tModLoader Calamity Mod

[Uncle Danny]

Okay, okay...I said I was going to drop this, but since you're calling me out by name, let me address this.

I'll start with the key misconception here. I'm not complaining about trying to compensate for power creep. I'm complaining that the method is sloppy and doesn't really work. I'm complaining that it's annoying-hard, not fun-hard. You can balance things without just resorting to taking things away from the player, and changes by addition are always usually better than changes by subtraction.

The thing is, though, I have no problem with the idea of making changes to give OP players a challenge, but there was no need for a hard-coded limit when the mechanics of the game already put a maximum on. Sure, other mods can add to the numbers, but balancing around every other mod out there is an exercise in futility. Someone will always make OP gear or outright cheats. Someone will always make dev items and debug tools accessible. The only consistency you can guarantee is internal, and at best with a few other mods with whom you actively work to maintain compatibility. Outside of that is just chaos and no-man's land.

As I said, not all his methods are as thought out as others, in these cases the people who think so should suggest methods that would work better or point him in the right direction, which sadly isn't done the majority of the time.

As for the limit, it wouldn't be difficult at all to add. It would be a good idea to do so, especially since they started to adjust the game to support modding more.

Either way, I understand your view on it, and I appreciated that you stayed civil through this conversation. Seems to be hard to find lately.

 

[Shadow Flame]

If the entire community turned against me then this mod would be gone. Too bad none of the people that hate me have any means to communicate with me anymore, isn't that a damn shame

I'll remain happy no matter what happens. A few bumps along the way cannot dissuade me from doing what I want to do.

Again, perhaps I was a bit too harsh earlier, and I apologize. Could have been worse, I could have tried to rally the entire community against you like some sort of subhuman monster :v

I am happy for you as long as you do what makes you happy. I will be there to support your decisions. - a dedicated fan

 

[orangepecan]

Just as a preface to this post, I don't actually have a major problem with any of the debuffs you've created for players in the mod, though I will reserve my judgment for the 1.2 content. Anyways..

@MountainDrew What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these limits anyways? Life regen and damage reduction caps only affect players who actually get hit. For a player who is able to dodge things very consistently, no amount of limits on DR or life regen is going to do anything to them. To this point, I've never actually experienced an amount of DR or life regen that I would classify as making me invincible. For reference, I pretty much only exclusively use Calamity and Fargo's in terms of content mods, and I have never actually crafted the end game soul items from Fargo's.

Kefke alluded to something that seems troubling to me. Are you actually balancing Calamity around other mods? If you do so, you're hurting the players that don't use said mods. As Kefke said, there is nothing you can do about players who want to play in god mode.

Also, the *reason* vanilla Terraria doesn't have limits on these things that you call broken game mechanics is because it is actually impossible to reach these "invincibility" levels in the vanilla game, at least from my experience. Players have obviously created ways to mimic invincibility (slime invincibility, etc.), but these have nothing to do with DR, life regen, etc. If these things are causing problems for you, it is because you added items to the game that caused the problem.

I'm with Kefke on this one. Adding things to the game, only to subtract from those things is not only discouraging to players, but creates more work for you.

Anyways, looking forward to seeing what 1.2 brings.

 

[General Milky]

@MountainDrew What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these limits anyways? Life regen and damage reduction caps only affect players who actually get hit. For a player who is able to dodge things very consistently, no amount of limits on DR or life regen is going to do anything to them. To this point, I've never actually experienced an amount of DR or life regen that I would classify as making me invincible. For reference, I pretty much only exclusively use Calamity and Fargo's in terms of content mods, and I have never actually crafted the end game soul items from Fargo's.

Kefke alluded to something that seems troubling to me. Are you actually balancing Calamity around other mods? If you do so, you're hurting the players that don't use said mods. As Kefke said, there is nothing you can do about players who want to play in god mode.

Also, the *reason* vanilla Terraria doesn't have limits on these things that you call broken game mechanics is because it is actually impossible to reach these "invincibility" levels in the vanilla game, at least from my experience. Players have obviously created ways to mimic invincibility (slime invincibility, etc.), but these have nothing to do with DR, life regen, etc. If these things are causing problems for you, it is because you added items to the game that caused the problem.

See, there's a massive problem with your argument, and it's that you're shoving aside the problem to say "Well if you play MY way and fight MANYLY you don't need that trash!"

Except people won't. Because it's easier to equip yourself for godmode and just do that, and even besides, NOBODY is going to ignore the two most helpful stats to try and get phat internet cred for winning without any defensive capability, not on the first try.

Gray was partially on the money. Regen is a huge part of Terraria's basic system. It's not very well deseigned, and it was sort of forced into being the main driving late game mechanic despite not suiting it, but she IS right in that most of hard mode revolves around regen to keep the player alive more than anything else; attacks are so blazingly fast and hit for so much damage, that without rapid health recovery the game would be nigh unwinnable. In fact, the reason DR is so good, is because it backs regen up. On its own, moderate amounts of DR would be meaningless.

