Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[JohannSimm]

I mean, we could do it. But Shroomite is a sticking point, IMO. If it can't be done cleanly with Shroomite, then its not going to be done on any of them.

My idea for Shroomite armor was just to be able to craft the Chlorophyte armor together with Glowing Mushrooms at the Autohammer. These recipes would exist in addition to being able to craft the armor from Shroomite bars. I calculated the costs based on 15 mushrooms x required bars. The headpieces would each need 180 mushrooms, the leggings 270, and the chestpiece 360. The resource requirements should be equivalent to those needed to craft Shroomite armor from scratch.

 

[Leinfors]

EDIT: Removing previous response

I'm looking at it again, and Spectre isn't in any better a spot.

Turtle works, it would literally just be Armor + the Turtle Shells.

But Spectre and Shroomite would bypass the bars used in those recipes, Spectre Bars and Shroomite Bars, entirely. Yes, I could include the Glowing Mushrooms/Ectoplasm in the recipe, but unfortunately, I don't think skipping those bars is going to be allowed. Upon review, I don't think this one is going to fly. If it was just Shroomite, I'd think maybe an exception could be made, but only 1/3 of the sets follows this in a clean manner.

 

[CantWontDo]

Maybe you could upgrade Chlorophyte to Shroomite Armor at a autohammer when you are in a mushroom biome?

 

[JohannSimm]

But Spectre and Shroomite would bypass the bars used in those recipes, Spectre Bars and Shroomite Bars, entirely. Yes, I could include the Glowing Mushrooms/Ectoplasm in the recipe, but unfortunately, I don't think skipping those bars is going to be allowed. Upon review, I don't think this one is going to fly. If it was just Shroomite, I'd think maybe an exception could be made, but only 1/3 of the sets follows this in a clean manner.

In that case, the only thing I can think of is being able to craft Chlorophyte gear back into bars at the Autohammer. Even if it's a long shot, a long shot is better than nothing. People have said that reverse-craftibility could be a property unique to Chlorophyte, and since the Autohammer's purpose is already tied specifically to Chlorophyte, I think it'd be the perfect crafting station for this.

Also, what do you think of reducing the Chlorophyte ore required per bar? Perhaps from six to five, or even from six to four? That would also go a long way.

 

[CellarDoor96]

Is there any reason Spectre and Shroomite bars can't just be made from Ectoplasm/Glowing Mushrooms only, and then used together with Chlorophyte armor to make their gear?

 

[Leinfors]

Honestly, I think its something I'd rather not make a change on at this time, given that its not really a modification to 1.4.1 changes, in addition to the fact that it is a substantial crafting recipe change for a multitude of armor sets, to say nothing of the fact that it is a buff to Chlorophyte Bullets which absolutely do not warrant such a change. And if I have to get into counter-balance nerfs to counteract the buff, then its just getting too complicated for a change which I do not feel strongly about and do not feel needs to happen.

I'll put it on my proposal document, because its an extremely easy change to make, and also that I've reduced a lot of the Ore Bar crafting cost in the most recent updates. I'm not really in favor of the change specifically at this time, so if its not approved, I'm not really going to try to follow up with any workaround solutions.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

Honestly, looking back at it, decrafting Chlorophyte isn’t a good idea unless it were extended to every material - which clearly won’t happen. The Chlorophyte Armor being used as a material is also kind of jank, and I say that as the person who suggested it.

I think the best course of action to make people more inclined to make Chlorophyte items is just to tune down the bar count of Chlorophyte.

Even then I’d understand if buffing the chlorophyte wasn’t an option, and some of the chlorophyte items may just have to be extras that require a bit of an extra grind.

 

[JohannSimm]

Honestly, looking back at it, decrafting Chlorophyte isn’t a good idea unless it were extended to every material - which clearly won’t happen.

