But how does Voldemort get the ring?
Casual In an all-out war, would Voldemort or Sauron win?
- Thread starter Morgoth
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But how does Voldemort get the ring?
DestroyerOfTheDestroyer
The Destroyer
All he has to do is kill the tiny leprechaun from fantasy Ireland- not too hard.
[DOUBLEPOST=1423519321][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, the ring draws people to it.
That said, yes, physical barriers can protect against it. A whole statue may be able to block said death bolt, but I am not inclined to believe that hitting an armored opponent directly wouldn't induce a kill shot. "The right materials and magic enhancements" do not exist in the HP Universe after hundreds of years of living with the KC, I can't imagine that Sauron would managed to invent that in such a short period of time. Even if he did, how many could he outfit with it? 1 million sets of enchanted super armor . . . well, its not coming from anywhere. That's just Killing Curse, to say nothing of Fiendfyre or other combat spells.
The Nazgul, IMO, will either be completely immune to KC, or suffer a body death and return to wraith form. Neither is a sufficient end solution to them, but they are not immune to destruction through other spells . .. as for their mounts . . .
- The Fell Beasts were never depicted wearing any substantial amount of armor, nor would I be confident that they could still fly while wearing armor thick enough to block KC. Even if they did, there is nothing in HP to indicate KC could be blocked by armor, short of a brute force obstacle in the way. If armor stopped KC, why didn't they invent it thousands of years before in HP universe?
- The Nazgul were never shown shooting magic in the books or the movies that I am aware of, and dealt primarily in their fear scream and melee combat.
- Black breath was a poorly depicted phenomenon that seemed to be an issue mostly for those who had sustained close proximity to Nazgul. I don't think that this would be an issue for DE's kiting a Nazgul.
- 300km/h (186 mph) is a pretty bold statement, since we don't have numbers to back this up, but I'm of the assessment that brooms are more agile for sure, and likely have a higher top speed and acceleration.
This is a pure fight between Sauron and company vs Voldemort and company. Drawing other factors into it, like "what about the hobbits" or "Where is Dumbledore in all this" just distracts from the theorycrafting. There is no reason to assume Sauron doesn't have his ring with him, and even if he didn't, his armies would still be intact.
Additionally, the ring makes itself known to those it chooses. It would probably be quite able to hide from Voldemort if it chose to.
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TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
I have thought of another factor; All of Sauron's spies. He generally knew of things before they happened and seemed to have a spy everywhere he went. From that Bill guy to crows, he controlled many more units that way then you might expect. Could this make his army better? Maybe.
bad_news
Duke Fishron
Actually, @Leinfors, it is shown (at least in the movies) that at least the Witch-King (the leader of the Nazgul) was an extremely powerful wizard; he is shown to use magic, and is even able to break Gandalf's staff (who, for the record, I would consider far more powerful than any of the wizards of the HP universe)
The Witch-King did indeed use magic to break his staff, but this was an unusual scenario, with some degree of a "showdown" between the two staring each other down and immobile. Could he rapidly do this same effect at distant broom-riding wizards, while simultaneously avoiding kill shots to his mount from several dozen enemies? I'll let you decide.
bad_news
Duke Fishron
That is assuming the KC works on the ringwraiths, which is unlikely given their nature and abilities. If they were not affected by it, which is likely, much of the threat of the fight is removed. Considering how powerful Gandalf is (definitely stronger than a few death eaters), it stands to reason that he could at least hold his own without the other Nazgul. Taking them into account as well, it's not unthinkable that they could manage at least a few kills per battle, with those amounts exponentially increasing as the DEs' numbers dwindle.
I'm not talking about shooting Ringwraiths, just their Fell Beast mounts. That's enough to take them out of the fight, even if the fall damage doesn't destroy their physical body.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
*slowly raises hand* Anybody going to acknowledge what I said about Sauron's spies? No? *slowly puts down hand*
Sorry, was kind of cooking.
The spies could certainly influence things. Consider, though, that both wizarding wars with Voldemort and his Death Eaters were primarily wars made from hiding, striking out at key targets by apparating, and then withdrawing to hiding again. They are used to espionage and such.
That isn't to say that the spies couldn't detect and tip off the armies to their resting locations, but this wouldn't negate the travel distance, and Voldemort could just re-establish another base camp, if he didn't already have many in the first place.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
Lemme guess. Any form of pasta.
Yeah, that is true. It isn't even really established what spies he has at his disposal, just that they exist.
