Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Pigman Δ said:
Urgh, do I have to explain this again? For ichor, you can whip up a Golden Shower and spray it at the enemies then switch to your primary.
For any of those other debuffs... why would you want DoT debuffs that much?
And Oiled... It's just...
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Actually, quite the contrary. Pure Summoner is not a challenge run. Let me explain:

All four classes have their own distinct armor sets, weapons, accessories, and mechanics, and quite a variety too. The game indirectly, about halfway through the game, tells you to pick a class and then go with the items that are associated with said class. If the game wasn't telling you that, why wouldn't there be more hybrid sets and items that benefit all classes or weapons that have no damage type? You don't have to play pure class, but you do simply because you can't balance out all your armors and accessories to benefit every class. People want to play a class simply because the game is designed in such a way.

IMO, Summoner became a fully-fledged class when it got its own class damage, item progression, and pillar. Thrower wasn't a good class because it had only one of the three. Even though pre-hard mode summoner is a pain, it exists even though it's through RNG and such. The game has been designed and treated in such a way to play purely, and it's been acknowledged by the devs themselves. You can't tell me you've never played pure Melee, Ranged, or Mage? Summoner is a full-class and should be treated that way. I'm not trying to convince the devs to add drastic changes like you all are suggesting (even though I agree with it), but I feel more of the community should start respecting Summoner for what it is. A majority of the players of Terraria have at least tried to play pure-class, and the devs know that. Therefore, why would most people use a Mage weapon when playing Summoner? It'd be a different story if the devs didn't approve of pure-class, but they have acknowledge it and make sure that you can play a class pure from beginning to end.

Hope this makes sense.
 
Greybrynn said:
2 different summon damage
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They already have that coding. In the sets of prefixes they can get.
AquaNathan said:
My idea was to tackle summoner armour sets to give them other useful alternatives instead of for example increasing damage by 5% on spider breastplate and call that a buff.
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I'm more interested in Summoning getting their own prefixes, that would be a substantial change that could make the playstyle feel like it's fleshed out more without having to just add more summon slots. Though if they made DoTs stack on themselves that would make a lot of things far more viable, especially in the higher difficulties. And as for debuffing, why wouldn't those be certain summon or, more likely, whip specific?
Pigman Δ said:
Pure summoner is not supposed to be a thing.
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It has an active method of attack, and several sets of armor and accessories dedicated to making a fully summoner kit. That's sounds like full Summoner to me, fam. Wouldn't add those things to my game if I didn't intend for people to play how they want, and not how randomfan192 thinks other people should play.
 
KainDarkfire said:
They already have that coding. In the sets of prefixes they can get.
I'm more interested in Summoning getting their own prefixes, that would be a substantial change that could make the playstyle feel like it's fleshed out more without having to just add more summon slots. Though if they made DoTs stack on themselves that would make a lot of things far more viable, especially in the higher difficulties. And as for debuffing, why wouldn't those be certain summon or, more likely, whip specific?
It has an active method of attack, and several sets of armor and accessories dedicated to making a fully summoner kit. That's sounds like full Summoner to me, fam. Wouldn't add those things to my game if I didn't intend for people to play how they want, and not how randomfan192 thinks other people should play.
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Thanks I didn’t know it was already implemented lol.
 
KainDarkfire said:
Thank you, randomfan192, for your wonderful contribution to futility.
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*sigh* please see this for a short explanation
Derpling Ω said:
Challenge runs do not need to be balanced around. That is all Pure Summoner is, a challenge run.
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And for a more detailed one by me:
Challenge runs do not need to be balanced around. That is all Pure Summoner is, a challenge run.
'But summoner is a full class so pure summoner is a thing!'
Yes, summoner is perfectly playable, BUT is at its best when used with other weapons.
So let's see an example.
:guidesmile:
This is Bob. He is a summoner at the pre-mech tier in an Expert world.
Bob's armour:
Spider Helm
Spider Breastplate
Spider Greaves
Bob's equipment:
Brain of Confusion
Shield of Cthulhu
Amphibian Boots
Leaf Wings
Pygmy Necklace (Let's just pretend this is post 1.4.1)
Frozen Turtle Shell
Now, this is where it is interesting.
Bob's weapons:
Sanguine Staff
Snapthorn
ONYX BLASTER
SHADOWFLAME BOW
GOLDEN SHOWER
See, Bob has two ranged weapons with him too. Plus a Golden Shower.
When Bob has summoned his minion army, he slaps the boss he is fighting (it's the Twins) with his Snapthorn a few times to boost damage.
Right now, his damage output is good, but not quite as good as other classes.
So he switches to the Shower to reduce the Defence of Retinazer and Spazmatism.
His damage output is now very good.
But then he switches to his Onyx Blaster, to support the minions with its crazy power.
Now his damage output is absolutely insane.
He switches to the whip and Shower from time to time, to keep up the effects.
The Summoner is all about using other weapons alongside your minions, to raise the damage from good to insane.
The Pure Summoner challenge removes the ability to use these weapons, ramping up the difficulty by a lot.
 
