Pigman Δ
Retinazer
That's true, but that's just the Tinkerer. You could cater to the Tinkerer's needs (easy) and ignore the rest if you wanted.
Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Leinfors
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Lythael
The Destroyer
You are missing the point.
Yes i could do that but that's the point there is no diversity anymore.
If i want it to work how it was before i need to cater to the NPC needs and make specific builds in specific place to achieve this.
Or else i have to deal with inflated buy / reforge prices and reduced reward chances.
Also you bring in "Expert" and "Master" coin drops increase to this. What about players who play on non Expert modes?
They get the worse of it as there is no coin drop increase in said modes.
Also having neutral prices would literally hurt no one and would make Hotel builders happy too while literally not touching how biome towns builders do their builds.
The penalty is literally unnecessary.
Why are you so against this? Why do you insist that penalty should be placed for those who prefer NPC Hotels (regardless how small you think it may be - tho its not its pretty signifficant for certain items and services).
Lythael
The Destroyer
It is when you go along with it yes.
But there is no point of it to be punishing for players who don't want to go along with it.
All i really wish is that the price penalty / reward chances penalty was toned down to "neutral" if NPCs are unhappy.
That's it nothing else that would make people who actually enjoy this system, unhappy or ruin their way of building.
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Pigman Δ
Retinazer
That's very true, but I don't think Red would allow for it, especially this late in development. But bad torch luck was removed in a 1.4.0.x patch, so we never know.
EDIT: Just found this. I think the Star Cloak buff was overdone a little.
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qwerty3.14
Terrarian
maybye the damage of the star cloak should scale with the damage recieved so it does less damage when you only take 1 damage, but does a lot more when a hit cleans off half your healath
SsIras
Terrarian
Dunno about this, it's not easily broken as this strategy requires a full build to work and with a lot more preparation than say, pre-1.4 fetid baghnakhs, and is also very prone to failing.
I think Star Cloak is alright as it is, as it's use outside of prep boss fights is still very niche.
Man, you guys . . . stressin me out.
1.4 Community: "Buff Vampire Frogs they are too weak!"
*buffs Vampire Frogs by 2 damage and logistical improvements*
1.4.1 Community: "Nerf Vampire Frogs they are too strong!"
I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Imp and Hornet changes you guys are asking for. If that means Flinx and Vampire Frog MUST be nerfed to allow them to be an upgrade, IDK, I guess that'll have to be how it'll be. But it sounds like another player-requested change that'll just make people mad at me again. I'm starting to see a trend here.
Funny thing is, Hornet got a proportionally stronger buff for its raw damage, particularly in relation to defense mechanics, so its odd that it fell further behind somehow.
Some other subjects to chime in on:
1. Town Unhappiness is not going away. I know its a common topic, both before and after the changes in 1.4.1, but I'm just going to save you guys the time and say its not in the cards for review. And we certainly aren't removing the Town System.
2. The change to town detection range was literally made in response to player feedback. Apparently everyone who asked for it forgot, and now they are all mad. I don't really care, it was a change made to make players happier and apparently it only made them mad, so whatever, I'll probably revert it or reduce it. I'm tired of hearing about it and its frustrating because it was based entirely on player feedback in the first place.
3. I'll re-evaluate Obsidian Armor, it was a big experiment and I knew some big numbers were being thrown around. Should be easy enough to downtweak a bit.
4. Not sure what to do with Star Cloak, it was widely considered useless before, and if its too strong now, I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm concerned a middle ground solution will fall solidly back into "useless". Maybe just removing the defense penetration will be enough.
Dislike vs Hate isn't kinda cosmetic as you say, but its an indicator of have far gone it is. Each additional NPC over the limit increases the penalty, so it has use as an indicator of how many people are present.
As for the 3->4 change, I'll have to investigate it.
