Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Pigman Δ]

Okay, fine. Let's see another example:

Let's go with Tim. Tim is pre-WoF and is building his HellBridge to fight WoF. Here's his load out:
Molten Armor
Night's Edge
Bee Keeper
Dark Lance
A Yoyo (Amazon, for example)
(Insert five/six melee accessories here )

Note the lack of ranged, magic, and summoner weapons here. Now, he could, theoretically, grab a quad-barrel, a Demon Scythe, an Imp Staff, a Minishark, or any other non-Melee weapon. However, he doesn't. Why? Because he's playing Warrior. Answer me this:

Why would you choose a weapon not from your desired class when you are playing as a specific class? You want to choose your weapons and items according to your class because that's where the balance lays. Lets assume he's a multi-class player and he chooses the Night's Edge, the Minishark, a Demon Scythe, and an Imp Staff. Here's where he's confused: which armor set should he choose? One that benefits Melee, or Ranged? How will he balance out his accessories? Which weapons will he use when?

Here's another question: when a Terrarian asks something like 'I need to fight Plantera and I'm Mage but I don't know what to use. Give tips plz' do you tell him to take a ranged weapon, or a summoner weapon? No, you don't. You give him some armor sets and weapon choices, and tell him how to fight Plantera with magic weapons. Why? Sure, a ranged weapon might be better. However, he's playing Mage so he needs the corresponding Mage weapons.

I wouldn't be arguing this if Summoner wasn't a full class. Yet, it is; it has dedicated armor sets, weapons, accessories, progression, and entire damage type and its own pillar in the Lunar Event. Therefore, pure Summoner is not a 'challenge run' and deserves to be fleshed out in the same manner in which pure Melee, pure Ranged, and pure Mage is not a challenge run.

ALL Pure Class runs are challenge runs. You don't NEED to do one class. It helps in the lategame though (because class accessories/armour). They do NOT need to be balanced around as Derpling said.
You see, Summoner doesn't have a primary weapon. Summons are their main damagers but you don't need their weapon in hand. Whips are secondary weapons for damage boosts, the tag dmg lasts for 4 secs, even after deselection. They are abysmal as main weapons. The Pure Summoner challenge run negates the Summoner's ability to adapt.
In fact, playing a class is a challenge because it removes your ability to adapt to the boss in question. You can easily switch armours before the battle.
Take my current playthrough. I am a pre-mech Ranger, with Titanium armour. My frequently used weapons are the Onyx Blaster, Drippler Crippler, Shadowflame Knife, Shadowflame Bow and Shadowflame Hex Doll. I use the different weapons for different situations, despite mostly being ranged. If I was playing Pure Ranged, then it would be much harder, as I wouldn't be able to switch between classes when the fight calls for it.

 

[CrabBar]

No, all of the changes have been finalized, Leinfors just decided to spoil the Accessories section.
Also....
*runs around the room screaming and pulling hair out*
Whips are NOT meant as a primary weapon.
If you have ever tried using them as one against a boss, you will see what I mean.
THEY ARE USED FOR THAT INSANE TAG DAMAGE BOOST AND/OR SPECIAL ABILITY. THIS MASSIVELY INCREASES SUMMON DAMAGE FOR A WHILE ON THAT ENEMY.
Then you switch to a secondary such as the Golden Shower and Onyx Blaster I described.

Considering the tag from whips lasts only 4 seconds, it is tricky to mix with any regular damage weapon, constantly swapping weapons back and forth. Might as well just use the off-class main weapon constantly (or mix it with Golden Shower that lasts 10 seconds and can actually be a decent support)
Granted, yeah, the range of said whips is pitiful and it's rare to see a boss remain in that range for more than 1-2 hits. But that's more of the class being underwhelming by itself than something intended to be worked around, at least in current reality of the game.

Honestly, I greatly dislike the mentality of using other class weapons to cover a certain class' weakness because, while it makes sense for players to achieve the highest performance, it should remain solely a player's choice; in terms of balance that approach excuses heavy discrepancies of classes not having viable options for whole chunks of the game.
Just imagine if instead of making Nebula Blaze use less mana per shot, one could say "oh, well, just use it for flavor, and then while mana recovers, switch to Vortex Beater with Chlorophyte bullets as damage source". Or constantly being reminded to use bows on bosses because melee weapons, well, don't quite cut it. And because Ranger is a class with little to no weak spots on progression.

Again: it is fine for players to not limit themselves to one class and do smart choices about their gear. It is NOT fine to design classes with that in mind and letting holes in progression constantly appear.

P.S.

Furthermore, whips are a main weapon just like swords, guns, and spell tomes. If you understand how Summoner works, you would know that when you deselect a whip, the tag damage disappears and the Summon no longer targets your desired, well, target.