Sia_Later said:
I really wish there was some way to do summoner earlier on in the game, like maybe by making the slime staff craftable with slime and wood, and making an early game summoner armor, i'd suggest pumpkin armor.
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i like the pumpkin armor thing but you can already get the finch staff early and the slime staff is just something that I think is too special and rare to be able to be crafted in my opinion
 
SapphireSuicune said:
i like the pumpkin armor thing but you can already get the finch staff early and the slime staff is just something that I think is too special and rare to be able to be crafted in my opinion
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Ok, then make the finch staff craftable, or make a new summoner weapon craftable, the specifics aren't the important part to me, just being able to reliably get something for summoners at the very start.

Also, on an unrelated note, i really wish mining armor wasn't so hard to get, the helmet if fine as is, but having the shirt and pants be like a 1% drop chance each from a super rare enemy for armor that has to be used as a set to get the bonus is really irksome. I'd love it if either you could buy it from the merchant or the drop chance was increased to 10%-50% range, or the entire set drops instead of just one piece
 
Pigman Δ said:
ONYX BLASTER
SHADOWFLAME BOW
GOLDEN SHOWER
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Watch as he completely misses the other person's point.
felis said:
Just an interesting find: The Picnic Table and Fancy Picnic Table act as both a Chair and a Table for housing, also, they allow sitting.
So why not also allow them also act as the table and chair to craft watches?
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Do they? Never tried. Do know you can't place anything on them like a table normally would.
 
Pigman Δ said:
*sigh* please see this for a short explanation

And for a more detailed one by me:
Challenge runs do not need to be balanced around. That is all Pure Summoner is, a challenge run.
'But summoner is a full class so pure summoner is a thing!'
Yes, summoner is perfectly playable, BUT is at its best when used with other weapons.
So let's see an example.
:guidesmile:
This is Bob. He is a summoner at the pre-mech tier in an Expert world.
Bob's armour:
Spider Helm
Spider Breastplate
Spider Greaves
Bob's equipment:
Brain of Confusion
Shield of Cthulhu
Amphibian Boots
Leaf Wings
Pygmy Necklace (Let's just pretend this is post 1.4.1)
Frozen Turtle Shell
Now, this is where it is interesting.
Bob's weapons:
Sanguine Staff
Snapthorn
ONYX BLASTER
SHADOWFLAME BOW
GOLDEN SHOWER
See, Bob has two ranged weapons with him too. Plus a Golden Shower.
When Bob has summoned his minion army, he slaps the boss he is fighting (it's the Twins) with his Snapthorn a few times to boost damage.
Right now, his damage output is good, but not quite as good as other classes.
So he switches to the Shower to reduce the Defence of Retinazer and Spazmatism.
His damage output is now very good.
But then he switches to his Onyx Blaster, to support the minions with its crazy power.
Now his damage output is absolutely insane.
He switches to the whip and Shower from time to time, to keep up the effects.
The Summoner is all about using other weapons alongside your minions, to raise the damage from good to insane.
The Pure Summoner challenge removes the ability to use these weapons, ramping up the difficulty by a lot.
Click to expand...
You're missing the point, and also, if this was 1.3 then maybe you would have a point because whips weren't a thing back then, then yes pure summoner runs are only a challenge the player set up but now that whips are a thing, that should be a replacement for the ranged/mage weapons u provided. However what im trying to discuss is that summoners should be able to inflict more debuffs similar to how melee has flasks, ranged has different ammo types, mage has items like golden shower and cursed flames. Summoner has none of those atm except for about 5 summons that inflict DoTs which aren't really that useful. You're completely missing the point and your reasoning is mediocre at best.
 
There are a few rather forgettable items in the early game i wish got changed
  • I think it would be really cool if the cactus armor set bonus had the thorns potion/turtle armor effect. I feel like a lot of the early game armors are rather linear
  • I'd like to see gladiator armor get a set bonus and be dropped as a complete set from hoplites rather than a piece at a time. Some sort of melee boost would make the most sense to me.
  • Has anybody ever used bone arrows? They seem really bad and hard to get.
  • Finally i'd like obsidian outlaw armor get a set bonus, outlaws make me think of guns, so i'd go with a ranged bonus, but i'd be happy with anything.
 
I also agree that obsidian armor should be buffed, as shown here:
SapphireSuicune said:
I have a problem. The obsidian armor should be buffed.
The obsidian can be fairly hard to get and so can the cobwebs. A set of Silver/Tungsten armor has more defense and is easier to get since without bombs, you cant get obsidian until you defeat the Eater of Worlds. Even with bombs, you will need to explore deep underground to find lava for a generator or a place where water and lava meet. Also, you need 210 cobwebs, which that many can be hard to get, even with a large spider cave. I suggest that the obsidian armor be given +8% damage for the longcoat, 10% increased movement speed for the pants, and +8% crit chance for the hat. Also I would give it a set bonus of 20% increased jump height and 20% increased jump speed. This way the armor will be a lot more useful for all classes and a good option for playthroughs.
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ShinyLegendary said:
These are only changes to accessories. More changes to stuff like enemies, mounts, weapons, and other mechanics are on the way.
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No, all of the changes have been finalized, Leinfors just decided to spoil the Accessories section.
Also....
*runs around the room screaming and pulling hair out*
Whips are NOT meant as a primary weapon.
If you have ever tried using them as one against a boss, you will see what I mean.
THEY ARE USED FOR THAT INSANE TAG DAMAGE BOOST AND/OR SPECIAL ABILITY. THIS MASSIVELY INCREASES SUMMON DAMAGE FOR A WHILE ON THAT ENEMY.
Then you switch to a secondary such as the Golden Shower and Onyx Blaster I described.
 
