Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[scientistB]

No, all of the changes have been finalized, Leinfors just decided to spoil the Accessories section.
Also....
*runs around the room screaming and pulling hair out*
Whips are NOT meant as a primary weapon.
If you have ever tried using them as one against a boss, you will see what I mean.
THEY ARE USED FOR THAT INSANE TAG DAMAGE BOOST AND/OR SPECIAL ABILITY. THIS MASSIVELY INCREASES SUMMON DAMAGE FOR A WHILE ON THAT ENEMY.
Then you switch to a secondary such as the Golden Shower and Onyx Blaster I described.

Sorry for being late. Most people said what I was already thinking of (4 seconds for weapon swapping isn't exactly the most seamless thing).
But I'm very sure whips were definitely made with the intention of being a primary weapon.

I know that it's not easy to keep a boss within a whip's range, but it feels very good to consistently whip up a long lasting chain of tag damage. Makes me feel accomplished.
Don't treat it like a melee sword that you can just spam in front of the boss' face the whole time. You still have less defense than everyone else. Know thy enemy. Know when to evade. Know when to go in for the attack.
It's all about timing each whip smack just right to get the most out of your minions' damage output.
Once you get into the groove of it, it's like a dance. Olé.

Another +1 to flask whips and tag damage duration pls

 

[felis]

I'd like add some additional suggestion just come up with:

• The stardust Guardian is a nice change, but there seems no way to turn it off, it is not normally a problem, but sometimes it may interfere some test in Journey mode. (would be better to turn off by double click up/down like before)
• The Reaver Shark is greatly nerfed in 1.4, is is now almost completely useless for mining (Personally, I think it's not worthy the effort just go to the Ocean for a weaker Platinum Pickaxe). (Suggestion: revert it to 100% power but only fishable after Boc/EoW, or make it mine as fast as the Bone Ppickaxe)
• There are Graveryard added needs 6 gravestone, but if not a hardcore character, you may need to have they killed for several times for Graveryard (that does not feel very good). (Suggestion: Making NPCs possible to drop one even for non-hardcore characters, or making a craftable one in Heavy Work Bench)
• (not an item one but feel like may add here) Since the Pylon network was added, the Travelling Merchant may appear in any towns, which make it sometimes very difficult to locate one. (Suggestion: make his map icon bigger or somehow more noticeable even near a Pylon)

 

[The2ndComing]

I don't really understand why speed modifiers affect whip size, it's so unintuitive and unnecessary in my opinion

I'm 99% certain that the speed modifier thing is a bug, because it's so strange and, quite frankly, as you said, unnecessary and doesn't fit in logically.

I'd like add some additional suggestion just come up with:

• The stardust Guardian is a nice change, but there seems no way to turn it off, it is not normally a problem, but sometimes it may interfere some test in Journey mode. (would be better to turn off by double click up/down like before)
• The Reaver Shark is greatly nerfed in 1.4, is is now almost completely useless for mining (Personally, I think it's not worthy the effort just go to the Ocean for a weaker Platinum Pickaxe). (Suggestion: revert it to 100% power but only fishable after Boc/EoW, or make it mine as fast as the Bone Ppickaxe)
• There are Graveryard added needs 6 gravestone, but if not a hardcore character, you may need to have they killed for several times for Graveryard (that does not feel very good). (Suggestion: Making NPCs possible to drop one even for non-hardcore characters, or making a craftable one in Heavy Work Bench)
• (not an item one but feel like may add here) Since the polygon network was added, the Travelling Merchant may appear in any towns, which make it sometimes very difficult to locate one. (Suggestion: make his map icon bigger or somehow more noticeable even near a polygon)

1: I agree with this one. The Guardian should have some kind of toggle, but no knowing whether the devs will allow it as of now.
2: This forum has had multiple lengthy conversations that have spanned many pages about the Reaver Shark. I would know, I've been here from the start. (who else is here from the start gang) They are currently looking into making it better than it is before.
3: On Hardcore NPCs drop gravestones. On non-Hardcore it's unnecessary because you can get them easily and it'll just clutter up everything.
4: I'm sure you meant Pylon network. Tbh, how hard is it really to spot him? Just zoom in on all your towns until you see an extra NPC, then go there. His icon isn't that small, and really, he isn't going anywhere in the time you'll be able to find him.