Darkwraith332
Skeletron
Actually, according to the latest Hobbit movies, the Nazgul can teleport at will. You will also note that the fear debuff they have has a very significant range, thus distracting the Death Eater from flying, causing him/her to plummet into the hordes of orcs and trolls below. The Witch King of Angmar (basically lead Nazgul) defeated Gandalf in battle before flying off to kill the enemy reinforcements that had arrived during the battle of the Pelennor. We can probably assume that Gandalf is equal to/superior in power to Dumbledore, the one wizard Voldemort himself apparently fears. My conclusion is that if a group of teens can destroy Voldemort, I do not see why a horde of supernatural warriors cannot.
bad_news
Duke Fishron
Ah, I misread that. Still, little is known about the nature of the fell beasts (after all, they don't even have an official name), and they're known to have been "nurtured by the dark lord." Iirc the only canon time one was killed was with a melee weapon, which the death eaters don't use. There's really a lot unknown about them, but they are implied to possess dark magic of some sort. Basically, I'm not sure whether the instakill would work on them.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
Orcs aren't supernatural, although some of Saruman's Orcs were changed by wizardry. Also, the movies aren't much canon here.
Okay, lets be honest here. Both villains were destroyed by an embarrassing opponent. If you think losing to Harry Potter is embarrassing for Voldemort, what is Sauron's excuse for losing to this?
I say we just leave "what actually killed them" out of the equation; neither villain was killed by a fitting opponent.
I'm willing to give Sauron and the Nazgul a by on surviving KC, but Fell beasts are just corrupt and evil living creatures, as are orcs. There are many things like this in the HP Universe, and except for Dementors and other "immortal" beings, they can all be killed by KC. "having evil magic" is not enough for me to consider them KC immune.
A big leap from a fear debuff to "fell off broomstick". HP magic users are pretty well skilled in staying on, and as gimmicky as it seems, broomsticks are actually enchanted to NOT be fallen off of (they even have anti-food slippage charms). It would give them pause, maybe even cause a retreat, but to expect it to all cause the Death Eaters to fall off and die is asking a bit much. Rohirrim in the Battle of Pelennor were able to stay on their startled horses, I'm sure a DE could stay on an enchanted broom.
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Luke Oliveem
Terrarian
Yeah, Armor would've been most probably useless. But they could still try to use tower shields or something like that.
Actually it might exist. We know that the KC is not only forbidden, but also an obscure spell in the present days of HP's universe, It's not the kind of stuff someone should worry about. But the Killing Curse was invented during the early middle ages, so there's a chance that some sort of immunity was created, but eventually was lost as the KC was forbidden, and those who used to cast it were imprisoned or killed. But this is just speculation.
Sauron is a maia, well versed in the ways of magic, crafting and forging. He could probably figure something.
He could just outfit the Nazguls (In case their physical bodies can sucumb to the KC.) But as KC only works with living beings (And let's admit it, the Nazguls aren't exactly what you'd call alive) it would probably have no use for the Nazgul. In case of it being useless to the Nazgul, Sauron could Just give it to some of his most skilled soldiers, and let the others be cannon fodder (I can see Sauron doing something like that).
And most of the other combat spells from HP have some kind of counter spell, or can be stopped with shield charms.
While I think thay the Fell Beasts are strong enough to wear a lot more armor than depicted, I've got to admit they probably can't wear enough to be KC immune. Again, armor that offers immunity against KC might have existed, but was eventually lost in the ages.
Some of the Nazgul appear to have been accomplished sorcerers, and I believe they could use magic to devastating effects.
As you said, this would be a war of attrition for the Death Eaters:
But the Nazgul could do the same. 9 undead wraiths can kill 50 wizards faster than these same wizards can defeat armies of thousands of orcs. And there's also this:
Sauron could make the Death Eaters betray Voldemort, or even take control of their minds.
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Darkwraith332
Skeletron
It would seem that we are relying on the movies for estimation on Fell Beast speed, apparation effectiveness, and so on. From I have seen/read, I think that apparation cannot be spammed and has a high risk factor. It also makes users in dizzy wrecks after usage sometimes, not exactly in shape for killing ringwraiths.
TheQuietBisharp
Official Terrarian
Sure, you can use movie facts, but it has less credibility to me.
When the argument falls to "Sauron will probably figure something out", call me unconvinced.
Most HP universe spells have counter spells and charms, true, but they are HP universe spells and charms, not magic that Sauron knows or even is capable of using. Even then, Sauron isn't actively out their casting defensive spells on his armies . . . 99.9% of his forces are purely unmagical orcs, trolls and humans.