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Pigman Δ said:
*sigh* please see this for a short explanation

And for a more detailed one by me:
Challenge runs do not need to be balanced around. That is all Pure Summoner is, a challenge run.
'But summoner is a full class so pure summoner is a thing!'
Yes, summoner is perfectly playable, BUT is at its best when used with other weapons.
So let's see an example.
:guidesmile:
This is Bob. He is a summoner at the pre-mech tier in an Expert world.
Bob's armour:
Spider Helm
Spider Breastplate
Spider Greaves
Bob's equipment:
Brain of Confusion
Shield of Cthulhu
Amphibian Boots
Leaf Wings
Pygmy Necklace (Let's just pretend this is post 1.4.1)
Frozen Turtle Shell
Now, this is where it is interesting.
Bob's weapons:
Sanguine Staff
Snapthorn
ONYX BLASTER
SHADOWFLAME BOW
GOLDEN SHOWER
See, Bob has two ranged weapons with him too. Plus a Golden Shower.
When Bob has summoned his minion army, he slaps the boss he is fighting (it's the Twins) with his Snapthorn a few times to boost damage.
Right now, his damage output is good, but not quite as good as other classes.
So he switches to the Shower to reduce the Defence of Retinazer and Spazmatism.
His damage output is now very good.
But then he switches to his Onyx Blaster, to support the minions with its crazy power.
Now his damage output is absolutely insane.
He switches to the whip and Shower from time to time, to keep up the effects.
The Summoner is all about using other weapons alongside your minions, to raise the damage from good to insane.
The Pure Summoner challenge removes the ability to use these weapons, ramping up the difficulty by a lot.
Click to expand...

Okay, fine. Let's see another example:

Let's go with Tim. Tim is pre-WoF and is building his HellBridge to fight WoF. Here's his load out:
Molten Armor
Night's Edge
Bee Keeper
Dark Lance
A Yoyo (Amazon, for example)
(Insert five/six melee accessories here :guidestraightface:)

Note the lack of ranged, magic, and summoner weapons here. Now, he could, theoretically, grab a quad-barrel, a Demon Scythe, an Imp Staff, a Minishark, or any other non-Melee weapon. However, he doesn't. Why? Because he's playing Warrior. Answer me this:

Why would you choose a weapon not from your desired class when you are playing as a specific class? You want to choose your weapons and items according to your class because that's where the balance lays. Lets assume he's a multi-class player and he chooses the Night's Edge, the Minishark, a Demon Scythe, and an Imp Staff. Here's where he's confused: which armor set should he choose? One that benefits Melee, or Ranged? How will he balance out his accessories? Which weapons will he use when?

Here's another question: when a Terrarian asks something like 'I need to fight Plantera and I'm Mage but I don't know what to use. Give tips plz' do you tell him to take a ranged weapon, or a summoner weapon? No, you don't. You give him some armor sets and weapon choices, and tell him how to fight Plantera with magic weapons. Why? Sure, a ranged weapon might be better. However, he's playing Mage so he needs the corresponding Mage weapons.

I wouldn't be arguing this if Summoner wasn't a full class. Yet, it is; it has dedicated armor sets, weapons, accessories, progression, and entire damage type and its own pillar in the Lunar Event. Therefore, pure Summoner is not a 'challenge run' and deserves to be fleshed out in the same manner in which pure Melee, pure Ranged, and pure Mage is not a challenge run.
 
Pigman Δ said:
No, all of the changes have been finalized, Leinfors just decided to spoil the Accessories section.
Also....
*runs around the room screaming and pulling hair out*
Whips are NOT meant as a primary weapon.
If you have ever tried using them as one against a boss, you will see what I mean.
THEY ARE USED FOR THAT INSANE TAG DAMAGE BOOST AND/OR SPECIAL ABILITY. THIS MASSIVELY INCREASES SUMMON DAMAGE FOR A WHILE ON THAT ENEMY.
Then you switch to a secondary such as the Golden Shower and Onyx Blaster I described.
Click to expand...

Furthermore, whips are a main weapon just like swords, guns, and spell tomes. If you understand how Summoner works, you would know that when you deselect a whip, the tag damage disappears and the Summon no longer targets your desired, well, target. Let's say you're a Warrior. You're going to kill the Eye of Cthulhu with a Blade of Grass from the jungle. Answer me this: if you're a Warrior, would you switch to the Minishark when it enters its second phase? No, you're not, cause you're a Warrior. It's the same with Summoner; you won't switch to a different, non-summon weapons when you're a Summoner.
 
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