Casual In an all-out war, would Voldemort or Sauron win?
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TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
I don't believe we've acknowledged that Sauron's army has access to some sorts of war machines, at least I remeber them having some. Gah, how can I, a self proclaimed nerd, be losing a nerd argument?
I have considered the possibility of Sauron using his several months of attrition losses to develop some sort of countermeasure, either technologically or magically, to Death Eaters. They are shown to have primitive siege ballistae in Helm's Deep . . . something like this COULD be re-purposed into an extreme velocity bolt launcher . . . something that could hit a normally out of range target and either catch them off guard, or pierce through the Protego shield. Would take a good bit of accuracy though.
Unfortunately for Sauron, some of the best anti-HP Universe countermeasures require HP Universe magic to function (anti-Apparition jinxes, etc) so the only thing I can imagine is him harnessing some sort of personal spell that could have an impact on them. But generally speaking, we are keeping the generals out of the fight for the sake of the army.
Theoretically could be, but the number of ways a Nazgul could be killed is very limited. I'm not willing to give the Death Eaters the benefit of the doubt that they procured the enchanted blades designed for Nazgul slaying, and since we don't know if KC would work, I can't count it as a sure victory.
That said, Nazgul were not invulnerable, and could be physically destroyed by any potent combat magic . . . it would just send their soul back to Sauron though for revival. Buy's time, at least.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
War machines involve much more than that, any sort of machine that is meant to kill or cause destruction.
Edit: Yeah, @Leinfors. Sauron and Voldemort could probably both cast something on their army to improve them, so that shouldn't be put into account.
I have more to add. If and when the Death Eaters get tired, the orcs will easily track them down and murder them. They've been shown to keep long grudges and be able to cover huge amounts of ground in short time if need requires.
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This is certainly possible, but the nature of Apparition limits this risk. It isn't shown to have absolute limits, but I would be willing to suggest an intelligent general would establish Apparition waypoints and safe zones, so that a DE could apparate as many times as possible until a safe distance is reached. I would never be intending to break up the group, so while the majority rest, some would stand guard to raise an alert in case of assault.
I don't know if it would even be necessary, but HP Universe magic can create illusion zones that resist non-magical detection and entrance, so without the Nazgul in the area, they might even be able to rest soundly with nearby orcs.
I mean, I'm all for people coming up with ways to beat the Death Eaters, I'm just not seeing any. Honestly, it would come down to stupid mistakes slowly whittling down their number, like . . . I don't know, being caught on the ground in enemy territory or something.
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TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
Intelligent generals are very rare my friend. It will come down to human error versus Orc stupidity in the end.
For the sake of argument, I'm considering both Voldemort and Sauron to be pretty smart. I don't think either of them got to where they are by being stupid. Both book series imply this to be the case . . . yet another similarity being that one of their biggest cognitive weaknesses an inability to understand good, but since its an evil vs evil fight, that neither hinders nor helps either side.
Human error on the part of the Death Eaters is probably the biggest risk they face; they have a long campaign ahead of them, and they can't afford to lose units. It would pretty much have to be a "you are on broomstick 100% of the time until relieved", which more or less reduces the risk to Nazgul only. With an apparition waypoint chain leading back to a safe zone, they can goof off as needed.
My issue is that I don't see much that Sauron, even intelligent, can do to win this, save pulling a Maiar trump card out of nowhere, but again, that involves his personal presence on the field. Even with full knowledge of his opponents strengths and weaknesses, what can he possibly do that would allow his forces to persevere? Inventing war machines could work, but we have to work within the confines of the franchise and established tech. When you have to rely on "he will just invent something in 200 days" for him to win, it doesn't provide much credibility for his chances.
bad_news
Duke Fishron
Apparition waypoint chains leave multiple vulnerable points, which could relatively easily be overtaken by Sauron's forces. In terms of numbers, considering the size of Sauron's army I'd put an estimated time it would take to be defeated at at least a few years. The Nazgul are also agile enough that I doubt they would be very threatened by the death eaters. My vote goes to Sauron.
How would Sauron detect them? Furthermore, I'm not sure if it is established whether you can apparate from Broomstick . . . I don't see any reason why not. What good is holding a waypoint if the teleportation still just occurs in the sky?
I do agree that it would take a massive amount of time to slowly destroy Sauron's army, but 100% casualties isn't required. Destroying enough to entirely remove his military control over the surrounding regions would be enough. This means that Troll kills are especially valuable, but are no more difficult . . . in fact, they are easier to perform.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
"They can goof off as needed" How threatening. 
Being realistic, the sheer amount of Orcs and their heightened senses would allow them to sense the Death Eaters in their Apparation points (...? I don't really know what they are)
Being realistic, the sheer amount of Orcs and their heightened senses would allow them to sense the Death Eaters in their Apparation points (...? I don't really know what they are)
Some videos for analysis of air mobility:
Its not an official thing, its a just a logical use of Apparition.
Apparition is implied to not have a hard limitation, but that extreme range teleports have a higher risk of failure . . . however, they are shown to be able to teleport many miles instantly. Since I can't establish a maximum safe range based on the books, I'm willing to settle on 30 miles as a consistent and safe "single apparate" distance.
