Zero Leord1
Skeletron Prime
I third (or fourth) that motion. Getting so much iron does take a long time. Trust me, I know...
Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread
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CrabBar
Official Terrarian
Well, as far as I have been investigating, Stormbow + Holy arrows combo is about 50% nerf on average, using both the DPS meter and kill times of various bosses (statistically 28% from bow, and practically 30% from arrows? they are multiplicative by the way, so it does form 50% total). That's a lot lower of a hit than proposed 75%.
Of course, in ideal case scenario which is coiling Destroyer (he guarantees all the piercing stars will hit), arrows themselves suffer 60+% nerf (halved hits of stars, halved damage of stars + defense affecting low damage more), so said Destroyer now dies as long as other mechs from that bow, that's a definite improvement from 1.3 situation.
However, on single target, especially big one like bosses, piercing meant close to nothing but also capped the amount of stars that will land hits to 6/s or lower. For reference, currently Stormbow produces up to 19 (!) stars per second. Even considering a lot of them will miss the initial target, it's still a boost to single target performance nonetheless. Minor detail to mention is that those stars usually come in same bursts as arrows do, so missing a few barrages will still net a similar ratio between "nerfed" and original states.
Do I want Stormbow to be nerfed even more into the ground? Probably not. Do I prefer if there was more field to weapons other than Stormbow in ""competitive"" gameplay? Indeed.
It hurts to say but probably that bow has to become a bit less friendly to use in order to keep that insane power. Maybe no autofire (although clicking out feels terrible on most weapons), perhaps a charged shot (albeit that's way too far from what that thread can achieve), possibly a lot lower firerate but higher damage to compensate (so every shot is impactful but also has to be managed carefully). Something to make it not a spray-and-pray melter.
Official Terrarian
I made a Terraria Tweaker 2 plugin for 1.4.0.5 that adds PreClick item use.
Mod moved to separate post.
I have tested it briefly and have yet to observe any negative side effects.
If you don't want to run my mod, you can make the same code modification I made instead and test that way. I only added 3 lines of code.
Edit: I've been testing my mod a bit more and it is working flawlessly. Early game shotguns, bows, staves, guns, boomerangs, broadswords, spears, all feel amazing to use with this change.
Mod moved to separate post.
I have tested it briefly and have yet to observe any negative side effects.
If you don't want to run my mod, you can make the same code modification I made instead and test that way. I only added 3 lines of code.
All changes are limited to the function Player.ItemCheck
At the top of the function add:
after the call to ItemCheck_StartActualUse() add:
The following code will be enclosed in an if statement:
It will be changed to:
The end result is that if you pressed a button, but nothing happened, the game will act as if you pressed again next frame.
UI code interacts directly with the button inputs instead of using controlUseItem, so this change is unlikely to require re-testing all UI behavior.
At the top of the function add:
Code:
bool didUseItem = false;after the call to ItemCheck_StartActualUse() add:
Code:
didUseItem = true;The following code will be enclosed in an if statement:
Code:
this.releaseUseItem = !this.controlUseItem;It will be changed to:
Code:
if (didUseItem || !this.controlUseItem || !this.releaseUseItem)
{
this.releaseUseItem = !this.controlUseItem;
}The end result is that if you pressed a button, but nothing happened, the game will act as if you pressed again next frame.
UI code interacts directly with the button inputs instead of using controlUseItem, so this change is unlikely to require re-testing all UI behavior.
Edit: I've been testing my mod a bit more and it is working flawlessly. Early game shotguns, bows, staves, guns, boomerangs, broadswords, spears, all feel amazing to use with this change.
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There were three nerfs.
1 - A direct damage nerf to the bow itself, which trickles down to the arrows and the stars.
2 - The aforementioned star changes (no more pierces, half damage), which, while on paper reduces the maximum damage from 5x to 2x, is also slightly more subject to defense, because its 1 full damage hit and 2x 50% damage hits
3 - The desynergy, which generates less Holy Arrows on average when fired with the Stormbow. Less Holy Arrows, less Stars as well.
I will note also that I said it was the maximum possible damage, not the average damage. On a single target, the loss of piercing has minimal impact, but then, Stormbow excelled against multi-target bosses anyway, so that was not an unintended result.
I doubt we will be seeing total reworks to the bow. Thus far, I'm fairly satisfied that the current adjustment is a decent balance between taking the extreme edge off the weapon's outrageous damage potential, without gutting it entirely. Its still a very powerful, and viable weapon, and that isn't a bad thing. I don't want to take away people's fun toys. And part of that was improving the performance of some of its competitors (Hallowed Repeater, Phantom Phoenix), to try and hit a better middle ground.
SsIras
Terrarian
Hallowed Repeater and Phantom Phoenix turned great, but what about it's other competitors/loot brothers, Crystal Vile Shard and Flying Knife.