Whip's tag damage does seem to work regardless actually, but for some reason the visual tag disappears if you switch from the whip (and appears back if you select whip again). Bug? In comparison, staff's tag doesn't disappear.

 

[Pigman Δ]

It seems my argument for multi-class is futile and thus I will refrain from discussing this further.
HOWEVER I do want to say that either tag duration needs a buff so that they become viable supports or whip power needs a buff so that they become viable mains. If this happens, I would gladly say that summoner is a full-on pure class.
Y'know, after learning all this about whips I would rather have my minion army + Onyx Blaster and not use whips at all.

P.S
Red himself said that the choose one Class thing wasn't supposed to happen.
Plus he said that summoner is meant to be hybrid.

 

[CrabBar]

It seems my argument for multi-class is futile and thus I will refrain from discussing this further.
HOWEVER I do want to say that either tag duration needs a buff so that they become viable mains or whip power needs a buff so that they become viable mains. If this happens, I would gladly say that summoner is a full-on pure class.
Y'know, after learning all this about whips I would rather have my minion army + Onyx Blaster and not use whips at all.

Yeah, that much I can agree with. Whips are highly uncomfortable to use and their benefit can be often outdone by respawning a sentry or a minion on top of enemies, let alone proper weaponry. The only niche they have definitely obtained is pairing them with Blade Staff for doubled damage.
Along with tag/whip stat buffs, letting them inherit flask effects is a pretty simple yet decisive change to do (after all, whips already "benefit" from melee speed, might as well finish the integration)

P.S
Red himself said that the choose one Class thing wasn't supposed to happen.
Plus he said that summoner is meant to be hybrid.

Even Redigit is a human, like all of us, and humans tend to make questionable choices sometimes (just like with whole Torch luck thing). Not going to argue these design choices there but just having to note this isn't an absolute dogma either.

 

[Pigman Δ]

Hopefully some of @Leinfors 's changes are whip-related.

 

[The2ndComing]

It seems my argument for multi-class is futile and thus I will refrain from discussing this further.
HOWEVER I do want to say that either tag duration needs a buff so that they become viable supports or whip power needs a buff so that they become viable mains. If this happens, I would gladly say that summoner is a full-on pure class.
Y'know, after learning all this about whips I would rather have my minion army + Onyx Blaster and not use whips at all.

P.S
Red himself said that the choose one Class thing wasn't supposed to happen.
Plus he said that summoner is meant to be hybrid.

Sure, he did say that, but it didn't turn out that way because of how the game is structured. And yeah, Summoner stuff needs a buff.

As one last example, let's consider another game. The most recent new game I've played is Destiny 2. At the start of the game, it makes you choose your class between three classes. It tells you about them, what they can and can't do, and the corresponding items, and choosing one locks in your class for the rest of the game. You will absolutely use all the things that benefit your class and not any others. It's the same thing in Terraria. Now, the game doesn't make you choose what class you take and you can switch any time, but the point I'm trying to make is that when you take a class in any game, you stick with that class and don't deter from it. You could, but it's simply human nature to choose what appeals to them, especially in Terraria, which would be pure class.

Yeah, that much I can agree with. Whips are highly uncomfortable to use and their benefit can be often outdone by respawning a sentry or a minion on top of enemies, let alone proper weaponry. The only niche they have definitely obtained is pairing them with Blade Staff for doubled damage.
Along with tag/whip stat buffs, letting them inherit flask effects is a pretty simple yet decisive change to do (after all, whips already "benefit" from melee speed, might as well finish the integration)

Even Redigit is a human, like all of us, and humans tend to make questionable choices sometimes (just like with whole Torch luck thing). Not going to argue these design choices there but just having to note this isn't an absolute dogma either.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge about some stuff. I'm a console player and haven't been able to test the ins and outs and stuff of 1.4.

PS: Luv your vids, keep it up.

Hopefully some of @Leinfors 's changes are whip-related.

Undoubtedly. Re-Logic is such a great company, they listen to what the community says even if they don't let on as much, and they most definitely will want to do as much as possible to please the players before the game is set in stone and left to the community.

@Leinfors : I left these questions here before but I think you missed them.

1: After you guys retire from Terraria, if some sort of game-breaking bug (like the duck glitch) appears that won't necessarily break the game by crashing it or whatever, but is pretty wacky like the duck glitch, will you guys come back to fix said glitch? I assume you would if it's just after a couple of weeks, but what about a couple months or more?

2: Will you guys still be hanging out in the forums and Discord with the community after Terraria is finished?

Thank you!

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

THEY ARE USED FOR THAT INSANE TAG DAMAGE BOOST AND/OR SPECIAL ABILITY. THIS MASSIVELY INCREASES SUMMON DAMAGE FOR A WHILE ON THAT ENEMY.
Then you switch to a secondary such as the Golden Shower and Onyx Blaster I described.

