Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
In general, I feel as if the application of immunities among certain enemies should be revisited. For example, certain specific enemies are immune to all debuffs, which includes the Ichor debuff, the Daybroken debuff inflicted by the Solar weapons, the Bone Javelin's special Penetrated debuff, the Oiled debuff inflicted by the Huntress and Red Riding sets, and the Betsy's Curse debuff inflicted by Betsy's Wrath. There doesn't seem to be any specific reason why these enemies should be immune to these debuffs. For example, why should the Ghost / Desert Spirit / Dungeon Spirit / Poltergeist be immune to these five debuffs, while the Wraith / Reaper aren't? Why is The Destroyer and its Probes immune to these debuffs, while the Eater of Worlds is still susceptible to them? And out of all the enemies from the Lunar events, what's so special about the Milkyway Weaver and Evolution Beast that they should have immunity to these debuffs? Why should the Goblin Summoner?

In particular, Daybroken, Penetrated, and Betsy's Wrath feel to me like intrinsic qualities of the weapons they are associated with, and it doesn't seem to me that anything should be immune to them except in specific cases. The same goes for Oiled, which isn't going to affect anything that's already immune to flame debuffs, so I see no reason why anything should have specific immunity to it.

Ichor is an interesting case, as no enemies seem to have specific immunity to it – the only ones that do are those with universal immunity. This gives the Golden Shower and all items crafted using Ichor a huge advantage over its Corruption counterpart, the Cursed Flames, because so many more enemies are immune to Cursed Flames than Ichor. There should be more enemies that are specifically immune to it. Or possibly, less enemies should be immune to Cursed Flames.

Meanwhile, very few enemies from the Snow and Ice biomes are immune to the Frostburn debuff. In fact, only a few enemies in the game have specific immunity to it, including the Ice Elemental, Ice Golem, Sand Elemental, and Duke Fishron – all others immune to it have universal immunity. It seems to me that any enemy immune to On Fire, Cursed Flames, and Shadowflame should also be immune to Frostburn. Other enemies made of ice, such as the Ice Slime, Spiked Ice Slime, Icy Merman, Ice Tortoise, Flocko, and Ice Queen should also be immune.

Other specific cases:
– Solar Pillar enemies should be immune On Fire, Cursed Flames, and Shadowflame (and possibly Frostburn). Currently, the only Solar Pillar enemy that has these immunities is the Corite.
– Hell Armored bones are already immune to On Fire, but not Cursed Flames or Shadowflame. Most fire-themed enemies in the game are immune to all three (and should probably also be immune to Frostburn).
– For some odd reason, a lot of Pumpkin Moon enemies seem to have universal immunity, including the Hellhound, Headless Horseman, Mourning Wood, and Pumpking. Ideally, their lists of immunities (and those of other enemies with universal immunity) should have pointless immunities excised.
– Sand Elemental should probably be immune to On Fire, Cursed Flames, and Shadowflame in addition to Frostburn.
– Duke Fishron is already immune to On Fire and Frostburn, but for some reason is not immune to Cursed Flames or Shadowflame.
 
Last edited:
Codiferus said:
He likes the Snow Biome but that's the only thing the Santa likes/loves and Santa hates the Tax Collector.
Click to expand...

Well, not like you're going to have Santa with you at all times. Plus, you can have two different towns in the Snow Biome or just have either Santa's or Tax Collector's house be away from town and on its own. That way either Tax Collector won't annoy other NPCs, or you'll have a separate house for rare occasions Santa IS about.
 
Heroman3003 said:
Plus, you can have two different towns in the Snow Biome or just have either Santa's or Tax Collector's house be away from town and on its own.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's probably what I'm going to have to do I'm just a little upset that it's not as elegant of a solution like I was trying to find.
 
Honestly, Tax Collector not being happy does not have any mechanical effect as far as I can see regardless, and being always unhappy perfectly fits his character.
 
Pasting from another thread regarding the new mega sword that is like 'the one ring':

"If all your other classes feel stupid standing next to you there is a problem.
Unless that is the intent. Do you think the devs wanted 75% of the players to feel stupid and insignificant for not choosing melee?
My son (8) chose melee and my daughter (9) plays summoner and she died then watched her brother solo moon lord and cried "dad..I can't do anything, I just die and he kills every pillar and boss."
She has since then discarded the whip and uses the same sword."

My kids are both same skill level and enjoy playing together, however the zenith just makes other classes feel bad.

Melee isnt in harms way more than other classes (the old tired excuse) yet they get highest armor, regen, damage, and no resource management.

