no mining speed buffs.

The required speed advantage for drills to maintain usefulness increases when mining speed buffs are strong and convenient to use. Celestial Shell/Stone and the well fed buff are extremely popular and give a significant mining speed buff. Just those two give 20-30% mining speed. Pickaxes also get an additional speed boost from prefixes. Rounding error can magnify this advantage for both mining speed buffs and prefixes. This is why the base mining speed of a drill needs to be much faster than the equivalent pickaxe.

Regardless of whether drills have sufficient speed to fairly compete with pickaxes, drills should always be useful for players who refuse to devote an accessory slot to an Ancient Chisel and can't be bothered to keep buffs active.
 

M1rakpak

Terrarian
It is not. This was not a change that was made lightly in the first place, and it was mostly done based on the evaluation that Melee is typically underpowered for much of progression. This was intended as one of many minor "boosts" to Melee to help it reclaim a little bit of its lost edge. If that extended to Ranged-Arrows as well, then not only would that be buffing one of the STRONGEST classes in the game, but it would effectively be nullifying all of the gain made to Melee.

If Melee catching up with Ranged is the goal, and I buff both Melee and Ranged the same amount, then there is no net gain towards the goal.

It may be perceived as inconsistent, and I can acknowledge this to be the a tricky issue. However, the same arguments that aided the missing 2% being brought back to Fire Gauntlets worked because Melee needed the love. Won't work the same on Ranged. I'm hoping the +2 damage fix will be at least a moderate compensation.
Apologies in advance for poor english

I guess it's too late to discuss weapon affiliation. But I want to post it anyway.

So, from my POV throwable weapon should be melee. Simple logic behind this: more physical strength you use to throw smth - more physical damage you will deal.
I do understand, that’s this contradicts with Redigit statement about weapon affiliation.
But melee is the worst class from the start of the game till early HM. It will be good to have smth with descent range of atack (like yo-yo), but more "serious" weapon, you know.

Same logic applies to the summoners weapon. Whips - is a definitely good idea, but what if we give some mage weapons to summoner? Like smth that work around live entity. For example - bee/wasp gun or bat stuf. If it's crate insects/animals/elementals, so why not give it to summoner, so he could do smth useful with his own weapon while his minions fighting for him. + it will use mana, which amor set gives, so it win-win situation.

It's not a big problem, but I feel that summoner is still subclass comparing to other 3.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Apologies in advance for poor english

I guess it's too late to discuss weapon affiliation. But I want to post it anyway.

So, from my POV throwable weapon should be melee. Simple logic behind this: more physical strength you use to throw smth - more physical damage you will deal.
I do understand, that’s this contradicts with Redigit statement about weapon affiliation.
But melee is the worst class from the start of the game till early HM. It will be good to have smth with descent range of atack (like yo-yo), but more "serious" weapon, you know.

Same logic applies to the summoners weapon. Whips - is a definitely good idea, but what if we give some mage weapons to summoner? Like smth that work around live entity. For example - bee/wasp gun or bat stuf. If it's crate insects/animals/elementals, so why not give it to summoner, so he could do smth useful with his own weapon while his minions fighting for him. + it will use mana, which amor set gives, so it win-win situation.

It's not a big problem, but I feel that summoner is still subclass comparing to other 3.
Effectively, all balance changes are closed right now anyway, but those changes would probably have been too significant to make in this review pass even if they hadn't been.
 

M1rakpak

Terrarian
Effectively, all balance changes are closed right now anyway, but those changes would probably have been too significant to make in this review pass even if they hadn't been.
Ah, yes. My bad. Find out about it on 118 page.
Too late and a lot of changes required. I understand.
 

MrD108

Official Terrarian
While I'm not sure about throwing and melee weapon changes, I am wholeheartedly in favor of summoner weapons. I agree that the Bee Gun, Wasp Gun, and especially Bat Scepter should be Summoner weapons, because they call upon living creatures to attack after all. Summoner has the fewest weapons in the game, so it would be perfect.
Also, before Hardmode has only one armor, which adds +2 minion slots. There should be a prior armor that adds +1 minion slot and be available somewhere along with the first mage and ranger armor.
 
The best bet for an early summoner armor without adding anything new would be Pumpkin, imo. Maybe the 10% damage could change to 10% summon damage and it could be given an extra minion

-It isn’t “off” thematically, summoner armors are often a bit more “strange” than traditional armors, ex. Bee or Tiki.

-It’s obtainable relatively early while not being there the instant you start, and is fairly “hidden”, meaning that experienced summoners have something to fall back to not get pummeled. This would also help make Summoner have a broader prehardmode “niche” and not just really exist after Queen Bee. However, new players can’t just snag the bonuses of an extra minion right away. Only issue with this is Halloween, but Christmas gives some good starting loot relatively quickly so it’d be fair if Halloween did too.

-It isn’t a very big loss for other classes, as most people won’t bother with Pumpkin currently and rather just use ore armors or skip to Ninja or Crimtane.

-The low defense for its state of the game would encourage players to only use it if they plan on running a summon build, as if they aren’t, they would often opt to go for other, more defensive or universally offensive options. Therefore it doesn’t stick out as an overpowered option for hybrids.

Just a random thought I had, not really a big deal at all but it’s there
 
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