I don't mean to have them as powerful as Stormbow, but I do find that the loot pool of a boss/mini-boss should never be disappointing. CVS was buffed, but I did find it reasonable to give it more damage, and Flying Knife is fun and a bit exploitable, but weak nevertheless.
And on a hot take that I'm not even sure if I agree myself, maybe making Key of Night and Key of Light post-Mech Boss items would solve the problem, you could still find Stormbow, but it would be much harder.
Melt in the Sun
Terrarian
I think Crystal Vile Shard is definitely powerful enough now! It's very viable in master mode, and I just took 50,000 hp off the coiled Destroyer in a matter of seconds. Yikes.
JohannSimm
Retinazer
I wish I knew why. It seems like the most logical solution. Especially considering that a new weapon was introduced that works the same way. Was there any specific reason for this rejection? Was it mainly to do with weapon identity, or wishing to not alter how it was originally conceived?
I know it's not likely for any adjustments to be made, but an alternate fix to Deadalus Stormbow could be to just disable piercing, explosions, and falling stars on arrows fired with it. Which would also get rid of the overpowered interaction, and allow the arrow quantities to be made even again.
It may also be possible that Holy Arrows are still overpowered, and that the issue is with them and not the Stormbow. They still break the Tsunami and the Phantasm. Some potential fixes:
– Holy Arrows only summon a single star. The star still deals 50% arrow damage.
– Holy Arrows deal 7 damage instead of 13. The falling stars now deal a flat damage value (like 13) that isn't affected by arrow damage.
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SsIras
Terrarian
I don't know, it's definitively way better than it used to be. I'm questioning myself if a buff would be necessary, but I still don't think it is a very exciting weapon to get from Hallowed Mimic. Daedulus is still much better for most cases, Crystal seem to be slightly better at dealing damage against the Destroyer, but it's also more risky to use (for a more squishy class). Of course, seeing as Strormbow is already EXCELLENT at dealing with the Destroyer, this seems appropriate. CVS is also more usable in caves, but that's Stormbow main weakness anyway. The thing is, against single targets, or even just groups of spaced targets, it's very hard to deal damage with CVS, and yeah, that is also an intended weakness, but it makes it disappointing for other purposes (include boss fights Stormbow is still good at, such as Twins and Queen Slime), while we have magic weapons that are easier to get and can do both really well (Crystal Storm and Cursed Flames).
I don't think it needs a huge buff, maybe just increase damage from 25 to 30.
I don't remember the reason, I'm not sure I was given one.
We discussed 1-star with piercing vs 2-stars with no piercing, and settled on 2 stars. 1-star with piercing would only further reinforce the "its extra good on segments/multi-target" problem, while 2 stars gives it a more well rounded versatility. I think Yorai also felt that 1 star was less exciting than 2 stars.
JohannSimm
Retinazer
It's a pity. So many Hardmode bows have similar functionality: Ice Bow, Shadowflame Bow, Marrow, Pulse Bow, etc.
I have another suggestion: Holy Arrows deal lower damage (like 7) instead of 13. The falling stars now deal a flat damage value (like 13) that isn't affected by arrow damage. This change might do something to mitigate the multiplicative nature of the Holy Arrows' damage.
I understand completely if none of these suggestions are implemented. I must sound very pedantic, but I was editing my above post with this suggestion when you replied to it. This is probably the last thing I'll say on this subject.
I'd also like to thank the team for doing their best to fix Deadalus Stormbow within the prescribed limitations. It may not be the cleanest solution, but it mostly does its job.
(Also, is Holy Arrows' interaction with multi-shot bows like Tsunami, Eventide, and Phantasm considered problematic? I only ask because those bows have similar functionality to the Daedalus Stormbow, and they didn't receive a similar nerf. I assume it's because they're post-Destroyer bows.)
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SsIras
Terrarian
As for Flying Knife, I think it did be really fun if it hit the enemy for A TON of damage, but couldn't hit that enemy again for a while after that, but that would be a complete rework, so I don't know if it has any chance of being approved. It's a tough weapon to balance, since it either doing absolutely nothing to protect you or bouncing in a wall and causing a lot of damage to a single target.
What I could think would improve its performance is to increase its accuracy but lower the base damage, so it's more consistent and benefits less from bouncing in walls to deal more damage.
What I could think would improve its performance is to increase its accuracy but lower the base damage, so it's more consistent and benefits less from bouncing in walls to deal more damage.
qwerty3.14
Terrarian
While we're on the subject of biome mimic weapons... can we please get the blade staff moved to the hallowed mimic's loot pool.
The palette of the blade staff fits with the other hallowed mimic weapons.
The hallowed mimic also has only 4 drops while the crimson and corrupt mimic have 5.