My daughter didnt care before, but this sword is so broken it made her feel pointless.
I just ask to consider this please adjusting. Melee got a sword and everyone else is holding a dull spoon. If you halved its damage...its still better than meowmere. HALVED!
 
Last edited:
After attempting to do the Underground Desert a few times, I am finding the Fossil Armor not really worth going for. From what I read, it doesn't give much defense and the only real benefit is a 9% critical strike chance for ranged attacks. The Underground Desert is too hard to make any progress in for such a paltry bonus.
 
Melee seems like it was initially balanced to have high defense in exchange for poor range. This is the reason why there are so many broadswords. However, no one would ever use plain broadswords if they had access to better, long-ranged melee weapons. Therefore, most broadswords are seen as useless unless they fire a projectile.

My argument is that the initial idea (high defense, low range) was doomed from the start. Someone playing with only close ranged weapons would struggle against bosses in normal mode, and hit a brick wall in expert mode. No amount of defense would make up for that. Without projectiles, melee would be the worst bossing class by a mile... in a game where almost every stage of progression is gated behind a boss. Clearly, melee needs to have projectiles. And if they depend on projectiles for viability, then you can kind of see why no one ever used the Breaker Blade or Keybrand before, and why they probably won't jump in popularity in 1.4 after getting buffed.
 
I'm not sure how other players have felt about it, but the problem my friends and I are running into is pre-mechanical boss balance. We're playing on a 4-player master world and each of us is going each major class (Melee, Ranged, Magic, and Summoner). We found that up until hardmode, it was a satisfyingly difficult experience and incredibly enjoyable. Once we attempted to fight the destroyer, we were no match, despite our preparations in gathering the best weapons and armor pre-mechanical boss. Looking at other guides for clearing the destroyer, all of the guides recommended single player with a ranged loadout. Sure enough, once we all left the server and let our friend fight the boss, he was able to win. I'm not sure if my team's strategy is off, but I think the balance issue is that the mechanical bosses are optimally taken out with ranged loadouts (daedalus stormbow + Holy Arrows) instead of having the freedom of picking whichever class you want. I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way? Does anybody else think that the classes are unbalanced or that multiplayer scaling is a bit too high especially on master mode?
 
Baconfry said:
Melee seems like it was initially balanced to have high defense in exchange for poor range. This is the reason why there are so many broadswords. However, no one would ever use plain broadswords if they had access to better, long-ranged melee weapons. Therefore, most broadswords are seen as useless unless they fire a projectile.

My argument is that the initial idea (high defense, low range) was doomed from the start. Someone playing with only close ranged weapons would struggle against bosses in normal mode, and hit a brick wall in expert mode. No amount of defense would make up for that. Without projectiles, melee would be the worst bossing class by a mile... in a game where almost every stage of progression is gated behind a boss. Clearly, melee needs to have projectiles. And if they depend on projectiles for viability, then you can kind of see why no one ever used the Breaker Blade or Keybrand before, and why they probably won't jump in popularity in 1.4 after getting buffed.
Click to expand...

Well, it is possible if you take the numbers high enough, the Fetid Baghnakhs being the prime example. But even then, they fail miserably against enemies that like to keep their distance from you.

In regards to the Zenith itself, I don't really see why it matters; by the time you've crafted it you've proven that you can consistently beat everything the game has to offer without it.
 
If they do the same damage perhaps that's not a good thing. A rolling cactus would do serious damage but not a rolling boulder type damage.

I think the rolling cactus should be tweaked to do lower damage. Not a whole lot less but noticably less than a boulder. They don't need to do equal damage and they aren't equally implemented or encountered as often as each other.
 
Crystal Assassin armor is not very interesting, and probably not very good, either, considering that it drops from a Hardmode boss. If I were to design a non-class specific armor set, instead of making it specific to no class, I would make it specific to EVERY class.

I propose adding X% melee speed, X% reduced mana usage, X% ammo conservation, and 1 minion capacity to Crystal Assassin armor. This is definitely an easy change to make; the hardest part will be getting approval, probably.

As it stands, this armor set is arguably worse than Frost armor, and absolutely worse if you swap the legs for, like, Spider Greaves or something.
 
I've been having a blast with the update so far, but here's a little suggestion for the luck situation.

My proposal is well,

1.- The torches need to have a lesser impact (half?) and no negative impact, the idea being to keep the current values for biome campfires.

(Motivation being : "Players have been using default torches to color certain aspects of their caves, farms and all of that stuff for years now. Forcing a specific kind of torch to a specific kind of biome limits the freedom and sandbox aspect Terraria has always offered. Making it have positive benefits only will still incentivize players to use the biome specifc torches without taking away the freedom the players have been enjoying over the past few years.)

