Casual In an all-out war, would Voldemort or Sauron win?

[Jeckel]

I voted, so I'll share my reasoning.

Sauron is a deity. Voldermort is mortal wizard and, as far as fantasy wizards go, a weak one.

Either Sauron would corrupt Voldy to his side, as he did Saruman, or the war would ultimately lead to a one-on-one battle and Sauron would decimate Voldy because, again, Sauron is a deity and Voldy is a magic mortal.

 

[Vitrolic Medicine]

Then still, The One Ring is like Horcrux and Vice Versa. Either one or both would figure to destroy enemy Horcruxes and weaken themselves. But we missed the topic again: Army vs army fight. Given guerilla strategy, DEs would massacre though whole battlefield with ease. Also Voldemort was strong wizard. Fiendfyre would destroy the one Ring, or Voldemort would force take off Ring from Sauron, which is more likely, then throw ring to Mt. Doom.

 

[Jeckel]

I didn't miss the topic. In the first half of my reasoning, armies would be irrelevant, because Sauron would corrupt Voldy himself, just as he did to Saruman in the War of the Ring. In the second half of my reasoning, the armies had already decimated each other and Sauron wipes the floor with Voldy directly. Both take the topic of army vs army into account.

Yes, compared to other wizards in fantasy, Voldy is rather weak. Other than creating a multi-item based phylactery, nothing Voldermort does puts him much above a mid level AD&D wizard. He couldn't stand up to a quarter of the named Forgotten Realms wizards, much less a Middle-Earth deity.

Sauron is not a living creature, he is a deity and therefore neither alive nor dead, he is beyond the very concept, so Fiendfyre is irrelevant. And, ignoring that Voldermort couldn't force Sauron to do anything, if Voldy or any other evil creature got the One Ring, there is no way they would destroy it, they would be too tempted by the possibility of power and as soon as they put the ring on, boom, they are corrupted by Sauron and are now one of his puppets.

Seriously, if the question is evil deity vs evil mortal, the deity wins every time.

 

[SauronTheDeceiver]

Faresssain, you do not understand that while horcruxes can be destroyed by something with enough magic in the weapon (like Gryffindor's Sword or Morgul-blades), Sauron had cast such magic upon the One Ring that it could only be unmade in the fires in which it was made - Mt. Doom. Moreover, the Ring causes people to treat it like their "Precious", which caused Isildur to falter in the Cracks of Doom (Sammath Naur), and caused Frodo to claim the Ring for himself (had Gollum not come to take the Ring, but falling into the lava, the Ringwraiths would have arrived and taken the Ring surely). Actually, Sauron shoud have never been destroyed, luck went against him about what happened that day in Sammath Naur. The destruction of Horcruxes was planned, but luck was the only thing that actually destroyed the Ring. Also, Mordor seems to be enchanted in such a way that magic cannot be practiced there. Thus one does not appaate there. Now, tell me if 1 DE can take 1000 orcs - with the Nine present there. You do not have enough time to escape, once the Nazgul are overhead, the DEs cannot fly due to Nazgul, and cannot stay on ground due to orcs. KCs, Fiendfire and Protego may knock the orcs over, but then again, Nazgul are known sorcerers which cause much dread even upon hearing of them. Thus, with Ringwraiths in the play, no spell can be fired, and it is an effective rout of the DEs.

Sauron, however, would fare much better in a siege of Barad-dur, so first he sends cannon fodder to the DEs, which makes them believe Sauron is weak, then upon entering Mordor, they find he deceived them. No, its still an effective rout.

-- Double Post Merged By Staff --​

Also, Sauron was a great general. He knew how to divide his forces and overrun all the fronts of his enemies. However, whenever all his army was caught in a surprise attack, it was easier to rout Sauron's armies, like in War of the Elves and Sauron, and yet he would inflict enough damages to reduce the threat to him. In the War of the Last Alliance, although Sauron lost, he decimated the Elves. In the Battle of the Dagorlad, Sauron's army was routed, but half of Gil-galad's army fell in the Dead Marshes, as the orcs dragged two of his lieutenants into them. In such way victories against him were largely incomplete and Pyrrhic. Voldy was not a good general and would lead all of his forces to Mordor, but the army of Sauron, coming in waves, would give them little respite. Even with spells, the Nazgul dread and sorcery would end all attempts of the DEs to fire spells. One does not simply destroy millions of orcs, trolls, East-men, Mumak, Nazgul, and other creatures at once.