The tag bonuses are only active ( if you have the whip actively selected. You get no benefit from their tags if you switch off of them immediately. ) Edit:: for four seconds after whipping an enemy. You will get much less benefit from their tags if you aren’t constantly whipping them. Thanks for the correction.

Whips are meant to be the summoner’s primary weapon, evident by the reason I just described. If you used a whip you’d get a lot more oomph out of your damage due to the tag damage than you would out of almost any other weapon when paired with summoners. Just like how you’d get a lot more oomph with a Flask of Ichor on Shadowflame Knives than you would switching to a Golden Shower every 8-10 seconds and temporarily stopping your melee attacks.

Of course, you can use a ranged weapon with your minions to little loss, and other classes pair better with summoner than each other, however you’ll get the most power out of using your whip than you would out of using any other class weapon. At least theoretically. Same applies to all other classes, nothing stopping a melee from switching to a megashark mid fight, but it wouldn’t be as effective as just using a melee weapon or changing to a ranged build.

I am aware that this logic gets screwed over by the short range of whips, but Leinfors already mentioned that the range of whips was looked into for the 1.4.1 patch.

With all this in mind, it is a fair request for summoners to have a way to inflict debuffs onto enemies without crossing class boundaries, as all other classes have the ability to do. I do not expect this to happen as Leinfors has already pushed out most of the changes, but it’s not a stupid or unreasonable request.

 

[qwerty3.14]

The tag bonuses are only active if you have the whip actively selected. You get no benefit from their tags if you switch off of them immediately.

No tag bonuses last for 4 seconds, the minion target attack indicator is only shown when you hold a summon weapon (which I don't like) but the tag effects which are seperate from that last for 4 seconds, even if you switch weapons.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

No tag bonuses last for 4 seconds, the minion target attack indicator is only shown when you hold a summon weapon (which I don't like) but the tag effects which are seperate from that last for 4 seconds, even if you switch weapons.

Ah that makes sense. Still doesn’t make whips work well as a secondary as 4 seconds is next to no time, so I stand by my point, but that’s fair.

I see that everyone had already hammered out everything while I was typing my last comment, so sorry for being late to the crowd

 

[qwerty3.14]

Ah that makes sense. Still doesn’t make whips work well as a secondary as 4 seconds is next to no time, but that’s fair.

I see that everyone had already hammered out everything while I was typing my last comment, so sorry for being late to the crowd

With the exception of the firecracker I only use whips as secondary weapons if my main weapon inflicts ichor, I think 4 seconds is fine as a secondary but any more than that feels a bit excessive. Whip tag effects should get buffed to last 10 seconds just like the ichor weapons, and bety's wraith.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

With the exception of the firecracker I only use whips as secondary weapons if my main weapon inflicts ichor, I think 4 seconds is fine as a secondary but any more than that feels a bit excessive. Whip tag effects should get buffed to last 10 seconds just like the ichor weapons, and bety's wraith.

That’s fair. To me 4 seconds is way too often to have to switch weapons, but that’s simply a playstyle preference. As is, they (would, if they had better range) work much better as a summoner’s primary weapon, and if the tag duration was increased they’d work better as a secondary and allow the "hybrid class” philosophy to take off.

 

[mathbrush]

The problem with buffing 'pure summoner' to be equal to other classes is it makes 'summoner + other weapon' the strongest class. The only way to avoid that would be to make the buffs preclude the use of any other weapons, which is what whips are more or less meant to do.

And whips as main weapons are just fine. Slime staff+beginning whip kills the Eye of Cthulhu really quickly. And Kaleidoscope + Stardust Dragon is wonderful. Using Tier 2 OOA armor and having 4 sentries makes whips even better. If one of Leinfors' balance changes is removing Dark Harvest immunity from Pumpking and Mourning Wood, then Dark Harvest is going to be the best possible weapon for clearing the moon events.

 

[Sia_Later]

Holy crap this summoner argument has gone on forever, and i think it just started from wanting flasks to affect whips. So lets do a pros vs cons list
Pros

• Allows more options for the summoner class to inflict debuffs
• (debatabley good) buffs summmoners that wish to use primarily whips as their weapon

Cons

• Could potentially throw off the balance of the game
• Would add in another inconsistency (in addition to melee attack speed affecting whips), unless they change flasks tooltip to specifically include whips

So overall, the cons in my opinion can be easily mitigated by changing the tooltip of flasks. And the balance issue i don't think would be a problem since summoners aren't the best class right now anyways. This leads me to the conclusion that if the devs have the time, it would be good to implement this change.