I don't necessarily think it'd be such a problem if it were only Chlorophyte, as Chlorophyte already has uses and properties that are much stranger than other ores. And the Autohammer would be the perfect station for this, as its function is already for augmenting Chlorophyte. It makes sense to me that the Autohammer would only be able to do this with Chlorophyte, but not other materials.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I don't necessarily think it'd be such a problem if it were only Chlorophyte, as Chlorophyte already has uses and properties that are much stranger than other ores. And the Autohammer would be the perfect station for this, as its function is already for augmenting Chlorophyte.

I think the Autohammer is specifically meant to transform Chlorophyte *into Shroomite*, considering the colors of its sprite and animation, and the fact that its only use is Shroomite-related crafting.

 

[CellarDoor96]

Honestly, I think its something I'd rather not make a change on at this time, given that its not really a modification to 1.4.1 changes, in addition to the fact that it is a substantial crafting recipe change for a multitude of armor sets, to say nothing of the fact that it is a buff to Chlorophyte Bullets which absolutely do not warrant such a change. And if I have to get into counter-balance nerfs to counteract the buff, then its just getting too complicated for a change which I do not feel strongly about and do not feel needs to happen.

I'll put it on my proposal document, because its an extremely easy change to make, but for that reason alone and no other. I'm not really in favor of the change specifically at this time, so if its not approved, I'm not really going to try to follow up with any workaround solutions.

It is a modification to 1.4.1 changes because it's related to the issue of True Excalibur using so much Chlorophyte in its recipe.

I mentioned it above, but what do you think of just removing the Chlorophyte bars from the recipe for Shroomite bars and adding Chlorophyte armor to the recipe for Shroomite armor? Spectre is a bit trickier since it would be kind of weird to have 1 Ectoplasm turn into 2 bars or even just 1 to 1, but if it'd be possible to have Ectoplasm craft directly into Spectre armor with Chlorophyte armor that would clean things up nicely.

 

[Leinfors]

This may sound like a lame cop-out, but Recipes are not a "free resource".

Every recipe we add ever so slightly increases processing impact when opening chests or checking currently active crafting recipes. Enough so that 1.4 began to actually see a visible impact.

The occasional extra recipe here or there is not hugely impactful, but adding a reverse crafting recipe for every single Chlorophyte item in the game is not an action without consequences. Believe me, I heard an earful about it from Yorai when I added the Echo Wall recipes. But those were for new content, while this is really just a QoL change that doesn't strictly add anything new.

It is a modification to 1.4.1 changes because it's related to the issue of True Excalibur using so much Chlorophyte in its recipe.

I mentioned it above, but what do you think of just removing the Chlorophyte bars from the recipe for Shroomite bars and adding Chlorophyte armor to the recipe for Shroomite armor? Spectre is a bit trickier since it would be kind of weird to have 1 Ectoplasm turn into 2 bars or even just 1 to 1, but if it'd be possible to have Ectoplasm craft directly into Spectre armor with Chlorophyte armor that would clean things up nicely.

The bit about True Excalibur, as well as the balance impact on the Swords is a bit of a stretch to justify such a change. This is a change that impacts the crafting recipes of something like 40 items in the game. The crafting costs of a couple of swords is not enough to warrant changing the recipes for ALL of those items as well.

I don't agree with the Shroomite Bar change, Red has his reasons for doing it that way, and I don't want to overhaul that at this time. And I definitely don't want to cut Spectre Bars out of the loop.

 

[Lythael]

This may sound like a lame cop-out, but Recipes are not a "free resource".

Every recipe we add ever so slightly increases processing impact when opening chests or checking currently active crafting recipes. Enough so that 1.4 began to actually see a visible impact.

The occasional extra recipe here or there is not hugely impactful, but adding a reverse crafting recipe for every single Chlorophyte item in the game is not an action without consequences. Believe me, I heard an earful about it from Yorai when I added the Echo Wall recipes. But those were for new content, while this is really just a QoL change that doesn't strictly add anything new.