Also, it's very, very much possible to hit immortality tanking ability in vanilla. Mods simply make it easier, offering more sources of the problems stats, and Calamity ESPECIALLY needs to do something about them because it aspires to have content past Moon Lord. Calamity pushes the system to new, barely controllable limits, which IMO is a BAD thing but that's another story entirely, but for this bold move to work the system has to be bent SOMEHOW. Putting upper limits on the problem stats "fixes" this, but how well is yet to be seen.

 

[Krispion]

I think people make the mistake of thinking that Terraria was designed with mods in mind. It wasn't, it's mechanics have a fine limit, and that limit isn't reached by the vanilla game. Not only that, but people seem to believe Terraria is supposed to be meticulously balanced with all its mechanics fine tuned to a point. This is not a competitive eSport game that sees tournament play folks, it's an RPG Minecraft-inspired sandbox meant for kids. It just doesn't need that sort of care. The main focus is on adding exciting content to explore, not to be the ultimate challenge in gaming.

 

[Uncle Danny]

I think people make the mistake of thinking that Terraria was designed with mods in mind. It wasn't, it's mechanics have a fine limit, and that limit isn't reached by the vanilla game. Not only that, but people seem to believe Terraria is supposed to be meticulously balanced with all its mechanics fine tuned to a point. This is not a competitive eSport game that sees tournament play folks, it's an RPG Minecraft-inspired sandbox meant for kids. It just doesn't need that sort of care. The main focus is on adding exciting content to explore, not to be the ultimate challenge in gaming.

It wasn't designed with mods in mind, but it has been adjusted to support mods better as time went by and more updates came. As for balance, it's a general point in game design that it should have, unless that game is specifically made to be unbalanced.

 

[Graydee]

meant for kids.

Glaring...


Yeah, you're kinda right.

 

[Fabsol]

Terraria was designed for Terraria, that much is clear.

This is why I would like to make changes that don't break the game wide open. Terraria is NOT balanced in and of itself, and don't try and convince yourself that it is. I could stack DR in vanilla Terraria and make even expert Moon Lord cry himself to sleep.

 

[Ghostly!]

I don't think most people liked forced mechanics shoved down their throats so instead of all this jumbo why not nerf Calamity gear that has DR and Life regen or have debuffs that can hinder those stats? Im not here to dictate how this is balanced but I'm gonna give my thoughts about this curse crippling players with out even giving them an option is not something I wouldn't enjoy especially if cam not even using some stuff as powerful as calamity gear.

Atleast if you have enemies that can inflict rebuffs that reduce these stats or nerf gear your not taking away options necessarily but more so having the player play less recklessly

 

[General Milky]

I think people make the mistake of thinking that Terraria was designed with mods in mind. It wasn't, it's mechanics have a fine limit, and that limit isn't reached by the vanilla game. Not only that, but people seem to believe Terraria is supposed to be meticulously balanced with all its mechanics fine tuned to a point. This is not a competitive eSport game that sees tournament play folks, it's an RPG Minecraft-inspired sandbox meant for kids. It just doesn't need that sort of care. The main focus is on adding exciting content to explore, not to be the ultimate challenge in gaming.

Years ago I'd have agreed with you, but ever since Pumpkin Moon, the game has been driven more, and more, and more into a "hardcore" experience.

Expert Mode is legitimately tough as damned nails and even in normal mode, Duke Fishron is all but unbeatable to some people even still because he was expressly designed with a "git gud" pattern learning mentality. Just look at all the anticheeses and enrages and specific mechanic exceptions they slapped onto Moon Lord. Look at the Lunar Event at ALL and tell me these fancy DR items and full range of super powerful number-modifying potions weren't made with the goal of being casual. 1.3 opened the floodgates for the "git gud" crowd to spill in and it's not a mod's fault, I'll tell ya that.

 

[DankySkeleton]

meant for kids.

Also adults as well.

 

[Ziggums]

I think people make the mistake of thinking that Terraria was designed with mods in mind. It wasn't, it's mechanics have a fine limit, and that limit isn't reached by the vanilla game. Not only that, but people seem to believe Terraria is supposed to be meticulously balanced with all its mechanics fine tuned to a point. This is not a competitive eSport game that sees tournament play folks, it's an RPG Minecraft-inspired sandbox meant for kids. It just doesn't need that sort of care. The main focus is on adding exciting content to explore, not to be the ultimate challenge in gaming.

Terraria is barely designed for itself as time has shown, Vanilla's endgame is very broken, and some aspects of its content (the dd2 event) dont...quite work with the mechanics the way they are (Cultist, Golem, pillars and Moonlord are a very flawed aspect of the game that *still* need polishing). At it's core, terraria is a very mindless fun game for the tail end of hardmode. We're *trying* to find ways to make that aspect of the game work better; the counter scarf was created for example, as a way to avoid damage without face-tanking it.