 

[SauronTheDeceiver]

Also using dementors or other undead to attack Sauron's forces is a useless idea as Sauron has control over the undead, so do the Ringwraiths. This is made clear in The Hobbit, where Sauron "The Necromancer" had summoned dark forces to Dol Guldur, and he was known a Necromancer as many undead and evil servants haunted Dol Guldur ever after until Sauron's destruction.

 

[neoselket]

Also using dementors or other undead to attack Sauron's forces is a useless idea as Sauron has control over the undead, so do the Ringwraiths. This is made clear in The Hobbit, where Sauron "The Necromancer" had summoned dark forces to Dol Guldur, and he was known a Necromancer as many undead and evil servants haunted Dol Guldur ever after until Sauron's destruction.

dementors aren't undead. they're magical manifestations of fear and despair.

one thing i dislike about this conversation is how people say "sauron is a maia, so he would obvs win." there need to be actual reasons why he would win, you can't just use his title as a win card. what powers does he have? obviously not invincibility, as he was destroyed at the end of lord of the rings. details of his abilities are necessary for debate as without them, there is nothing to work with.

 

[Charmander27]

Sauron "The Necromancer"

Well, I guess you proved this.

 

[Your Conscience]

Technically, until the one ring is destroyed, Sauron is not defeated because he actually transferred a part of his power into the ring. In a way, the ring is a sort of fail-safe. If he hadn't forged the ring, then he would have been defeated by Isildur. Although you could say Voldemort would just just destroy the ring, it's not that simple (and yes, mount doom is the only way to destroy the ring). The ring has a nasty habit of corrupting people very quickly. Isildur came under it's power on his trek up mount doom without ever wearing it (I don't think), and Smeagol strangled his friend after having only seen it. Even in an army vs army fight, Sauron has a huge advantage. If he has the ring in a physical form, he can take out a sizable chunk of any enemy army solo and no one in Voldy's army will survive a 1v1, not to mention the sheer size of Sauron's army. In addition, he is a very powerful sorcerer. Besides that, he has the Nazgul, who can fly and they are all powerful sorcerers in their own right. And even if an enemy survived being stabbed by them, they will never recover and will always be filled with dread.

One last thing, I do think a discussion on Morgoth (or Melkor, whichever name you prefer) vs Voldemort would be rather interesting.

 

[neoselket]

Well, I guess you proved this.

again, dementors aren't undead, although this does raise an interesting question about the inferi.

Technically, until the one ring is destroyed, Sauron is not defeated because he actually transferred a part of his power into the ring. In a way, the ring is a sort of fail-safe. If he hadn't forged the ring, then he would have been defeated by Isildur. Although you could say Voldemort would just destroy the ring, it's not that simple (and yes, mount doom is the only way to destroy the ring). The ring has a nasty habit of corrupting people very quickly. Isildur came under it's power on his trek up mount doom without ever wearing it (I don't think), and Smeagol strangled his friend after having only seen it. Even in an army vs army fight, Sauron has a huge advantage. If he has the ring in a physical form, he can take out a sizable chunk of any enemy army solo and no one in Voldy's army will survive a 1v1, not to mention the sheer size of Sauron's army. In addition, he is a very powerful sorcerer. Besides that, he has the Nazgul, who can fly and they are all powerful sorcerers in their own right. And even if an enemy survived being stabbed by them, they will never recover and will always be filled with dread.

One last thing, I do think a discussion on Morgoth (or Melkor, whichever name you prefer) vs Voldemort would be rather interesting.

how exactly would sauron fight? does he smash people with his mace, shoot fire, what? people keep saying sauron would win, but what are his exact powers? what abilities does he have? and about the ring, how do you know the only way to destroy it is mount doom? if you threw it into a fire 10,000 times hotter than mount doom, wouldn't that destroy it? what if you threw it into a black hole? and if one guy with a sword managed to survive a 1v1 with sauron, what makes you think a group of very talented wizards would have no chance?