Hope this helped.

 

[BlakeRossTheRabbit]

• (not an item one but feel like may add here) Since the polygon network was added, the Travelling Merchant may appear in any towns, which make it sometimes very difficult to locate one. (Suggestion: make his map icon bigger or somehow more noticeable even near a polygon)

I dunno but he's the NPC I can see the most clearly. He has a distinctive blue hat with a feather sticking out, so I guess not?
What if the NPC icons in the housing menu display a color that depends on the pylon they're closest to?
Nah.

 

[00Banshee00]

Since the polygon network was added, the Travelling Merchant may appear in any towns, which make it sometimes very difficult to locate one. (Suggestion: make his map icon bigger or somehow more noticeable even near a polygon)

I too have often faced this, where I'd have to zoom in on each town until I spot the Travelling merchant. Granted, it's not a tedious task but making some sort of visual or textual change (The travelling merchant has arrived in ___ biome) would make a nice QOL feature. Even a ping on the map would be good.

 

[qwerty3.14]

i'm generally not a fan of blanket buffs like 33% range buff, 50% more tag damage because it's kinda lazy and some whips need more support than others.

Snapthorn: buff tag damage to 9 (The new feral claws in 1.4.1 will also buff this whip)

Morning star: Reduce damage to 60 move to prehardmode dungeon, there's a big gap in whip progression between snapthorn a whip that can be obtained before any boss, and firecracker which is early hardmode. Morning star being in hardmode puts it in an awkward spot as there's 2 whips obtainable earlier (fircracker and durandel) which are arguably better and the dark harvest/kaelidoscope are definately better.

Firecracker: the best whip in the game, it doesn't need any buffs, but I don't think it's overpowered, leave this whip as is.

Cool whip: Idk what to do with this whip it is easily the worst whip in the game since it has mdeiocre damage output like most whips but doesn't buff summons in any way, the firecracker is good at buffing high damage slow summons while the durandel is good at buffing rapid fire summons

Durandel: The 2nd best whip in the game, but I'd still like to see a small buff, increase the tag damage to 12.

Dark harvest: This whip is... ok, it doesn't have to good of a tag effect but its crowd control potential is alright, it's a watered down paladin's hammer but that's the best close range crowd control weapon at this point in the game. Maybye just up its damage to 120.

Kaelidoscope: A worse version of betsy's wraith on low damage rapid fire minions, and a worse version of the firecracker on big damage per hit minions. It's going to be hard letting this thing compete with the firecracker without making the stardust dragon even more overpowered so just increase the tag damage to 30 so its a better option for the rapid fire minions.

All whips: Increase the duration of all tag bonuses on whips to 10 seconds, this would make mixing up different weapons more useful. Even pure summoners benifit from this since they can switch from different types of whips, for example strike with durandel for the tag damage, then switch to firecracker, which gets a lot out of the speed bonus and can apply its effect on top of durandel's tag damage.

 

[J Bame]

Durandel: The 2nd best whip in the game, but I'd still like to see a small buff, increase the tag damage to 12.

Snapthorn: buff tag damage to 9 (The new feral claws in 1.4.1 will also buff this whip)

I don't think either of these need the buff since the tag is pretty significant for their tier, but I guess it also wouldn't hurt... if it weren't for this weapon:

This thing already gets ridiculous value out of flat damage increases, and the more Whip tags we add/buff in its tier the more broken it gets. If we want to buff Whip tags like this Blade Staff would need to be reworked, or nerfed to the point where it's useless without Whips.