1.4 Community: "Buff Vampire Frogs they are too weak!"
*buffs Vampire Frogs by 2 damage and logistical improvements*
1.4.1 Community: "Nerf Vampire Frogs they are too strong!"
I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Imp and Hornet changes you guys are asking for. If that means Flinx and Vampire Frog MUST be nerfed to allow them to be an upgrade, IDK, I guess that'll have to be how it'll be. But it sounds like another player-requested change that'll just make people mad at me again. I'm starting to see a trend here.
Funny thing is, Hornet got a proportionally stronger buff for its raw damage, particularly in relation to defense mechanics, so its odd that it fell further behind somehow.
Some other subjects to chime in on:
1. Town Unhappiness is not going away. I know its a common topic, both before and after the changes in 1.4.1, but I'm just going to save you guys the time and say its not in the cards for review. And we certainly aren't removing the Town System.
2. The change to town detection range was literally made in response to player feedback. Apparently everyone who asked for it forgot, and now they are all mad. I don't really care, it was a change made to make players happier and apparently it only made them mad, so whatever, I'll probably revert it or reduce it. I'm tired of hearing about it and its frustrating because it was based entirely on player feedback in the first place.
3. I'll re-evaluate Obsidian Armor, it was a big experiment and I knew some big numbers were being thrown around. Should be easy enough to downtweak a bit.
4. Not sure what to do with Star Cloak, it was widely considered useless before, and if its too strong now, I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm concerned a middle ground solution will fall solidly back into "useless". Maybe just removing the defense penetration will be enough.
Dislike vs Hate isn't kinda cosmetic as you say, but its an indicator of have far gone it is. Each additional NPC over the limit increases the penalty, so it has use as an indicator of how many people are present.
As for the 3->4 change, I'll have to investigate it.
Adventurer32
Terrarian
Hey just wanted to say the community definitely appreciates the balance changes overall, you just end up seeing the ones complaining more because most of the people who are happy with them don't bother to say anything. Just wanted to pop in to say thanks for helping balance the game, I really appreciate The True Night's Edge/Excalibur being useful for more than 5 seconds now. I know I definitely had something I wanted to suggest but I forget what it is now, so might pop in again later.
J Bame
Terrarian
Gotta find the middle ground, man. Honestly the hitbox change and the local immunity buffs made them so consistent that I don't think the 18% damage buff was needed.
I think the issue here is that it just shouldn't proc off of lava/spikes. Either that, or remove the Expert/Master scaling on 1 damage pings.
whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
That would just be a fatal hit to Summoner. In my opinion, it’s better to have viable options that are available out of order than to be completely too weak the entire time.
Flinx doesn’t deserve a nerf imo, it’s only slightly
more capable than Slimes considering its highly mobile but also bounces off of the enemies and can only hit so fast.
Vampire is overtuned, but honestly could be fixed with a damage reversion from ~13 to 10 or maybe 9, if we keep the full body hitbox and iframes. This would give it a space above Flinxes without being busted.
If Imp is out of the book, that’s fine, but I assumed Hornet could get more attention since it was changed in 1.4.1. Something simple like a fire rate up or another damage boost would be helpful.
However, I don’t think it’s fair to nerf the viable options just so the unviable options that come later in progression will be used by players, as this is just a round hit to Summoners overall. Vampire Frog deserves a nerf, but it’s not fair to punish Flinxes for Hornets being underwhelming, for example.
I'll probably ask Yorai about making it not proc off 1-damage pings period, there are a few mechanics that require 2+ for that.
My concern is that I had to buff Imp because it wasn't strong enough compared to Hornet, and then I noticed Hornet wasn't strong enough either, and then if I buff Hornet again, then I need to buff Imp again, and its just this never ending cycle. Some changes have systemic consequences (case in point: Brand of the Inferno vs True Excalibur) and if I have to buff Hornet then I have to buff Imp again and that's a hard sell when I've already buffed them both.
qwerty3.14
Terrarian
Vampire frogs don't use local immunity, they use static immunity, the issue is that the frog's new hitbox attacks very quickly.