about the army of orcs, here's a metaphor to make my point: even if you had 1,000,000 ants, they still couldn't destroy an airplane. numbers do not immediately decide the winner in a war, there are many, many examples of wars in history where one side one despite being woefully outnumbered. the death eaters have protego, which would block projectiles the orcs would shoot, they have brooms, which would keep them out of range of melee attacks, and they have mind control spells, which they could use to make the orcs fight each other. the dementors could push back against the nazgul, and literally no one on sauron's side is equipped to defeat them. the death eaters could just ignore the orcs, as they would have no method of hurting the DEs.

as for morgoth vs voldemort, that one i'm going to give you, but morgoth is way more powerful than sauron.

tldr
you need to provide a description of sauron's abilities, otherwise there's no point of reference as anything mentioned about him is too vague to draw conclusions off of.

 

[Charmander27]

again, dementors aren't undead, although this does raise an interesting question about the inferi.

What does this have to do with Sauron necromancing things (such as this thread)?

and about the ring, how do you know the only way to destroy it is mount doom? if you threw it into a fire 10,000 times hotter than mount doom, wouldn't that destroy it? what if you threw it into a black hole?

Black hole thing would make the ring impossible to get, thus making him immortal.
Also, ONLY the fires of Mt. Doom (I suppose they could be removed from the original location if kept hot in transit though...?)

you need to provide a description of sauron's abilities, otherwise there's no point of reference as anything mentioned about him is too vague to draw conclusions off of.

First, provide me with an exact description of all of Voldemort's abilities. (This ambiguity goes both ways).

 

[neoselket]

What does this have to do with Sauron necromancing things (such as this thread)?

Black hole thing would make the ring impossible to get, thus making him immortal.

Also, ONLY the fires of Mt. Doom (I suppose they could be removed from the original location if kept hot in transit though...?)

First, provide me with an exact description of all of Voldemort's abilities. (This goes both ways).

i thought you were talking about sauron taking control of dementors, my mistake.

a black hole has more destructive power than anything else in these universes or real life, i find it hard to believe that the ring would be able to survive that. and where does it say that only mount doom can destroy the ring and not another source with equal or greater destructive power?

alright, voldemort's abilities.
flight
instant death spell
teleportation
sentient and very deadly fire spell
mind reading
disguises(polyjuice potion)
almost impenetrable shield
7 horcruxes(which make him more difficult to kill)
disarming spell
explosion spell
digging spell
levitating spell
essentially, all basic spells you might think of, plus a few more,(you could look on the harry potter wiki for more) combined with his extreme power and cunning. ok, your turn.

 

[Your Conscience]

To be perfectly honest, Isildur was incredibly lucky. Narsil (an enchanted sword, of Numenorean make if I remember correctly) was shattered, so Sauron reached for him with his ring hand and Isildur cut off his finger. Also, Sauron's physical form is really a large possessed suit of since he lost his body in the fall of Numenor. Fun fact, Sauron's physical form gives off tremendous heat, such that Gil-Galad was burned to death by his touch. In addition, his mere presence could bend all but the strongest of wills. One weakness he seems to have is that he could not regenerate wounds taken from Narsil, similar to how Morgoth couldn't regenerate the wounds he recieved from Fingolfin. Although if we were examining sauron at his peak, he would be capable of altering the physical substance of the world around him. Also, according to Gandalf Sauron was not actually destroyed with the destruction of the one ring, though he certainlylost most of his power.

The one ring only being able to be destroyed in mount doom (or by someone with as great a smithing power as Sauron) is due to an enchantment. The ring is made of gold, but it can't be melted in the hottest of dwarf-forges and dragon-fire could not so much as harm it.

Even if Voldemort did win the battle, I seriously doubt he would destroy the ring. It's partially sentient, and it augments the powers of it's bearer. To someone like Frodo, the augmentation was not much, but to someone really powerful, like Voldemort, the increase in power would be considerable. If you think he wouldn't succumb to it, that's unlikely, as the only one ever being shown to be immune to it's effects is Tom Bombadil. Even Gandalf (a very strong-willed Maia) refused to take possession of it for fear it would corrupt him.