Please don't tease us with mentions of Echo Walls
Unless they actually will be a thing? *crosses fingers*

 

[CellarDoor96]

I don't think uncrafting Chlorophyte is a good idea anyway, so that's fine. However, I still think modifying some recipes that use Chlorophyte could be possible, per my above post.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

Thinking about it more, the best change would just be changing the efficiency of Chlorophyte Bars, maybe down to 5.

-Chlorophyte is fairly abundant, the issue with it is that it’s used for so many things. Seriously, the DCU requires 120 chlorophyte bars by base and making the three armor sets with one helmet each is 162 chlorophyte bars. That doesn’t mention the tools, weapons, alternate helmets, ammo, etc. Even tbe 16% nerf in cost would help this.

-Now that Adamantite and Titanium cost less, it doesn’t make sense for Chlorophyte to take 50% more ore than every other bar in the game. I think 6 - 5 is a fair compromise without bringing Chlorophyte down.

-Changing a single recipe wouldn’t have an impact on preformance.

Again though, it would make sense if this change doesn’t happen just because the game is so far into development, but I wouldn’t complain if it did happen. No pressure.

 

[JohannSimm]

This may sound like a lame cop-out, but Recipes are not a "free resource".

Every recipe we add ever so slightly increases processing impact when opening chests or checking currently active crafting recipes. Enough so that 1.4 began to actually see a visible impact.

The occasional extra recipe here or there is not hugely impactful, but adding a reverse crafting recipe for every single Chlorophyte item in the game is not an action without consequences. Believe me, I heard an earful about it from Yorai when I added the Echo Wall recipes. But those were for new content, while this is really just a QoL change that doesn't strictly add anything new.

In that case, I suggest that the root issue is addressed – which is that Hallowed armor is too powerful compared to Chlorophyte armor. If Hallowed armor and Chlorophyte armor are balanced at the same level, there'd be more reason to craft the armor.

There are a few more points I'd like to hear your thoughts on:

1. Timeless Traveler and Plaguebringer crafting recipe adjustments

I see. What if the Timeless Traveler set used Tattered Cloth (Goblin Scout drop) instead of Rotten Chunks, and the Plaguebringer set were switched to Rotten Chunks? Alternatively, the Plaguebringer set could be crafted with either Vile or Vicious Power, making it more readily accessible on both Crimson and Corruption worlds.

Tattered Cloth is the main material used to craft the Goblin Battle Standard, and this would give it an additional use beyond that. You'd be able to use excess Tattered Cloth to make the set. Meanwhile, the two powders are readily available pre-Hardmode.

This would actually increase the availability of the two sets, as you'd no longer have to grow an artificial biome pre-Hardmode to obtain the other one.

2. Changes to summon staff sound effects

All the summon weapons introduced in 1.4 and 1.4.1, with the apparent exception of the Vampire Frog staff, use the Deadly Sphere Staff use sound effect, which is very metallic and digital-sounding. It doesn't suit many of the new summon weapons well at all, as it was intended to be the unique sound of the Deadly Sphere Staff when it was introduced. It seems almost as if the sound effect just got copied when the new items were created, and what sound effect would best suit each summon weapon never came under consideration.

Summoner Weapon Sounds
Item_44 – A diminutive croak. The default summoner weapon sound.
Item_76 – A fluttering whoosh. The unique sound of the Hornet Staff.
Item_77 – A hollow whoosh. The unique sound of the Imp Staff.
Item_82 – A mechanical whoosh. The unique sound of the Optic Staff.
Item_83 – A chittering whoosh. The unique sound of the Spider Staff.
Item_113 – A robotic/arcane whoosh. The unique sound of the Deadly Sphere Staff before it was added to most 1.4 summons. Now used for seven staves, six of which are new.

Meanwhile, large numbers of summon weapons introduced in previous updates still use the Item_44 sound effect, including both Stardust staves. The sound is extremely basic, and ill-suited to the endgame summon staves.