But, maybe i missed something, if i missed a pro or con, please tell me.

 

[Fishyfishfish]

So everyone thinks that whips need a buff?

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

So everyone thinks that whips need a buff?

I mean, it’s a lot more complicated than that but the general consensus here and most other places is that whips need to be better. The more controversial part of the discussion was if summoners needed a way to inflict extra debuffs, but almost everyone I’ve seen agrees whips need to be better in one way or another.

However, work being done to the whips has already been confirmed, and knowing the dev’s history, good buffs are very likely.

 

[qwerty3.14]

If you want to give pure summoner's ichor I'd rather it be in the form of a new minion or sentry. This would also be an interesting option for non summon focused builds.

I like the synergy some whips have with melee weapons, where you can use a whip to add tag damage and get a melee speed buff, then switch to your now buffed melee weapon and inflict some ichor, making whips inflict ichor would weaken this synergy. I'd probably stop using melee weapons on my summoner's as often and just use ranged weapons... even more than I already do.

As for buffing whips I would like to see the tag damage whips get roughly 50% more tag damage and buff the duration of the tag effects increased to 10 seconds which would make it on par ichor weapons and Betsy's wraith.

 

[Ilmarinen]

Hopefully some of @Leinfors 's changes are whip-related.

Even just making the whips longer would be a great buff to them.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

If you want to give pure summoner's ichor I'd rather it be in the form of a new minion or sentry. This would also be an interesting option for non summon focused builds.

I like the synergy some whips have with melee weapons, where you can use a whip to add tag damage and get a melee speed buff, then switch to your now buffed melee weapon and inflict some ichor, making whips inflict ichor would weaken this synergy. I'd probably stop using melee weapons on my summoner's as often and just use ranged weapons... even more than I already do.

As for buffing whips I would like to see the tag damage whips get roughly 50% more tag damage and buff the duration of the tag effects increased to 10 seconds which would make it on par ichor weapons and Betsy's wraith.

That’s an interesting strategy, I wouldn’t think to use the effect that way. I think that the speed buff is meant to be used with the whip, making the whip itself faster. However, this gives whips a backward synergy with themselves as they kill their own range, but I’m pretty sure higher speed killing whip range was unintentional.

Speaking of which, the place I prefer whips get buffed is in range and in knockback. The entire game, they are just barely too short to hit your target. A blanket 33% range buff on whips would suffice without being excessive imo. They also have an issue with their knockback being stupidly low (except Morningstar), which is especially bad with minions occasionally knocking enemies toward you. I also agree with the longer tag duration, but I think the higher tag damage would throw a wrench into things as a late game summon build already has extreme DPS. Maybe on earlier whips it would work. Though, the team already seems to be set on their changes so we just have to see what they came up with.

I still think adding flasks to whips would be fine, to help the summon class get a little bit more oomph and help give summoners more broadness. I don’t think minions would be a good idea as then they can just be abused for free ichor, but a sentry would work since you have to work around it.

On a separate note, there seems to be a lot of these “in theory” vs. “in practice” scenarios with whips, because their mechanics are pretty awkward. Just more evidence that they are too weak and need a buff.

 

[qwerty3.14]

That’s an interesting strategy, I wouldn’t think to use the effect that way. I think that the speed buff is meant to be used with the whip, making the whip itself faster. However, this gives whips a backward synergy with themselves as they kill their own range, but I’m pretty sure higher speed killing whip range was unintentional.

Melee speed doesn't shrink whips only speed modifers do that.

Speaking of which, the place I prefer whips get buffed is in range and in knockback. The entire game, they are just barely too short to hit your target. A blanket 33% range buff on whips would suffice without being excessive imo. They also have an issue with their knockback being stupidly low (except Morningstar), which is especially bad with minions occasionally knocking enemies toward you. I also agree with the longer tag duration, but I think the higher tag damage would throw a wrench into things as a late game summon build already has extreme DPS. Maybe on earlier whips it would work. Though, the team already seems to be set on their changes so we just have to see what they came up with.

I wouldn't mind a range buff to whips, or at least... make thier modifers make sense to where size modifers actually effect reach and not speed. The reason for the tag damage buff is because with the exception of the kaleidoscope every tag damage bonus is basicly a weaker ichor, and the kaelidoscope is on the same tier as betsy's wraith which gives roughly the same boost to summons but the kaelidoscope only boosts summons, has less range, and doesn't last as long as betsy's wraith.

 

[Sia_Later]

I don't really understand why speed modifiers affect whip size, it's so unintuitive and unnecessary in my opinion

i'm generally not a fan of blanket buffs like 33% range buff, 50% more tag damage because it's kinda lazy and some whips need more support than others.

but on the other hand i wouldn't mind the tag effect lasting for 10 seconds though