 

[Jeckel]

The black hole thing wouldn't work at destroying the Ring because it isn't the heat of Mt Doom itself that destroys the Ring, it the magic through symbolism of reversing the creation of the Ring. The Ring was forged in Mt Doom and can only be unforged in that location. I would go so far as to posit that if you some how teleported all the lava to another location, it would not have the effect of destroying the Ring, though moving the entire mountain might still work.

Sauron's powers are largely undefined, but his most prolific spheres of influence according to the writings were deception, disguise, and fire. At the height of his power, ie when in possession of the Ring, it is said that, like pretty much all the Maia, he could modify the world around him with nothing more than the action of his will. Not through magic, magic is a mortal game, a pale shadow of actual cosmic power, but through direct willpower based manipulation. In a direct confrontation, as one would expect of a deity, Sauron could poof Voldy out of existence with a mere thought.

On the army side, specifically the dementors, on more than one occasion they were bested by a school kid, they would not stand a chance against the Ringwraiths who are each in their own right extremely powerful necromancers and practitioners of Ancient Magics. Voldermort leads mages and mortals, Sauron leads the most ancient of dragons, demons from the beginning of time, and other lesser deities. Voldy is outclassed on every front and at every level.

 

[neoselket]

To be perfectly honest, Isildur was incredibly lucky. Narsil (an enchanted sword, of Numenorean make if I remember correctly) was shattered, so Sauron reached for him with his ring hand and Isildur cut off his finger. Also, Sauron's physical form is really a large possessed suit of since he lost his body in the fall of Numenor. Fun fact, Sauron's physical form gives off tremendous heat, such that Gil-Galad was burned to death by his touch. In addition, his mere presence could bend all but the strongest of wills. One weakness he seems to have is that he could not regenerate wounds taken from Narsil, similar to how Morgoth couldn't regenerate the wounds he recieved from Fingolfin. Although if we were examining sauron at his peak, he would be capable of altering the physical substance of the world around him. Also, according to Gandalf Sauron was not actually destroyed with the destruction of the one ring, though he certainlylost most of his power.

The one ring only being able to be destroyed in mount doom (or by someone with as great a smithing power as Sauron) is due to an enchantment. The ring is made of gold, but it can't be melted in the hottest of dwarf-forges and dragon-fire could not so much as harm it.

Even if Voldemort did win the battle, I seriously doubt he would destroy the ring. It's partially sentient, and it augments the powers of it's bearer. To someone like Frodo, the augmentation was not much, but to someone really powerful, like Voldemort, the increase in power would be considerable. If you think he wouldn't succumb to it, that's unlikely, as the only one ever being shown to be immune to it's effects is Tom Bombadil. Even Gandalf (a very strong-willed Maia) refused to take possession of it for fear it would corrupt him.

The black hole thing wouldn't work at destroying the Ring because it isn't the heat of Mt Doom itself that destroys the Ring, it the magic through symbolism of reversing the creation of the Ring. The Ring was forged in Mt Doom and can only be unforged in that location. I would go so far as to posit that if you some how teleported all the lava to another location, it would not have the effect of destroying the Ring, though moving the entire mountain might still work.

Sauron's powers are largely undefined, but his most prolific spheres of influence according to the writings were deception, disguise, and fire. At the height of his power, ie when in possession of the Ring, it is said that, like pretty much all the Maia, he could modify the world around him with nothing more than the action of his will. Not through magic, magic is a mortal game, a pale shadow of actual cosmic power, but through direct willpower based manipulation. In a direct confrontation, as one would expect of a deity, Sauron could poof Voldy out of existence with a mere thought.

On the army side, specifically the dementors, on more than one occasion they were bested by a school kid, they would not stand a chance against the Ringwraiths who are each in their own right extremely powerful necromancers and practitioners of Ancient Magics. Voldermort leads mages and mortals, Sauron leads the most ancient of dragons, demons from the beginning of time, and other lesser deities. Voldy is outclassed on every front and at every level.

thanks for the info.
if sauron's heat wasn't enough to kill isildur, there's no way it could kill voldemort, besides, voldemort doesn't even need to get near him. spells have very long range.
voldemort would probably be able to tell the ring is a "horcrux(or horcrux related product)" if he got a hold of it, and he's shown in the books to have a very strong will. given enough time it would probably corrupt him, but he would likely destroy it before that happened.

you mention how the ringwraiths are extremely powerful, but they are susceptible to fire, which the voldemort side has an infinite supply of, and apparently all it takes to kill one is a woman(several of the death eaters are female) and a hobbit with a sword, plus they wouldn't even be able to reach the death eaters once their mount was destroyed. you also mention how sauron has dragons, demons, and deities as allies, but none of those showed up in the lord of the rings. i concede that voldemort would probably lose if sauron was in his original form, but the point i'm referring to is somewhere around the battle with isildur.

as for the dementors being bested by a school kid, the school kid in question was able to cast a patronus(which requires magical blood and skill), which is the only thing capable of fighting off dementors, like how mount doom is the only thing able to destroy the ring(thanks for clarifying that).

i keep hearing about how isildur only won due to luck. however, there's a potion voldemort could make called felix felicis which gives artificial luck. that could turn the tide.

 

[Jeckel]

The Silmarillion contains much backstory on Middle-Earth and the beings that inhabit it and that is where most of the information of the Valar and Sauron and other Maia come from. For example, Tolkienites correct me if I'm misremembering, Sauron literally bred the first dragons. Also, the Balrog that Gandalf will not let pass in LotR is an example of one of the lesser Maia that followed Morgoth and then Sauron, a deity, or demon if prefer, from before there was such a thing as time or planets.

You are assuming that Voldy's spells would have an effect on Sauron. Please correct me if I'm wrong fellow Tolkien fans, but I don't remember any instances of Sauron being vulnerable to magic that wasn't coming from the Valar or Maia.

You misunderstand, the Ring isn't a "horcrux" (I hate that word, the correct term, for those who's fantasy knowledge is based on Potter, is 'phylactery' which descends from the Judaism meaning of a small leather box containing parchment that has been inscribed with protective scripture, to the Christian meaning of a container holding a relic, to a general meaning an amulet, charm, or other safeguard against danger, to the D&D codified fantasy definition of an object storing part or all of a persons soul energy so as to safeguard them from death ... Anyway...). Since Sauron isn't mortal, he doesn't have a soul so the Ring is not a phylactery, the Ring is literally a container for a large amount of his power and, following well established fantasy/occult rules, by storing some of his power in an external container he is more powerful when his internal power is combined with said external power.

I think we need to clarify, as I've pointed out repeatedly, Sauron is a deity and as such he has various spheres of influence. A sphere of influence is a concept or an aspect of reality that a deity has total or near total control over. For example, one of Zeus's spheres is lightening, which in ancient terms means he has complete control over lightening, he can make it strike specific places, he can make it not strike at all, and he can even manipulate it as we would playdoh and use it as one would a physical object. One of Sauron's spheres is deception and the Ring, being a container for enough of his power to create a form of sentience, gains benefit of that sphere. What that means in the context of this debate is that the Ring can tempt any who seek power into coveting the Ring and its power. The effect is so strong that Smegal, the proto-hobbit that would become Golum, merely looked upon the Ring and was utterly corrupted to the point that he immediately murdered his best friend to take possession of it. Only someone as devoid of ambition as a hobbit and as pure hearted as Bilbo or Frodo is able to own the ring without being instantly corrupted and even they were corrupted over time. Being good or evil doesn't really matter as the two most Good people in Middle-Earth, Gandalf and Galadriel, dared not touch, much less possess, the ring for fear of their good intentions paving a road to hell. There is absolutely no way that Voldy, a power hungry dark lord, would be able to gain the ring and not be corrupted to Sauron's will and he most certainly would never be able to destroy it. The Ring is not a mere magic item, it is a deity created Artifact of Power.

A patronus may be the only thing that a mortal wizard can use to fight off a dementor, but the Cosmic Magic of fallen deities, like the balrog, and the Ancient Magics of necromancers like the Ringwraiths is not mortal magic and would be more than enough to battle and defeat them. Harry's patronus is basically equivalent to a modified Bigby's Forceful Hand (I'm sure I'm forgetting a more appropriate spell, but whatever, this works for the example) against dementors, which is a 6th level spell, I'll be generous and just assume that Voldy has decent access to level 9 spells. While Ringwraiths, due to their ancient nature and the standard fantasy/occult/trope rules state that magic was always more powerful in the past, would have access to level 10 spells. In short, each Ringwraith IS a wizard that is at least if not more powerful than Voldy himself.