Apparation functions by focusing on a desired location, so you can't just freely teleport all over the place. The ideal would be to have specific locations memorized to teleport over and over again, until you gained an extreme distance, say, 100-200 miles.
At this point, I'm custom designing Voldemort's strategy here, which I shouldn't do too much, I'm just discussing the possible applications of a free teleportation spell. And as I mentioned before, what are the orcs going to do once they teleport? As far as I'm aware, they would still be on broom stick, and still out of range. Apparition can also be performed fairly rapidly, so it would not take long to reach the target safe zone.
Voldemort's entire strategy during the books/films was one of quick strike fear tactics, with multiple safe zones to hide in. So he has shown the initiative needed to expect such sort of strategy from him.
"They can goof off as needed" How threatening.
Its not an official thing, its a just a logical use of Apparition.
Apparition is implied to not have a hard limitation, but that extreme range teleports have a higher risk of failure . . . however, they are shown to be able to teleport many miles instantly. Since I can't establish a maximum safe range based on the books, I'm willing to settle on 30 miles as a consistent and safe "single apparate" distance.
Apparation functions by focusing on a desired location, so you can't just freely teleport all over the place. The ideal would be to have specific locations memorized to teleport over and over again, until you gained an extreme distance, say, 100-200 miles.
At this point, I'm custom designing Voldemort's strategy here, which I shouldn't do too much, I'm just discussing the possible applications of a free teleportation spell. And as I mentioned before, what are the orcs going to do once they teleport? As far as I'm aware, they would still be on broom stick, and still out of range. Apparition can also be performed fairly rapidly, so it would not take long to reach the target safe zone.
Voldemort's entire strategy during the books/films was one of quick strike fear tactics, with multiple safe zones to hide in. So he has shown the initiative needed to expect such sort of strategy from him.
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TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
To be fair, when desribed in the book it was "flying at a speed greater than any wind of Middle-earth." That's pretty fast, and it's from the more canon source, the book.
Metaphors are pretty hard to work with, unfortunately. That sounds fast, but it also sounds poetic, and who knows what that really means.
That said, according to the HP wiki, the Firebolt brand Broomstick "is capable of going from nought to one hundred and fifty miles per hour in ten seconds." That is also very fast.
And unlike in the video shown, where Harry is just running, the Death Eaters would number in the dozens, as many as 50, versus 9 large targets. It would not be hard to KC them, even if only by brute force numbers.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
Dangit, I had to go dig through the books to find that one. I believe there was another quote by Aragorn more accurately describing their flight speed but I'm too lazy to find it. It was something about the flap of a bird's wings I think. Well, I have been bested for now. I shall review my material and come back with a better argument.
Well, you are certainly doing your research, and that's admirable!
I think generally speaking, the Nazgul's best bet would be ambush tactics involving cloud cover. Might not win a 9 vs 50 engagement, but the 9 respawn within a week or two, and any DE losses would be permanent.
I think generally speaking, the Nazgul's best bet would be ambush tactics involving cloud cover. Might not win a 9 vs 50 engagement, but the 9 respawn within a week or two, and any DE losses would be permanent.
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From what I can tell, most Death Eater losses in the final fight were primarily due to other wizards, with the limiting factor that the majority of the combat took place on the ground and in a castle . . . hardly their strong suit (this poor strategic decision being based primarily on underestimating what amounted to a bunch of kids). I don't think 50 Death Eaters would stare down an army of 100,000 orcs and think "yeah, lets take this fight to the ground".
That said, in a ground vs ground scenario, with no broomstick for escape, death would be quick due to instantly being overrun by orcs. There still remains an escape clause via Apparition, but in a Sauron scenario, hitting the ground in a combat scenario at all is a terribly unwise thing to do.
DestroyerOfTheDestroyer
The Destroyer
To kill Sauron all you need to do is this:
Luke Oliveem
Terrarian
Hey @Leinfors , You did some nice speculations on how Voldemort's army could defeat Sauron's, but most of it is centered around Death Eaters insta-killing the ranks of Sauron with the death curse. I took a quick look at the Harry Potter Wiki, and found this:
If so, our poor death eaters would have a hard time fighting against them.
"The Killing Curse can be dodged or physically blocked by an object"
Apparently, The death curse can't be blocked with magic, but physical barriers can work against it; Wouldn't the spell be useless against someone wearing armor? I mean, it still could create an explosion or something, but there's this:"However, certain objects, such as the centaur statue of the Fountain of Magical Brethren, managed to block the curse without any visible damage to itself."
Maybe the right materials and magical enhancements could create equipment that is proof against the curse (and the Nazgul's equipment may already be immune against the death curse)If so, our poor death eaters would have a hard time fighting against them.
Now imagine a armor coated fell beast flying at 300km/h with a crazy screaming Nazgul spreading black breath and shooting devastating magic everywhere. The Death Eaters would literally eat death. (And even if the ''speed greater than any wind'' is only put on a poetic way, they were still known as the fastest creatures in Middle-Earth)