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Lythael
The Destroyer
That sounds like this was indeed spitefuly added to force players to build how devs wanted to and punish players who want to build their way.
Despite player protests about this system before and after its release - which you pretty much admitted that there were a lot of complaints about this system.
Same situation as with Torch Bad Luck it seems but worse cause its not going to be changed..
That's an incorrect conclusion. I'm saying this because my authority to adjust things does not extend to overriding Red's game design systems entirely, and so if the request in this thread is for me to do that, then I'm politely informing you guys that it is not something I'm going to be able to do, rather than falsely imply that it is something I might be able to do and then not follow through.
Lythael
The Destroyer
Well Red was the one who added Torch Bad Luck in the first place on us and didn't he?
And now you say punishing players for building how they want was also his idea. Yea sorry but that still sounds like it was added to spite players with this unhapiness penalty despite their protests before and after this system went live.
Guess we have no choice but to wait for Tmodloader 1.4 and revert ourselves this pointless penalty for building our towns how we want and not how Red wants.
whoneedsnamestbh
Retinazer
That’s fair.
IMO, Hornet does have a bit of room to rise up before it outclasses Imp, as Hornet fires only slightly faster for a 6 damage difference and weaker debuff. But if it can’t be adjusted further, I’d see why.
Honestly, this may sound outlandish to everyone but it may be the best course of action to keep Vampire Frogs powerful? They can be tuned down slightly, ofc, but it’s better for summoners to have some choice to fall back on for Wall of Flesh and early Hardmode.
Perhaps another 1-2 points of damage on Hornet and a 2-3 damage reduction to Vampires would be viable, if possible.
As for obsidian armor, it does need to be tuned down. I noticed that a summoner with Obsidian Armor, Spinal Tap and Feral Claws with 5 Imps would be able to take down the Wall quicker than other classes by quite a bit. The boosts Obsidian Armor provides makes the Spinal Tap alone outpreform most other pre-Hardmode weapons with a similar ramge, hitting for up to 50 damage, 3 times a second. The range is fine, but Obsidian Armor’s damage boost needs a slight reduction.
I’d say to cut down Obsidian’s set bonus to 10% damage instead of 25%, and maybe 33% whip speed instead of 50%. My rough math suggests this would keep the set a viable alternative to Bee without being busted, but of course testing would need to be done to make sure.
Sorry if we’re stressing you out btw, I know you’re pretty limited in what you can do but I hope you have the jurisdiction to make at least a few changes.
I'm sorry you feel this way, but if you believe that our changes are made to spite players, then you have the wrong idea.
And if the only way I can convince you otherwise is to make the change you demand, then I'm stuck, because that is not a thing I can do.
People are quick to think the worst of us when we make changes, implying that we are full of spite/punishment/intentional hate towards the player base. If that was the case, I don't know why I would have spent hundreds of hours attempting to improve the game's balance and changes based heavily on player feedback. But what do I know.
Adventurer32
Terrarian
Phaseblades could use another buff, I know that their damage increased from 21 to 25 but now that they're post EoW/BoC instead of being pre boss they're several tiers higher than originally. Imo their damage is fine, but I never end up using them because their knockback is too weak. Maybe increasing their knockback from 3 to 4, or 3 to 5?
I rarely used Phaseblades before the meteorite change, and they seem even weaker now. They're a cool weapon so would be nice to see them being viable again.
Also, Phasesabers(hardmode) have an identical damage and near identical attack speed to the Night's Edge, and worse knockback. There's basically no reason to ever use them. It would be nice if they could receive the same knockback buff as Phaseblades, and perhaps a slight damage increase?
I rarely used Phaseblades before the meteorite change, and they seem even weaker now. They're a cool weapon so would be nice to see them being viable again.
Also, Phasesabers(hardmode) have an identical damage and near identical attack speed to the Night's Edge, and worse knockback. There's basically no reason to ever use them. It would be nice if they could receive the same knockback buff as Phaseblades, and perhaps a slight damage increase?
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