(For those unfamiliar with the AD&D spell level progression, each spell level is basically exponentially more powerful than the previous, kind of like richter scale for earthquakes and level 10 represents the highest level of magic that one can reach without being a deity, so much so that with the proper spells and rituals a wizard with level 10 spell ability can trade places with a deity and assume their power, though the one time it happen in a different universe it almost destroyed that universe and caused level 10 spells to be taken away from wizards there forever. ... Anyway ...)

As for killing a Ringwraith, it doesn't take a women, in the story it was two people, happened to be a man and a women, but that isn't a requirement. The Ringwraith your referring to was killed by swords created by the Westernesse, descendants of Middle-Earth's version of Atlantis which was populated by humans who descended from an ancient elf back when elves were more than the shadows they have become. In other words, the swords that killed the Ringwraith were powerful ancient artifacts from a time when humans were more akin to low level demigods than the normal mortals of today. Aragorn is the best known of those descendants of descendants of descendants and he was a pale version in comparison. I'm not an expert on potter-verse, but I believe a good comparison between the ancient and modern swords would be the first wand versus a normal off the shelf variety.

To your mention of Isildur's luck and the potter-verse luck potions. Isildur wasn't lucky in the sense of being lucky at cards, he was lucky in the sense that by virtue of his lineage he was the only one that had even the slightest chance of defeating Sauron and that was with his special sword and even then he only succeeded because Sauron got overconfident and after all that Isildur still failed because he was corrupted by the Ring.


To put this whole thing into a different context: The question is basically the equivalent of who would win in a war between General Patton (or Genghis Khan or Sun Tzu or whoever you think it the best General ever) with the best army the earth can field and the Archangel Michel with the host of heaven behind him. Magic or not, horcruxes or not, Voldy and his crew are just a bunch of mortals. Sauron and many of his crew are literal deities. Mortal magic is a joke when we are talking about the creatures that literally sung physical reality into existence.

EDIT: That is way longer than I intended, which means I'm starting to babble and it is time for bed.

 

[SauronTheDeceiver]

From what I read, Dementors are weaker versions of Ringwraiths, which clearly means they are undead (I think they were listed by the Ministry as "Undead") so Sauron can control them, and Dementors are not undead, they will side with Sauron because he is a better user of FEAR as a weapon than Voldy.

As for the argument that the One Ring is a phlactery, nopety nopety nope. Sauron actually was a Maia of Aule (who created Dwarves) so he had immense power in creating all kinds of things. According to Elrond (FoTR, Council of Elrond) Sauron had nigh-unlimited power WITHOUT the Ring, with it, Sauron's power has "tripled" from what it was. Moreover Voldemort clearly did not have the ability to do that. Moreover Sauron is mentioned many times to "have control over the Earth and the Fires beneath it" and weather (RoTK, The Siege of Gondor - Sauron sent clouds from Orodruin to blacken the sky of Minas Tirith) and I doubt Voldy could do all this. And all this Sauron could do without the Ring, imagine what would happen if Sauron had the Ring in his grasp.

About Isildur, Sauron was already defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad, the two greatest fighters of Endor at that time, before Isildur cut the RIng from Sauron's hand, and that's quite lucky, since the Ring's heat would later burn Islidur's hand (he wrote that down). Sauron's body heat was due to his malice, but Voly had to create it ARTIFICIALLY as Fiendfire, etc.

Nazgul could easily wreak up the spells cast by the DEs due to their superior SORCERY (technically, they had become Necromancers) and the distance between Barad-dur and Isengard was covered in a few hours as per Gandalf by the Fellbeasts, that's quite fast (about 1500 miles in 6-9 hours is a very fast speed).

Sauron's main weapon was fear and fear was not what Voldemort or his DEs could resist

 

[neoselket]

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jeckel: if balrogs followed sauron, why did none show up anywhere in LOTR other than the mines of moria? maybe sauron forgot their phone number.

if voldemort did get the ring, he could probably use it to defeat sauron, as the LOTR books implied that anyone with sufficient strength of mind could greatly increase their power with the ring. in return of the king, it was mentioned that sauron was afraid Aragorn would use the ring to defeat him. the ring did not bend people's minds to the will of sauron, but made them want to possess the ring themselves.