Morning star: Reduce damage to 60 move to prehardmode dungeon, there's a big gap in whip progression between snapthorn a whip that can be obtained before any boss, and firecracker which is early hardmode. Morning star being in hardmode puts it in an awkward spot as there's 2 whips obtainable earlier (fircracker and durandel) which are arguably better and the dark harvest/kaelidoscope are definately better.

Morning Star I think is meant to be an alternative to Firecracker when using low damage/high attack rate minions, and it's not really that bad at that role (still needs a buff imo) but yeah this would make it way more useful for progression. Maybe a bit too strong with Snapthorn's Jungle's Fury, but that can be balanced.

Cool whip: Idk what to do with this whip it is easily the worst whip in the game since it has mdeiocre damage output like most whips but doesn't buff summons in any way, the firecracker is good at buffing high damage slow summons while the durandel is good at buffing rapid fire summons

The snowflake could last longer and be affected by Summoner damage increases, or we could just slap a +12% crit tag to it and leave the snowflake as a bit of free damage.

Kaelidoscope: A worse version of betsy's wraith on low damage rapid fire minions, and a worse version of the firecracker on big damage per hit minions. It's going to be hard letting this thing compete with the firecracker without making the stardust dragon even more overpowered so just increase the tag damage to 30 so its a better option for the rapid fire minions.

I think buffing the crit tag to +20% will be fine, the Dragon already needs a nerf really.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I don't think either of these need the buff since the tag is pretty significant for their tier, but I guess it also wouldn't hurt... if it weren't for this weapon:

View attachment 289055

This thing already gets ridiculous value out of flat damage increases, and the more Whip tags we add/buff in its tier the more broken it gets. If we want to buff Whip tags like this Blade Staff would need to be reworked, or nerfed to the point where it's useless without Whips.

I haven't gotten the chance to use the blade staff yet, the snapthorn and durandel are some of the better whips imo. Aside from the firecracker which doesn't need anything, these two whips need buffs the least. Maybye the melee speed buffs could be buffed instead as that will have no impact on the blade staff.

Morning Star I think is meant to be an alternative to Firecracker when using low damage/high attack rate minions, and it's not really that bad at that role (still needs a buff imo) but yeah this would make it way more useful for progression. Maybe a bit too strong with Snapthorn's Jungle's Fury, but that can be balanced.

I really don't see 60 damage being to overpowered. You'd have to double its attack speed for it to be competitve with the flamelashe's dps, bee's knees and quad barel are also around that level.

The snowflake could last longer and be affected by Summoner damage increases, or we could just slap a +12% crit tag to it and leave the snowflake as a bit of free damage.

The firecracker triples minion damage twice per second, your minions would need to be attacking 12.5 times per second for a 12% damage increase to outweigh that. If you're minions attack that fast you're better off with a flat damage increase.

 

[Mail]

I don't really understand why speed modifiers affect whip size, it's so unintuitive and unnecessary in my opinion

I'm 99% certain that the speed modifier thing is a bug, because it's so strange and, quite frankly, as you said, unnecessary and doesn't fit in logically.

I mistakenly believed that whips range being negatively impacted by attack speed was intentional. I checked the support forum and it was acknowledged as a bug. This is kind of a big deal, since positive modifiers might become optimal on whips.

It is difficult to interpret balance suggestions for whips, because I have no idea what the result from that bugfix will be. Legendary whips might end up with a huge range and attack speed. Fixing the bug might result in shorter range whips for most players, making whips a higher risk weapon.

 

[SsIras]

I mistakenly believed that whips range being negatively impacted by attack speed was intentional. I checked the support forum and it was acknowledged as a bug. This is kind of a big deal, since positive modifiers might become optimal on whips.

It is difficult to interpret balance suggestions for whips, because I have no idea what the result from that bugfix will be. Legendary whips might end up with a huge range and attack speed. Fixing the bug might result in shorter range whips for most players, making whips a higher risk weapon.

Apparently all whips are getting range buffs, so I assume bug fixed or not, they will have better range than now.

 

[Sia_Later]

I wish that you could craft bullets, right now you have to buy them or find them. I know that Rangers are one of the best classes, but i don't think making the supplies easier to get would really buff the class, just let people get their ammo easier. It's also kinda annoying that you need musket balls in order to craft mid tier bullets like meteor, silver, and tungsten.

I'd like it if musket balls were crafted from iron/lead. Probably 70 bullets/bar
For Meteor, silver, and tungsten bullets, i'd like just the musket ball part of the crafting removed so that you get 70 bullets/bar

 

[Travlordian01⚡️]

I wish that you could craft bullets, right now you have to buy them or find them. I know that Rangers are one of the best classes, but i don't think making the supplies easier to get would really buff the class, just let people get their ammo easier. It's also kinda annoying that you need musket balls in order to craft mid tier bullets like meteor, silver, and tungsten.

I'd like it if musket balls were crafted from iron/lead. Probably 70 bullets/bar
For Meteor, silver, and tungsten bullets, i'd like just the musket ball part of the crafting removed so that you get 70 bullets/bar

Then it would be too easy to get the arms dealer, that’s the thing, there needs to be balance, but you can just go blow up an orb or heart, or find the broomstick in the jungle, and boom, arms dealer with the ammo, yeah I think this is really the only reason why you can’t craft them.(also I don’t know if they get actually go towards arms dealer spawning, i only know about guns)

 

[Sia_Later]

Then it would be too easy to get the arms dealer, that’s the thing, there needs to be balance, but you can just go blow up an orb or heart, or find the broomstick in the jungle, and boom, arms dealer with the ammo, yeah I think this is really the only reason why you can’t craft them.(also I don’t know if they get actually go towards arms dealer spawning, i only know about guns)

I don't think getting the arms dealer early is really that op, the good weapon you get from him (minishark) costs a lot of gold so it would have to be later in the game to get anything good from him anyways.

Plus you can get the arms dealer fairly early by getting some bombs and going to the corruption anyways, i don't see how it's different in terms of progression

Even if getting the arms dealer that early was a problem, they could change his spawning from needing a house and a gun/bullet to just needing a house and a gun

 

[The2ndComing]

Even if getting the arms dealer that early was a problem, they could change his spawning from needing a house and a gun/bullet to just needing a house and a gun

Er, aren't they both the same thing? 'Needing a house and a gun' to 'needing a house and a gun'? You don't need a bullet and a gun to get him to move in, if that's what you're talking about.

Ranger is already a very good class, tbh. They really don't need a buff. And you can't honestly tell me crafting bullets is easier than farming out some cash and buying them. And you need bullets to craft other bullets because they are bullets. What, you're going to make them out of thin air?

 

[Sia_Later]

Er, aren't they both the same thing? 'Needing a house and a gun' to 'needing a house and a gun'? You don't need a bullet and a gun to get him to move in, if that's what you're talking about.

The difference in my quote was making it so that you have to have a gun, rather than a gun or bullets. In order to solve the problem of having the arms dealer "to early". This was so you couldn't craft a bullet from a bar and immediately get the arms dealer. Personally, getting the arms dealer that early doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Ranger is already a very good class, tbh. They really don't need a buff. And you can't honestly tell me crafting bullets is easier than farming out some cash and buying them. And you need bullets to craft other bullets because they are bullets. What, you're going to make them out of thin air?

No, you're not gonna make them from thin air, you're making them out of bars of ore, which makes sense because a silver bullet is made out of silver. Honestly if we're going the logic route of reasoning, what are the musket balls used for in the recipe for making silver bullets. Frankly, video game logic doesn't even need to be the same as real world logic, and in a game with so many non realistic things, why would this bother you?

You're right in that rangers don't need a buff, but that's because their damage, versatility, and defense are all pretty good, not because of ease of access to ammo.