Below are my suggestions for what I think should be changed, along with my reasoning:

Pre-Hardmode Summon Weapons
Finch Staff — Item_113 -> Item_44 (Item_44 is the best fit here, as it sounds like a small animal.)
Flinx Staff — Item_113 -> Item_44
Slime Staff — Item_44
Hornet Staff — Item_76
Vampire Frog Staff — Item_44
Imp Staff — Item_77

Hardmode Summon Weapons
Spider Staff — Item_83
Blade Staff — Item_113 -> Item_77 (The Imp Staff's sound is the most neutral of the sounds, and I think it suits an arcane dagger.)
Sanguine Staff — Item_113 -> Item_83 (The chittering Spider Staff sound is well-suited to a bat minion.)
Optic Staff — Item_82
Pirate Staff — Item_44
Pygmy Staff — Item_44
Raven Staff — Item_44
Desert Tiger Staff — Item_113 -> Item_77 (The Desert Tiger sound should be more majestic than Item_44, but not robotic like it is now. Once again, the Imp Staff's sound is the best fit.)
Tempest Staff — Item_44 -> Item_77 (The Imp Staff's whoosh is a better fit for an arcane shark-hurling whirlpool than the unassuming Item_44.)
Deadly Sphere Staff — Item_113
Xeno Staff — Item_44 -> Item_82 (The Optic Staff sound fits the flavour of a Martian Saucer better than Item_44.)
Stardust Cell Staff — Item_44 -> Item_113 (Item_113 sounds both technological and arcane, giving the Stardust staves the dramatic sound they deserve.)
Stardust Dragon Staff — Item_44 -> Item_113 (See above.)
Terraprisma — Item_113 (This one can be left as is, as the Deadly Sphere Staff sound already suits it well.)

Hardmode Sentry Staves (Tavernkeep sentries not included, as they have their own set of consistent sound effects.)
Queen Spider Staff — Item_78 + Item_46
Staff of the Frost Hydra — Item_1 + Item_46
Rainbow Crystal Staff — Item_78 -> [Item_1 + Item_46] (Change to same pair of sounds as Staff of the Frost Hydra.)
Lunar Portal Staff — Item_78 -> [Item_1 + Item_46] (Change to same pair of sounds as Staff of the Frost Hydra.)
(The Queen Spider Staff and Staff of the Frost Hydra have both a "Use" sound effect and "Summon" sound effect. The Moon Lord staves only have a "Use" sound effect.)

For some reason, the Rainbow Crystal Staff and Lunar Portal Staff use the same sound effect as the Queen Spider Staff, which is very chittery and spider-like. It sounds too specific, as it was obviously created for the Queen Spider Staff alone. It'd be better if the two Moon Lord staves used the same non-specific sounds as the Staff of the Frost Hydra. (Possibly, even Item_113 + Item_46 could be used for the Moon Lord staves.)

3. Minor enemy immunity adjustments

I am extremely pleased with the changes made to enemy immunities in 1.4.1. There is now far more consistency and balance in terms of enemy immunities across-the-board. Still, I'd like to point out some remaining suggestions and inconsistencies relating to enemy immunities:

Spoiler: Poisoned

Poisoned

1. Many enemies still have immunity to Poison that is unnecessary. This includes many Crimson enemies. Face Monsters, Blood Crawlers, Floaty Grosses, and Ichor Stickers could all have their immunity to Poison removed. This would be consistent with Corruption enemies, as most Corruption enemies (with the exception of slimes) don't have immunity to Poison. These immunities do nothing but impact the effectiveness of Poison on Crimson worlds, and they aren't strictly necessary either.
2. Snow Flinxes and Corites also have unnecessary immunity to Poison. Corites might have it because Meteor Heads do, but Corites are presumably biological in nature, like the other Solar Pillar enemies.
3. Since the Wall of Flesh has had many immunities removed, it'd also make sense if it were vulnerable to Poison, since few other Underworld enemies are immune to it (except for Lava Slimes).
4. Queen Bee should definitely have immunity to Poison, as most Underground Jungle enemies have this immunity, including all other Hornet and Bee enemies. Queen Bee also inflicts Poison herself.
5. Everscream is immune to Poison, but Mourning Wood is susceptible to it. Either Mourning Wood should be made immune to Poison, or the Everscream should be made vulnerable to it. Both are plant creatures, so there's no reason for the discrepancy – in fact, the living Everscream looks like it should be far more susceptible to Poison than the blackened, twisted Mourning Wood.
6. The Twins are mechanical, and so should be immune to Poison.
7. The Empress of Light is a spirit of the Hallow, and so shouldn't be affected by Poison either.
8. Several non-biological enemies that should be immune to Poison still aren't. Angry Tumblers should be completely immune to it; so should Scarecrows, Elf Copters, and Gingerbread Men. I don't know whether the Nutcracker is intended to be a construct or an actual, living Nutcracker, but if the former, it should also receive Poison immunity. Martian Probes should also gain immunity to Poison, like many other Martian machines did in 1.4.1.
9. Pixies should still be immune to Poison, as they are presumably a kind of spirit. They had this immunity before 1.4.1, but it was removed.
10. Flying Snakes should be immune to Poison, even though they do not inflict it. This is because Lihzahrds (who don't inflict Poison either) are immune to it, and it seems strange that Flying Snakes wouldn't as well.
11. Windy Balloons should have immunity to Poison, despite dying in a single hit.
12. Unlike all other skeletal enemies, Old One's Skeletons aren't immune to Poison. I've already reported this as a bug.
13. Also – I don't know if any NPCs currently have debuff immunities, but the Witch Doctor and Skeleton Merchant should both have immunity to Poison, as the former is a Lihzahrd and the latter is a skeleton.

Spoiler: On Fire!

On Fire! / Hellfire

1. Granite Golems and Granite Elementals should regain immunity to On Fire and Hellfire (Magma Stone debuff), to be consistent with Rock Golems and similar enemies.
2. It'd make sense if all Solar Pillar enemies had this immunity, as I'd imagine they are pretty heat-resistant. Currently, only Corites do.
3. Sand Elementals should have it, as they are made out of hot sand, which I'd imagine isn't very flammable.
4. Chaos Elementals, Illuminant Slimes, and Illuminant Bats should have this immunity, as they are composed of pure energy.
5. Betsy is a fire dragon, so it's only logical that she should have immunity to fire.
6. The same goes for the Mourning Wood, which employs fire attacks. Many Pumpkin Moon enemies are immune to fire, and it feels strange that the one that is specifically linked to fire is not.

Spoiler: Frostburn

Frostburn / Frostbite

1. Pigrons should gain immunity to Frostburn / Frostbite. Most Ice biome enemies have gained immunity to Frostburn and Frostbite (Frost armor debuff) in 1.4.1, but the Pigron is seemingly the only enemy that hasn't.
2. I also suggest that Duke Fishron regain this immunity, since he comes from the deep, cold ocean, and is related biologically to Pigrons.
3. Either Frozen Zombies should gain immunity to Frostburn / Frostbite, or Zombie Elves should lose it.

Spoiler: Cursed Inferno

Cursed Inferno

• Since Clingers inflict Cursed Inferno, I think it'd make a lot of sense if they were immune to it. This would form parity with Ichor Stickers being immune to Ichor.

Spoiler: Shadowflame

Shadowflame

• It'd make sense if Fire Imps were immune to Shadowflame like other demonic enemies. Since the Wall of Flesh is stated to be demonic in the Bestiary, it'd make sense if it were also immune to Shadowflame.