The Ring is mine.

as for the dementors, the only thing that can ward off dementors is light magic, such as the souls of good people or patronuses. dark magic has no effect on dementors.
you mention how Aragorn was the descendant of a bunch of really powerful guys, well, voldemort was too, he was the heir of Salazar slytherin and came from a long line of powerful dark wizards.
nazgul: if the nazgul are wizards, why did they need swords and maces to fight? the things couldn't even kill four hobbits defended by a guy with a torch. seems pretty pathetic considering that voldemort can instakill anything less powerful than him without expending much effort. and the duo that did kill the witch-king were a mortal woman and a mortal hobbit, armed with normal swords.
also, this is voldemort vs sauron, not D&D, so some of your points are irrelevant.
you say that deities vs mortals would always result in the deities winning, but that depends on the abilities of each. it's like saying a hobbit vs a troll would always result in the troll winning, even though the hobbit could still win. titles cannot be used as insta-win cards.

sauronthedeceiver: what were elendil and gil-galad then? a mortal man and an elf. wizards are more powerful than them(with the exception of the long lifespan of the elves), which leads me to believe that voldemort and his death eaters would stand a pretty good chance against sauron. seriously, if the guy was so powerful how come he couldn't kill elendil, gil-galad, and isildur without fighting them(and losing)? voldemort can kill just about anything in one hit.

dementors are not undead, they are classified as non-beings(have never died, and can never die) and undeads are entities that have died but are still, for various reasons, up and about(so to speak). also, dementors spread fear just as efficiently, if not more so, than the nazgul, especially since there's so many of them, so fear is a pretty good weapon for voldemort too.

And all this Sauron could do without the Ring, imagine what would happen if Sauron had the Ring in his grasp.

apparently not avoid being killed by two mortal guys with no magical power whatsoever plus an elf with little magical power.

 

[Jeckel]

jeckel: if balrogs followed sauron, why did none show up anywhere in LOTR other than the mines of moria? maybe sauron forgot their phone number.

Because by the time of LotR, there weren't many Balrogs left. The debate of this thread isn't time specific, so I'm assuming basic meta-battle rules where each side gets the units from the height of their power.

if voldemort did get the ring, he could probably use it to defeat sauron, as the LOTR books implied that anyone with sufficient strength of mind could greatly increase their power with the ring. in return of the king, it was mentioned that sauron was afraid Aragorn would use the ring to defeat him. the ring did not bend people's minds to the will of sauron, but made them want to possess the ring themselves.

It does bend minds to the will of Sauron and Sauron's will is basically to destroy the age of man and to rule the world as its dark master. Even if you defeated the shadow of Sauron, you would take his place becoming the new Sauron. The new ruler may think they are in control, but they aren't, through the Ring they are following the will of Sauron. It is why Frodo was repeatedly tempted to put the ring on in dangerous situations, even knowing it was a bad idea, because the Ring was influencing him so as to get itself returned to Sauron, because that was Sauron's will.

you mention how Aragorn was the descendant of a bunch of really powerful guys, well, voldemort was too, he was the heir of Salazar slytherin and came from a long line of powerful dark wizards.

Aragorn wasn't descended from "a bunch of really powerful guys", he is descended from a very powerful race of people, the Numenoreans, pretty much a race of Captain Americas with Elf blood and magical aptitude thrown in. It is like saying you could win a boxing match because your father and his father and his father's father were great boxers, but your opponent is a Mountain Giant. One has an impressive family history, the other is from an entire race who's basic physical characteristics outclass the former.

and the duo that did kill the witch-king were a mortal woman and a mortal hobbit, armed with normal swords.

They weren't normal swords, they were ancient swords crafted by the Numenorean descended race, the Westernesse, who were a step below their Numenorean ancestors but still one or two steps above normal humans. Their swords were all inherently the equivalent of magical artifacts. Once again, I point to the standard fantasy rule of things crafted in the past being inherently more powerful than things crafted in the present.

also, this is voldemort vs sauron, not D&D, so some of your points are irrelevant.