It's true, especially for getting musket balls that it would be easier to farm for gold than farm for iron, but i'm not suggesting that the buying route be removed, just that crafting be added, and sometimes you have excess ores, and crafting bullets could be one way of using them

 

[Mail]

... No, you're not gonna make them from thin air, you're making them out of bars of ore, which makes sense because a silver bullet is made out of silver. Honestly if we're going the logic route of reasoning, what are the musket balls used for in the recipe for making silver bullets. Frankly, video game logic doesn't even need to be the same as real world logic, and in a game with so many non realistic things, why would this bother you?

Even though the musket ball item picture only shows a ball of metal, the item includes gunpowder to fire it. You need to craft all bullets using musket balls balls or empty bullets, because those are the only available sources of gunpowder.

Musket balls will never become craftable. To make them craftable would require a new gunpowder item, and that won't happen because adding new items is not authorized for any future updates. Also where would you get gunpowder from other than from the armsdealer? from the demolitionist? The armsdealer's primary purpose currently is to be a source of gunpowder for the player. I'm not sure the developers would want to change that.

 

[The2ndComing]

The difference in my quote was making it so that you have to have a gun, rather than a gun or bullets. In order to solve the problem of having the arms dealer "to early". This was so you couldn't craft a bullet from a bar and immediately get the arms dealer. Personally, getting the arms dealer that early doesn't seem like a problem to me.


No, you're not gonna make them from thin air, you're making them out of bars of ore, which makes sense because a silver bullet is made out of silver. Honestly if we're going the logic route of reasoning, what are the musket balls used for in the recipe for making silver bullets. Frankly, video game logic doesn't even need to be the same as real world logic, and in a game with so many non realistic things, why would this bother you?

You're right in that rangers don't need a buff, but that's because their damage, versatility, and defense are all pretty good, not because of ease of access to ammo.

It's true, especially for getting musket balls that it would be easier to farm for gold than farm for iron, but i'm not suggesting that the buying route be removed, just that crafting be added, and sometimes you have excess ores, and crafting bullets could be one way of using them

That's not necessarily going to fix the problem. Getting a gun is as easy as crafting bullets, just go and break an orb/heart.

Sorry for the misconception earlier. You're right, logic doesn't have to apply here. However, in my honest opinion, rangers having to do some grinding is probably a good thing. It's the easiest class to start off with and is solid throughout the entire game with a plethora of weapons to choose from. It has three developed sub-classes (bows, guns, launchers) and each of them are very powerful. If you really don't want to farm for gold, just switch to a bow or something. Ranger does not have to get easier. Crafting should be kept for special bullets, not generic bullets.

 

[Sia_Later]

Even though the musket ball item picture only shows a ball of metal, the item includes gunpowder to fire it. You need to craft all bullets using musket balls balls or empty bullets, because those are the only available sources of gunpowder.

I think you're just assuming that it has the gunpowder to fire it, in real life the musketball and gun powder are separate things that you put into a rifle, but because this is a game, not real life, gunpowder is omitted.

Musket balls will never become craftable. To make them craftable would require a new gunpowder item, and that won't happen because adding new items is not authorized for any future updates. Also where would you get gunpowder from other than from the armsdealer? from the demolitionist? The armsdealer's primary purpose currently is to be a source of gunpowder for the player. I'm not sure the developers would want to change that.

It's probably true that they won't become craftable, but not because they would for some reason need gunpowder to be added to the game, rather because not many people are asking for it.

 

[ppowersteef]

I actually find bullets been bought easier, more resource safe, and better for item management than crafting them. I don't see the change needed.

 

[Mental Mouse]

Regarding whips, I'm actually liking the Morning Star with its immediate damage -- simply as a weapon, it can one-hit or two-hit most of the more annoying lurkers-in-walls, in Dungeon, Jungle, and Corruption, and swat swaming flyers with a broad sweep.