I'm tired of ending up using the spider staff for 80% of hardmode simply because all the good minions between it and the xeno staff are super rare, this would help with that.
The palette of the blade staff fits with the other hallowed mimic weapons.
The hallowed mimic also has only 4 drops while the crimson and corrupt mimic have 5.
I'm tired of ending up using the spider staff for 80% of hardmode simply because all the good minions between it and the xeno staff are super rare, this would help with that.
qwerty3.14
Terrarian
I actually like the way the flying knife is, it's certainly not the best weapon but it can do some cool tricks like flying around walls, or if you want accuracy you can make it fly into the walls and slide along them. Altough it doesn't do a lot of damage it can inflict ichor which is pretty good for a long range infite pierce weapon.
A small damage buff wouldn't break the game, but I'd prefer it's flight pattern remains in tact.
Mental Mouse
Terrarian
The thing about the Daedalus Bow is that its power is structural. Considering also the other comments, I think you're going to get OP-ness any time you let the player chain two or more multiplicative effects.
ETA: Which actually suggests a better solution than tweaking the particular bow: Make it a general rule that any time Holy arrows get multiplied, only one of them summons stars. Or for a lesser nerf, any time they get multiplied, they only summon one star each.
ETA: Which actually suggests a better solution than tweaking the particular bow: Make it a general rule that any time Holy arrows get multiplied, only one of them summons stars. Or for a lesser nerf, any time they get multiplied, they only summon one star each.
qwerty3.14
Terrarian
I don't think holy arrows need to be nerfed any further, or at least not until crystal bullets are nerfed, holy arrows spawn 2 projectiles that do 50% the damage of the arrow from the sky. Crystal bullets spawn 3 projectiles that do 50% of the damage of the bullet right at the location of impact. Holy arrows are practically watered down crystal bullets at this point.
Mental Mouse
Terrarian
Since there are guns that multiply bullets, then yes, a similar nerf for crystal bullets -- but notice, in both cases it's specifically if they're multiplied. This would replace the existing Holy Daedalus Bow nerf. The point is to pick on the less numerous multiplying ammo rather than the several launchers that multiply them, and do so with a general rule instead of ad hoc hacks.
I can't really say I agree. If a new player was to use a bow or gun that explicitly says shoots multiple bullets, they'd expect the same multiple bullets to have the same effect. I don't think limiting an ammunition's special effect to a single shot/arrow works. An appropriate fix to the Daedalus Stormbow would have been placing it in a higher tier, and replacing the weapon with another bow.
Mental Mouse
Terrarian
But moving it to a higher tier then makes all of its capability unavailable at the lower tier -- it's certainly intrinsically powerful (attack from shelter), but it's only a specific usage (holy arrows) that's setting off the cries of "OP" here. What I'm saying is limit the ammo in the specific context where it makes multiple bows (Tsunami etc, as mentioned above) OP.
J Bame
Terrarian
I don't think Holy Arrows are the issue with Stormbow anymore, everyone will just move to Ichor or Cursed Arrows if that combo keeps getting nerf after nerf, since those arrows aren't that far behind. Hell, I actually think Jester's Arrows or literally just Hellfire are a better choice against The Destroyer now after Holy's nerf.
The issue with it, I'd say, is the fact that it's still super overstatted for its tier. It's still stronger than 1.3 Chloro Shotbow (a Pre-Plantera weapon, which was and still is considered one of the best weapons of its tier) in base DPS, and that's what makes it kill bosses so well compared to other things. If I had to nerf it again i'd just lower the base damage to like, 30 and hope that's enough.
The issue with it, I'd say, is the fact that it's still super overstatted for its tier. It's still stronger than 1.3 Chloro Shotbow (a Pre-Plantera weapon, which was and still is considered one of the best weapons of its tier) in base DPS, and that's what makes it kill bosses so well compared to other things. If I had to nerf it again i'd just lower the base damage to like, 30 and hope that's enough.
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CrabBar
Official Terrarian
That's also true. In fact, I have been experimenting a bit with ammo types, Ichor is probably the best boss killer after Holy, new Chlorophyte fills the whole screen with semi-homing projectiles and nets serious damage to bosses too (2:22 for Master Mode Empress fight, with mostly damage loadout, but: Titanium armor instead of Shroomite/OOA mix; no double scope; no Destroyer Emblem; and ineffective positioning).
Another thing that I have remembered recently is that Stormbow is actually somewhat accurate compared to similar weapons. Gatligator has quite powerful statistics, but its' spread at 30 blocks distance is bigger than Stormbow's supposedly inaccurate bombarding. Let alone that vertical aiming negates some of terrain/positioning issues for inaccurate weaponry. Probably an edge that separates niche insane weapon from just insane.
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