 

[orangepecan]

I think people make the mistake of thinking that Terraria was designed with mods in mind. It wasn't, it's mechanics have a fine limit, and that limit isn't reached by the vanilla game. Not only that, but people seem to believe Terraria is supposed to be meticulously balanced with all its mechanics fine tuned to a point. This is not a competitive game that sees tournament play folks, it's an RPG Minecraft-inspired sandbox meant for kids.

This. So much this.

Terraria was designed for Terraria, that much is clear.

This is why I would like to make changes that don't break the game wide open. Terraria is NOT balanced in and of itself, and don't try and convince yourself that it is. I could stack DR in vanilla Terraria and make even expert Moon Lord cry himself to sleep.

I'm kind of curious how. The closest I've ever come to being "invincible" without using stuff like slime invincibility is setting up 8-10 spread apart heart statues on staggered timers while sitting in honey using Solar Flare armor. I'm not real sure where you'd get enough DR without such a setup. The only thing that springs to mind is the Golem accessory with the life regen.

See, there's a massive problem with your argument, and it's that you're shoving aside the problem to say "Well if you play MY way and fight MANYLY you don't need that trash!"

I don't understand this comment. It is a fact that not taking damage makes damage reduction stats virtually useless. Terraria and virtually all other similar games work on this principle. The best source of damage reduction is simply not getting hit. I cannot say I am anywhere near the most skilled player, but within the limits of what I allow myself to work with (Calamity + Fargo's content), I have never even come close to reaching a point of invincibility. There is no problem, at all, if you only consider Calamity + vanilla. That's why I'm confused as to why there is a debuff to natural stats. There is plenty enough incoming damage, and lots of it that is nearly unavoidable (Yharon grumble grumble), that makes these imposed limits seem kind of pointless.

I guess I must be doing it wrong.

Except people won't. Because it's easier to equip yourself for godmode and just do that, and even besides, NOBODY is going to ignore the two most helpful stats to try and get phat internet cred for winning without any defensive capability, not on the first try.

You can't design around this. I could make an item right now that sets all incoming damage to 0. What are you going to do about it? People who want to cheat will find a way - unless there's some competitive element to your game, there doesn't seem to be any point in working around this.

I once again want to express that I personally, without creating an extensive setup to allow for it, have never reached a point through gear that creates a state of invincibility.

Anyways, I don't have a problem with anti-cheat limits. However, I don't think debuffing natural life regen by a couple of points does that. If you want to, say, limit life regen up to the upper limit that vanilla + Calamity allows, go right ahead. Same with damage reduction. If the upper limits of DR + life regen are causing your mod a problem, then the problem isn't that there isn't a cap, the problem is that you've added items into the game that add too much of said stats.

 

[Kachow]

wiener

[doublepost=1501383454,1501383427][/doublepost]yeah same

 

[General Milky]

Repeating: People are not TASbots. People will get hit because Terraria WANTS you to get hit. Between lasers that move faster than you can react being sprayed with a random spread, Santank bullets you can't even SEE, dozens and dozens of monsters all spamming you at the same time... and to get off vanilla for a second, look Calamity's very own Supreme Calamitas and Providence. Bullet hell so thick, so dense, and so random that you have to be a total god to make the "defense is useless because dodging is the best mitigation of damage!"argument stand. It falls way the hell apart.

It's a flawed argument and only applies to the inhumanly skilled or TAS. In normal play, you WILL get hit, the game is DESIGNED to get you hit, and the game has systems explicitly put in place to mitigate those hits and it makes up all that Terraria is in the late game. A wall of text about how well you can dodge does not change this, just makes you look like a braggart because you're personally so far above the other 3 million players who enjoy the game.

 

[jesus_on_wheels]

[doublepost=1501383454,1501383427][/doublepost]
yeah same

dude I fully agree

 

[colinavvv]

dude I fully agree

Yeah me too anyone else

 

[Fabsol]

Repeating: People are not TASbots. People will get hit because Terraria WANTS you to get hit. Between lasers that move faster than you can react being sprayed with a random spread, Santank bullets you can't even SEE, dozens and dozens of monsters all spamming you at the same time... and to get off vanilla for a second, look Calamity's very own Supreme Calamitas and Providence. Bullet hell so thick, so dense, and so random that you have to be a total god to make the "defense is useless because dodging is the best mitigation of damage!" falls way the hell apart.

It's a flawed argument and only applies to the inhumanly skilled or TAS. In normal play, you WILL get hit, the game is DESIGNED to get you hit, and the game has systems explicitly put in place to mitigate those hits and it makes up all that Terraria is in the late game. A wall of text about how well you can dodge does not change this, just makes you look like a braggart because you're personally so far above the other 3 million players who enjoy the game.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Kachow]

My mod is imbalanced and I punish op players who use my mod because of my lack of ability to balance mods.

woah honesty bomb

 

[Unit One]

[doublepost=1501383454,1501383427][/doublepost]
yeah same

dude I fully agree

Yeah me too anyone else

woah honesty bomb

@Kachow, @jesus_on_wheels, @Darklordofhell, knock it off. Either post on-topic or don't post at all.