D&D is a decades old system designed entirely to qualify and quantify fantasy mechanics. I used it to qualify the relative power levels between the two sides. Those points were entirely valid and relevant.

you say that deities vs mortals would always result in the deities winning, but that depends on the abilities of each. it's like saying a hobbit vs a troll would always result in the troll winning, even though the hobbit could still win. titles cannot be used as insta-win cards.

No, it is more like comparing a Balrog vs a hobbit and the hobbit would always lose, because one is an unmortal creature that can only be destroyed by a creature of equal or greater power, such as the deity Gandalf (remember, Gandalf isn't a wizard, Wizard is a title, he is a Maia just like Sauron) and the other is a mortal creature with no hope of winning. I haven't given an insta-win based on titles, I've clearly laid out why the question posits an inherently unbalanced battle between one side that is entirely outclassed by the other.



Let's see if putting it this way will highlight the imbalance:

Isildur and the combined armies of the ancient races barely managed to defeat Sauron and capture the Ring. Frodo and the Fellowship with the help of Gandalf and two wars including the combined modern races barely managed to destroy the Ring. However, Sauron is still not dead and will never be dead because he is a deity and only the creator deity has the power to unmake him. Short of the creator unmaking him or the other deities staging another deity war to lock him away as the did Morgoth, he will always return at some point no matter how many times the mortal world may defeat him.

Voldemort was killed and is dead. Every wiki I've check confirms this, after the last phylactery is destroyed, he became mortal again and was killed.

Do you see the difference? One side is lead by an eternal, unkillable being with powers on the cosmic scale. The other side is led by an admittedly powerful mortal wizard who can die. Voldemort most certainly could win some battles in this hypothetical war, but he could never, ever win the war because Sauron can not be permanently killed.

 

[SauronTheDeceiver]

Just hearing the name of Ringwraiths was enough to scare most people in Middle-earth. The reason why the Nazgul were defeated at Weathertop was because they acted too slowly + they are scared of fire, and fire did Aragorn wield.
As for Elendil and Gil-galad, one descended from Elrond's brother Elros Tar-Minyatur and the other from Fingolfin who himself was the younger son of Finwe, the First High King of the Noldor. Both were quite tall, especially Elendil. Both could use Palantiri, and in fact Gil-galad had fought Sauron twice before. Why, he had the power of one of the Three Rings of the Elves (others being with Galadriel and Elrond) and according to what I know, the Three gave their bearers magical powers, not to mention Gil-galad's lineage!
Now you are saying Dementors aren't undead but see...
"Dementors hold no true loyalty, except to whomever can provide them with the most people to feed off."
And Sauron can easily arrange for that - surely the Dementors will betray Voldy! Also you say that mortals ended the Witch-king. Well, both ALMOST died due to the Witch-king's Black Breath. Moreover, Merry's sword was shattered instantaneously when it hit the Witch-king, which distracted him, giving Eowyn a c
hance to stab him. It was only because Aragorn brewed Kingsfoil in the Houses of Healing that they survived. Same with Frodo after the Weathertop incident. The wound from the Morgul blade hurt Frodo forever after that. Also Aragorn was an excellent swordsman. And the Nazgul saw Frodo after he put on the Ring, in the Wraith-world.

Does hearing the name of dementors cause fear? Is a person attacked by dementors haunted with the memories ever after? Can 1 DE take on 1000 orcs, 10 trolls and 1000 mannish allies of Sauron at one time??? I need answers, as they are decisive.

 

[FairyPrincessSerenity]

Voldemort's Death Eaters are few in number and even fewer legitimately serve him. The rest do so out of fear. There is no doubt a number of them would defect to Sauron's side.

Dementors would also turn away from Voldy's control and could quite possibly turn on his own Death Eaters, as they have more positive emotions/memories than the purely negative Orcs. Post-battle, the Dementors would likely drift towards the Shire.

As for the few remaining Death Eaters, they would be boned simply because of the presence of the Nazgûl. Their screams render even the most courageous warrior terrified beyond comprehension. Rightfully so, as they're the invisible threat of impending death. The Witch-king in particular cannot be slain by men. That's a pretty good resistance in this engagement. The screams alone would be so distracting that the Death Eaters wouldn't be able to concentrate on the simplest of spells. Similarly, Apparition is out of the question. The Orcs would efficiently kill the lot of them - Voldemort included.

Sauron wouldn't even need to get personally involved.