And I'm not to pressed on KCing the Nazgul, as long as you could take out their Fell Beasts they wouldn't be a huge issue. And I mean, there is always Fiendfyre:
Possibly. But I don't think its necessarily a sure win. How many times would they have to face the Nazgul, given a 2-week cooldown (lets assume for the sake of the Nazgul that they always attack as a group of 9). My rough estimates of 5000 kills a day indicate a 50% reduction in his forces in 100 days, which would be 7 Nazgul fights. By the time they reach 75% Sauron forces destroyed (enough, IMO, to count more or less as a victory due to desertion and destruction of its command structure), they will have only fought 11 times. So it depends on how many, if any, kills they get each time.
As an accomplished social manipulator and imposing presence, a mind-control/mind-reader himself as well as an expert in the use of the Imperius control curse, you could say the same of Voldemort, or at least that he would be capable of counteracting the effect.
But if you want to throw Sauron directly into the mix, then we've changed the scenario. Under discussion right now is a primarily army vs army situation.
I'm using the movie clips for highly visible demonstrations of a reasonable approximation of the story. Things will vary, of course, but a demonstration helps get people into the mindset.
That said, if I recall correctly Apparation is a skill learned and developed over time. New users do often experience dizzy wrecks, but the Death Eater squad is primarily adults, with decades of experience using such spells. Never seen any indication that the Death Eaters themselves ever suffered dizzy spells or negative side effects.
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I've just seen the main 3 Lord of the Rings movies so I don't know a whole lot about the Lord of the Rings Universe. It sounds like Sauron may have more powers that weren't shown in the movies in the books. I'll still analyze the scenario based on what I know.
In the all out war with both Dark Lords at their peak, with Voldemort having his Death Eaters, Dementors, and other magical creatures that joined his army. And Sauron having the Orcs, Uruk-hai, Nazgul. Sauron holds the advantage in numbers having 10,000+ soldiers while it seems like Voldemort's army with combination of Death Eaters and Dementors is likely around 100. Though the wizards hold an advantage in the variety of charms, knockback jinxes, curses they can use on top of being very powerful wizards in their own universe. It would still be difficult for the army of wizards to take on the sheer numbers of Sauron's army at once. And the Nazgul could counter the Dementors as both appear to be non-living beings. Though the number of Dementors can overwhelm the 9 Nazgul without the Nazgul being able to use the patronus charm. In the end since the Nazgul can't be killed they would be at a stalemate with the Dementors.
Eventually when it is a one on one fight between Voldemort and Sauron, even with the Ring, Voldemort would have to stay at a safe distance and unleash strong spells upon Sauron to remove the ring to take it to Mount Doom (If the setting isn't on Middle Earth this wouldn't work though). Since Sauron appears to be very powerful in close combat, he would win if he got close to Voldemort, but Sauron couldn't completely kill Voldemort since he has 7 Horcruxes hidden in different locations (Even if Sauron had a way to destroy the Horcruxes, he would have to go to Britain in the Harry Potter Universe to find them). Voldemort would depend on his followers to bring him back if he got "half-killed" (going into a non-corporal state) during the battle with Sauron and if Sauron's army beats Voldemorts, then Sauron would win.
Depending on the setting of the battle whether it is Voldemort's home, Sauron's home or a neutral zone would affect which one would be able to completely kill the other.
In the all out war with both Dark Lords at their peak, with Voldemort having his Death Eaters, Dementors, and other magical creatures that joined his army. And Sauron having the Orcs, Uruk-hai, Nazgul. Sauron holds the advantage in numbers having 10,000+ soldiers while it seems like Voldemort's army with combination of Death Eaters and Dementors is likely around 100. Though the wizards hold an advantage in the variety of charms, knockback jinxes, curses they can use on top of being very powerful wizards in their own universe. It would still be difficult for the army of wizards to take on the sheer numbers of Sauron's army at once. And the Nazgul could counter the Dementors as both appear to be non-living beings. Though the number of Dementors can overwhelm the 9 Nazgul without the Nazgul being able to use the patronus charm. In the end since the Nazgul can't be killed they would be at a stalemate with the Dementors.
Eventually when it is a one on one fight between Voldemort and Sauron, even with the Ring, Voldemort would have to stay at a safe distance and unleash strong spells upon Sauron to remove the ring to take it to Mount Doom (If the setting isn't on Middle Earth this wouldn't work though). Since Sauron appears to be very powerful in close combat, he would win if he got close to Voldemort, but Sauron couldn't completely kill Voldemort since he has 7 Horcruxes hidden in different locations (Even if Sauron had a way to destroy the Horcruxes, he would have to go to Britain in the Harry Potter Universe to find them). Voldemort would depend on his followers to bring him back if he got "half-killed" (going into a non-corporal state) during the battle with Sauron and if Sauron's army beats Voldemorts, then Sauron would win.
Depending on the setting of the battle whether it is Voldemort's home, Sauron's home or a neutral zone would affect which one would be able to completely kill the other.
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