Spoiler: Confused

Confused

1. Drakanians are still immune to Confused, but Drakomire Riders aren't for some reason. If it isn't possible to make Drakanians susceptible to Confused, Drakomire Riders should also be immune, as it makes no sense that the stronger version of the enemy is susceptible to it.
2. Despite inflicting the debuff, it may not be necessary for Brain Scramblers to still be immune to it.

Spoiler: Immunity to all debuffs (except whip tags)

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4. A couple of other minor things

Two questions: Can the Lihzahrd Furnace be made to emit light like similar objects, and can glass be added to the crafting recipes of the Adamantite and Titanium Forges?

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I don’t really support a nerf to Hallowed Armor - it’s in a good spot as being more powerful than pre-Mech armors while not being too strong. Like I said earlier, Chlorophyte Armor is fine as a set (seriously, try it out) and is an offensive. sidegrade to Hallowed, the issue with it is the cost. Like with minions, punishing X because Y isn’t good enough isn’t really fair.

 

[Leinfors]

Please don't tease us with mentions of Echo Walls
Unless they actually will be a thing? *crosses fingers*

Sorry, that was my bad, I meant Ecto Walls. Was in reference to the many previously inaccessible background walls I added recipes for in 1.4.

In that case, I suggest that the root issue is addressed – which is that Hallowed armor is too powerful compared to Chlorophyte armor. If Hallowed armor and Chlorophyte armor are balanced at the same level, there'd be more reason to craft the armor.

I wouldn't expect to see changes made here.

1. Timeless Traveler and Plaguebringer crafting recipe adjustments

2. Changes to summon staff sound effects

Probably not changes that we are going to be making.

3. Minor enemy immunity adjustments

If I have time, I will look into reviewing these changes and implementing changes that seem viable. Last I read over these, I did not agree with all of them. Its a substantial list and I'm not in a position to fully review it right now.

 

[CellarDoor96]

The bit about True Excalibur, as well as the balance impact on the Swords is a bit of a stretch to justify such a change. This is a change that impacts the crafting recipes of something like 40 items in the game. The crafting costs of a couple of swords is not enough to warrant changing the recipes for ALL of those items as well.

I don't agree with the Shroomite Bar change, Red has his reasons for doing it that way, and I don't want to overhaul that at this time. And I definitely don't want to cut Spectre Bars out of the loop.

Ok, that's fine. I figured it would probably be a long shot anyway.

I agree with @whoneedsnamestbh that the crafting requirement for Chlorophyte bars could probably be reduced, but as you mentioned that would indirectly "buff" Chlorophyte bullets. Maybe if the ore per bar is reduced, the number of bullets per bar could be reduced also? This would only affect 2 recipes then.

 

[Lythael]

Sorry, that was my bad, I meant Ecto Walls. Was in reference to the many previously inaccessible background walls I added recipes for in 1.4.

Aw dang Echo Walls would have been a great addition for builders tho.
Oh well.

 

[JohannSimm]

Probably not changes that we are going to be making.

If I may ask, why on earth do so many minions from 1.4.0 and 1.4.1 use the Deadly Sphere Staff sound effect? Even the lowly Finch? Before 1.4.0, it was pretty clear that this sound was the unique sound of that Deadly Sphere Staff.

The default summon staff sound has always been Item_44, traditionally – even the Stardust staves, endgame-level staves, use it. But for some reason, most 1.4.0 minions use another minion's unique sound.

I know I sound completely pedantic, I just am not sure why these changes aren't regarded as worth making, when it seems to me like an obvious inconsistency of theme. After all, issues like particles not appearing on Crimsand have been resolved; this doesn't seem to me like something beneath notice.

If I've been overly insistent on this issue, I apologize – I've just been concerned that my suggestions might have been missed. And I imagine it's clear that I have fairly strong ideas on which sound effects should be used by which staves.

At the very least, I think that the Finch and Flinx staves should use Item_44. If only that were changed, I would be satisfied.