(And yes, keeping a small bonus for the torches is awesome because the biome specific torches really do enhance the intended mood and vibe of each biome.)

2.- Also the luck system should be explained in game. Making players aware of its existence.

A provided solution would be a description that increases awareness.

Original.png
->
Improved.png


(Maybe add 'provides light' to the description as well to be more in line with other torches)

3.- If the luck penalty is not gonna get removed from torches in the caves, arena's and exploration segments, an idea is to remove the torch luck inside town areas.

(Motivation being: "This way players have more freedom and possibilities with decorating their town village without intervening with the luck system.")

4.- Furthermore, the ladybug luck should be obtainable by either making the terrarium have an area of effect aura (for arenas) or creating a lucky ladybug bottle or something that you can hang somewhere. That or create a "Sharpening Station" for luck, by that I mean an intractable that provides the buff without having to drop the bug, touch it and catch it again.

(Motivation being: "Most other buffs in game are easily obtained by either using a consumable? This would be in line with the quality of life theme that 1.4 has going for it by reducing the complexity of obtaining the ladybug buff.")
 
Last edited:
Scratch Lunin said:
In the early game, even a few extra damage points on your weapon are necessary for survival (though the same could be said for Hardmode too). Taking those extra points away simply because you had the wrong torch is not a good thing. Why should a weapon do less damage because you placed a desert torch in the Corruption? It makes zero sense and actually makes the game less fun. This is a problem and it needs to be fixed in some way. Either take away the negative luck effects from torches, or remove torch luck altogether.
Click to expand...
Another thing I haven't seen noted is that this invisible damage and drop rate nerf severely guts hardcore players, who already have to claw and scrape for every bit of survivability. For a hardcore character, less damage means more chances for death. And hardcore's already stressful enough as it is.

Additionally, no one I've seen comment on torch luck seems to believe it was a good idea to make default torches kill your luck. I would seriously give this ill-conceived mechanic even odds of getting gutted and/or removed by some enterprising modder once TModLoader reaches 1.4. And when modders make a point to excise a particular mechanic from the game, that, to me, sends a very clear message.
 
Haven't posted in a while, (or much at all really), but I just had to chip in about the whole luck mechanic. The whole torch luck thing is just bonkers. As many have pointed out, they should at the very least remove the negative penalty from regular torches. And I see that it's less hated, but I really find the whole ladybug luck thing to be super weird. I know it's easy, but carrying a lady bug in my hotbar just to release and catch every 10 minutes just for the boost is crazy annoying. I was thinking that maybe if you could accomplish the same thing with by using the ladybug terrarium item it wouldn't be quite as bad as you could refresh it far more conveniently in designated farms and every time you return to your base.
 
Zenith is fine. It's post Moon Lord for a reason, people. It's nothing more than a bragging rights reward, because you can't get it without beating the hardest boss in the game first. It's incredibly powerful, sure, but there are no more challenges left to conquer with that power.

I'm also for making non-biome themed torches luck neutral. Having appropriate torches give extra luck as a bonus is cool, but punishing players for not going out of their way to always place the appropriate torch seems excessive. Particularly since:
A: Placing standard torches is a thing players have been doing for years, and will continue doing unaware it's making their game harder and grindier.
B: The mechanic is only hinted at. If you're going to be punished for something you'd not expect, something most players would do by default, you should be made aware of it, and quickly.
C: Crafting some of the biome torches in significant quanties is quite expensive.
D: If you learn about this mechanic later into a world, good luck fixing it. You'll have already placed standard torches everywhere, have fun replacing them all.

Oh, and luck effecting damage is probably not good... Drop rates are one thing, but I think combat should be more consistent.

Reaver Shark needs a buff. Nerfing it such that it doesn't let you skip progression is fine, but now there's very little reason to get it at all, it's just a (worse?) Gold/Platinum pickaxe. Maybe giving it a notably faster mining speed would make it feel worth going for, without breaking progression.

Gray Zapinator might be OP. Is it being effected by the meteorite armor set bonus intended? Because that's what it makes it so powerful.
 
An Easter Egg said:
Zenith is fine. It's post Moon Lord for a reason, people. It's nothing more than a bragging rights reward, because you can't get it without beating the hardest boss in the game first. It's incredibly powerful, sure, but there are no more challenges left to conquer with that power.
Click to expand...
Main issue with Zenith is not "why is it so strong" but more "why do only melee players get such a thing and not other classes"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom