Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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I'm with the idea that torch luck shouldn't have negative effects. The negative torch effect really becomes troublesome with the normal torch. Since this is the most widely available torch (easiest to make when in a pinch), I don't think they should have a penalty for being in literally any other biome other than forest and natural underground.

One scenario that is very plausible to happen is when the new hallowed/corrupt/crimson spreads after hardmode. It sounds extremely tedious to go back through all the caves to simply change the normal torch to the biome's respective torch.

I think that players should be rewarded placing down the correct torches, but not penalized for doing so.
I agree with proposed idea of lighting based luck being moved entirely to the campfires. Since campfires already have a mechanical effect and are not as much of a decor item most of time, and also arent used for basic "im going through and lighting my way".
I have a balance suggestion. Currently, the Mechanical Glove is considered superior to the Fire Gauntlet, which is crafted from it. This is because the Fire Gauntlet loses 2% of the Mechanical Glove's melee damage and speed buff, in return for setting enemies on fire. But the fire effect is generally not considered to make up for the 2% decrease. Also, the Fire Gauntlet's fire debuff doesn't stack with the new Magma Skull and Molten Skull Rose – using it with either of those accessories makes the fire effect entirely redundant.

The 2% decrease is presumably intended for balance reasons, because of stacking with the Mechanical Glove.

I wonder if some additional benefit could be introduced, such as having it inflict a unique debuff that is more powerful, or increase your defense by 2 for each nearby enemy that's on fire, or something similar. Another option is to test it out with its bonus increased to 12%, and see if it becomes egregiously powerful in combination with the Mechanical Glove.
Another thing I'd like to see done: Make it so that piercing damage dealt by weapons and piercing damage dealt by minions don't affect each other, and have each use separate invulnerability frames. The current system is very confusing, and results in a lot of combinations being rendered inefficient; e.g., Stardust Dragon with any piercing weapon. The fact that piercing damage limits piercing damage from other sources also disproportionately affects Summoners, arbitrarily limiting what kinds of weapons they can effectively use in conjunction with their minions.

I also think that piercing ammunition types like Unholy Arrows, Jester's Arrows, Meteor Shot, and Chlorophyte Arrows should be updated to not cancel each other's damage, as currently these ammunition types have serious antisynergy with rapid-fire and multishot weapons.
Now that i think about ecology, can we replace Clementiator with some kind of automatic 5-tile radius Powder dispencer (or Solution dispencer, solutions are fine too) and then reintroduce Clementiator as a DCU-tier tool. I mean as hard to obtain as DCU. I'm asking because introduction of Clementiator removed that pressing feeling that the world is going to ruin, should you focus on bosses and mobs and not act fast to contain Corruption.

Late edit in case of future answer: i checked changelogs and now see that Clentaminator(sic!) was added in 1.2 when Golem was final boss and no Expert Mode increased coin rates made its cost of 2P prohibitive enough for it to be considered endgame item. But with much more content today i think it needs to be changed. Btw here is another idea for mid-game replacement: some more powerful alternative of Sunflower just to protect numerous Happiness-based towns from Corruption. Might be craftable with Hallowed Bars.
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Some further suggestions:
— Updates to the Blizzard event; for example, having Ice biome enemies such as Undead Vikings spawn on the surface, instead of having default rain enemies spawn
— An overhaul of the sprites of the Corrupt Bunny, Corrupt Goldfish, and Corrupt Penguin to be worthy of their Crimson counterparts, with a darker rotting appearance
— Rebalance the Blood Feeder to be stronger than the Corrupt Goldfish and Vicious Goldish
— Have Vicious Goldfish spawn naturally in Crimson waters like the Corrupt Goldfish does in Corruption waters
— Rename Baby Skeletron pet to Baby Guardian, giving it a distinct role as the "Dungeon Guardian" pet in comparison to Skeletron Jr.

It would also be excellent if the Frost Legion event could receive some kind of update or addition to make it more relevant, but that's probably beyond the scope of this thread.
One thing I'll remind everyone posting here is that the liberties I have for making changes are, for the most part, item based stat changes, and maybe minor functionality reworks. Making wholesale adjustments to non-item/combat mechanics, or even entirely new systems, is outside of both the scope of my abilities, my authority, and this discussion, unfortunately. This isn't really a suggestion thread. So I'll listen to the feedback, but its less likely to bear fruit, sorry! :)

A very extensive post about accessories

I'll start by saying that with the time I had available, the vast majority of my focus was dedicated to weapon and some armor review. Only a handful of accessories had time to be reviewed (most notably, a full wing rebalance). But I would love to revisit accessories at some point, and MOST of your changes might be "within the realm" of what we are talking about.

[*]Allow meteorite to be destroyed by explosions again.

We made this change for a reason. Meteorites are supposed to offer some form of challenge/strategy, and just tossing 3-4 dynamite down and walking is way too easy.

Flower Boots
in their current iteration, Flower Boots are of minimal use.

Flower Boots were never meant to be bait farms. In short, that is not their purpose, and "bringing that back as the supported purpose of them" is unlikely to happen.

Honestly, they are vanity boots that happen to have a non-vanity tinker, for design purposes.

Move the Band of Starpower to a Sky crate / Floating Island chest, and move the Crimson Rod to a Blood Moon drop / fishing catch.
Lowers the loot pool by 1 for Shadow Orbs / Crimson Hearts and the evil crates, but makes two very useful items available in all worlds.

A very interesting idea here. I can see what you are going for. I think it will be a very hard sell to get approved. Maybe a different solution might work better, but I'm not dismissing the idea. There is a certain "risk" when taking content away from X and giving it to Y. It can be perceived as a net loss, and I'd be concerned about this particular solution for that reason.

Beekeeper has been gutted. The loss of autoswing hurt it a ton and the lowered stats pour salt in that wound. It was generally considered to be the worst Queen Bee drop and the only notable thing about it was not being good yet usable for WoF melee, so I don't understand why it got nerfed this much.

So I'll say that I have complex feelings here.
1. I was not the one who made this change, so I'm not fully sure what the intended goal here was.
2. Bee Keeper was pretty strong for a pre-HM sword, arguably one of the best. The loss of the autoswing was huge, but the stat reduction was fairly small. Unless I were to in-turn buff multiple-end-Pre-HM swords in turn, Bee Keeper is still fairly high end.
3. Describing it as one of the worst Queen Bee drops does not ring true to me. In fact, I've often heard it spoken of as being somewhat overpowered, and rendering other melee weapons worthless.

Not to say that there won't be adjustments here, but I think the description of the change here is a bit stronger than what I perceive as accurate. I think I'd like to look at returning the autoswing but leaving the rest in-tact.

* In 1.3, the Dart Rifle and Pistol were either incredibly strong enemy killers when used with Crystal Darts; an ammo type that bounces everywhere, pierces and has this pseudo-homing effect, and incredibly strong boss killers when used with Cursed and especially Ichor Darts. In 1.4 the Gun+Dart got an 18% damage up. Why.

* I have no idea why Chik got nerfed when every other HM yoyo that is arguably easier to get got a big buff to damage.

These were also changes I was not involved with (Darts/pre-Mech Yoyo revisions). I'd have to revisit them entirely.

I'm really bothered by how the traveling merchant seems to be effected by the happiness system, He never seems to be happy, raising the prices of items, and it's not like I can move him to another biome where he might be happier, since its the traveling merchant.

I think this was an oversight and meant to be removed, I'll look into it.

2% variation between Mech and Fire Gloves

This one is high on my list to look into. I think the core philosophy was sound: too much melee stacking could get pretty strong. But melee isn't strong. I don't believe at this phase in the game that my rebalance effects can TRULY close the gap between the classes, I'm only trying to do as much good as possible. And this 2% isn't going to make melee broken, and it might do a little good. So its on my list, but as with everything, no promises. :)

Piercing frames

So, piercing stuff is a weird, mixed bag. It stems from some technical limitations relating to, well, "what happens when you shoot a thing that can keep hitting through a target". You don't want it to hit twice instantly and not pass through. So it needs a cooldown. And so that cooldown, on fast hitting weapons, induces a penalty, because you can't hit too often.

Well, it seems that now, we have a workaround. If you've read the changelog, you'll see that several things, NOTABLY some minions, no longer share immunity frame time with other weapons.

This comes at a cost.
1. What was once a penalty, now removed, may result in a weapon that is way too strong, and needs to be nerfed. For example, the revised Poison/Venom Staves. We've given those two spells "independent piercing", so that ALL of their shots can hit on their own immunity timers. The consequence of this change was a MASSIVE 5-7x increase in DPS. Some of that was intended. Most of it was not. So it had to be very heavily counterbalanced back so that the new form was not too strong, while also becoming better than it was. These sorts of changes take much more time and testing than minor tweaks, because they may end up being blatantly OP, or even blatantly underpowered (potentially worse than they were before)

2. As I understand it, this independent immunity timer has some performance costs that could make Terraria run slower when used. Yoraiz0r only authorizes it for use on an individual basis, not on a global basis. Throwing it on a minion or five is one thing, but tossing it onto Chain Gun meteor shot could substantially impact performance. I'll have to discuss ANY sort of piercing frame changes with Yorai to make sure we aren't costing game performance for the sake of balance.
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2. As I understand it, this independent immunity timer has some performance costs that could make Terraria run slower when used. Yoraiz0r only authorizes it for use on an individual basis, not on a global basis. Throwing it on a minion or five is one thing, but tossing it onto Chain Gun meteor shot could substantially impact performance. I'll have to discuss ANY sort of piercing frame changes with Yorai to make sure we aren't costing game performance for the sake of balance.

Ah, I see. That makes a lot of sense. Foolish I for not looking closely enough at the patch notes!

I have to say, I am quite glad to see that this has been implemented with so many minions. That goes a long way towards making things more intuitive.
2. As I understand it, this independent immunity timer has some performance costs that could make Terraria run slower when used. Yoraiz0r only authorizes it for use on an individual basis, not on a global basis. Throwing it on a minion or five is one thing, but tossing it onto Chain Gun meteor shot could substantially impact performance. I'll have to discuss ANY sort of piercing frame changes with Yorai to make sure we aren't costing game performance for the sake of balance.
Um... don't lumite bullets and arrows already use Local NPC Immunity?
Um... don't lumite bullets and arrows already use Local NPC Immunity?

It looks like they do, but I was not involved in their creation, they were added by Yorai. So as I said, any new additions would need his approval, and I've been led to understand it is not something we will be adding to every example of piercing damage simply on principle.
It probably isn't in your ability, but I would really like to be able to find sandstorm bottles in oasis crates or sandstone chests, as that was a new thing I was really hoping for so I could get one without searching multiple worlds.

(this probably doesn't fall under balance, but I don't really know where else to say it, sooooooo)
I would also like for the magic carpet to be usable after every jump (like your first one or with jump bottles) instead of after every single jump + rocket boots (and tinkers), where you could hold jump after you jump to use the carpet, but idk if that wouldn't work with rocket boots or wings.
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Alright, with regard to the weapon rebalances, I've formed some first impressions. Let's start with the good ones.

Staff of Earth performs excellently now. It's been absolutely crushing the Hardmode dungeon and I can't wait to test it against the martians, though I expect it to do little against the Saucer.​
Heat Ray doesn't seem to be worse off than before. It is slightly stronger than Leaf Blower and much more accurate. I like it.​
Spectre Staff is also a fine weapon. It would be better if the projectiles didn't disappear upon colliding with walls. Not entirely sure if it is better than Rainbow Rod.​
Keybrand looks a lot more impressive, though (to be fair) a lot of those high damage numbers are actually overkill. It still suffers from broadsword problems, but it might be the best "true melee" broadsword for its tier, for what that's worth.​
Fetid Baghnakhs and Daedalus Stormbow remain quite good after being nerfed. The former is a nice get-off-me option, and the latter still does reasonably well as a single-target barrage against slow, large enemies.​
Clinger Staff now works the way most people originally expected it to work. I think it's quite good.​
Flamelash is very, very cool. I was unable to use it properly without mana regen potions, but it easily outclasses some low-tier HM weapons now.​
Brain of Confusion is also very good now. However, it spawns a small floating brain thing every time I get hit, which confuses me. What does it mean?​

And as for the negatives:

Breaker Blade is still not doing great. Previously it would take like five hits to kill the average HM enemy; now it takes four. This makes little difference in the long run, since its range is still rather poor. The only bonus is that it usually one-shots preHM enemies, which isn't much of a bonus. Raw damage used to be a problem for it, but it was one of many problems it suffered from. Multiple of its issues can be tied to its slowness, so consider improving its swing speed.​
(In general, most broadswords without projectiles are poor weapons. Hopefully this can be revisited sometime soon.)​
Poison Staff previously suffered from poor single-target DPS and accuracy, and was impossible to stunlock things with. Now its single-target DPS is better, but still not very good compared to ranged options (Dart Pistol, Clockwork + Ichor). Its other flaws have remained unchanged, except for its range, which is now worse. The projectile spread now hinders it a lot more than it did previously. I would try tweaking its velocity and seeing if it helps.​
Anchor still has next-to-no crowd control. I compared it to Sunfury and it did not compare favorably. Single-target is passable but not that impressive compared to top-tier preHM weapons. I would try and see if it could be repurposed as a true flail. If not, see if its velocity and gravity can be increased. Another possible change that might be within the realm of what you can do: have the Anchor extend while the attack is held, and retract when released. This would make it at least safer to use against airborne enemies.​
Blood Thorn is worse than 1.3 Crystal Vile Shard. It has a very high mana cost and seems to be doing 1 damage to a lot of enemies. Easily needs higher base damage, possibly also a reduction in mana cost. Also consider spawning blood thorns based on cursor position rather than player position.​
Rainbow Crystal Staff. I think I am comfortable saying that it is now better than all the tier 3 tavernkeep sentries, but compared to the other Moon Lord weapons, it is still extremely unimpressive. Most endgame threats are simply too fast for it. It looks out of place on a drop table that also includes the likes of Last Prism and Star Wrath. Consider reducing the explosion delay to zero, so the tracking beam and explosion appear at the same time.​
In general, mana star drop rate appears to have been reduced drastically. I'm not sure if this change was intended or not, but it makes the Celestial Magnet a rather poor accessory now.​
Nano Bullet was previously unused because its effect wasn't useful. Raw damage was not the problem. I wonder if it's possible to make it ricochet once?​
Titanium armor now has a less useful set bonus than Orichalcum and Palladium. This isn't something that can be solved by a stat buff, but I wonder if there's a way to make the shards lag behind the player a bit, so they can be used more effectively like an orbital (like Guppy's Hairball from The Binding of Isaac).​
they do... otherwise they would be useless with the phantasm.
I was wondering about that. That's why I think it would be great if the Unholy Arrows, Jester's Arrows, and Chlorophyte Arrows could be updated to be the same way. Also, if the same workaround that was implemented on the Luminite Bullets could be added to Meteor Shots (which as far as I can tell is the only other piercing bullet).
It looks like they do, but I was not involved in their creation, they were added by Yorai. So as I said, any new additions would need his approval, and I've been led to understand it is not something we will be adding to every example of piercing damage simply on principle.
Make Cursed Inferno from cursed Flames affect more enemies it is unacceptable that the power disparity between the Golden Shower and it is so big. Making less enemies immune to the cursed inferno debuff will help make this weapon more versatile and less hit or miss. A start would be making some of the enemies that are immune to ichor not immune to the cursed inferno debuff.
This isn't really a suggestion thread. So I'll listen to the feedback, but its less likely to bear fruit, sorry!
From my perspective, this thread definitely seems like it's getting more done than near-any suggestion I've seen or made. I'm glad one of you is actually directly communicating with the forum folks like this.

...and MOST of your changes might be "within the realm" of what we are tal
Oooohh, that's actually really good to hear! That gives me something to hope for.
Yeah, your message seems to have cut off, there.
Okay, seriously, though, that really excites me to hear. But which items aren't within the realm of possibility, if you don't mind me asking?

I'll mention later that I have some thoughts about a new mechanic we have that could be used to make the Bees a little better without "buffing" them per say. Not going to elaborate on it now, it'll take a lot of experimentation to see if its viable.

-Honey Balloon-

Yeah, I've had some off-beat ideas for this myself, like . . . ditch the reactive-bees, maybe make it spawn a bee when jumping, IDK. Would be something worth exploring, I think a buff to it is an easy sell.

-Tsunami in a Bottle-

Sometimes a jump is just a jump. Its defining feature is how easy it is to get through fishing. Doesn't necessarily need to have unique quirks . . . it really doesn't need a buff.


I think it would be fun to do an Alt-Trio and then ultimately a "Cloud of Balloons", bring it full circle. Something I've pushed for internally, but did not get approval on.

-Pyramid Loot-

This is not one I currently have the power to change. I would like to, but it is a no-go for now.

-Shark Tooth Necklace-

I think, as you say, defense piercing on accessories pales rather significantly in contrast to % based damage. Maybe its just an accessory that simply works best pre-HM, and isn't meant to scale up. I would say that part of the problem is that mid-to-late game defense is VERY inconsistently balanced, with enemies in the same zone often fluctuating dramatically in defense value. It makes defense-mitigating effects a bit of a wildcard, and while Ichor exists, its a situation I'm trying to avoid repeating on the whole.

-Paladin's Shield / Hero's Shield-

That would be a relatively tall order in terms of buffing general Defense stat accessibility. And while I recognize the limitations of the Defense stat, I'd be hesitant to toss that much onto one (and inevitably both) of these, due to the repercussions that could come from, say, a Mage deciding to double down on shields that add +38 Defense.

-Band of Starpower-

As you say, not much to say here. But its also not something I'll have an easy time getting approved. I'm interested in interesting solutions to this problem, ones that I'll have success getting approved.

-Ice Skates + Diving Gear-

As you say, its a situational item in a game that doesn't have tremendous amounts of underwater exploration, and the frequency with which you spend running on ice is limited. And yet, that is their role. They are situational items with a limited niche, much like Lava Waders are/were. You say Ice Skates feels shoe-horned in, but taking a pure utility item and combining it with one of the strongest accessories in the game feels much the same. I don't think there is too much that can be done here, aside from general buffs to its intended functionality.

Jellyfish Necklace/Diving Gear

I'd be interested in experimenting with a brightness buff here. I'm not sure a Shine Potion effect would fly though, mostly because we added an item that does much the same already. I'd say "ooh, new tinker idea", but new tinkers aren't likely in this discussion.

-Star Cloak-

You know, I can't speak to increasing the damage dramatically, but there is something I might be able to do with this accessory, a new feature we've experimentally utilized in a few of 1.4's balance changes an items. I think there's something to consider here.

-Cobalt Shield and Cross Necklace-
Interesting and atypical opinion here. The immunity frames have long been a popular mainstay of many builds, and I wouldn't consider the functionality to be underpowered. Nor would I consider Cobalt Shield to be in need of a buff (and if you were to add the buff to Cobalt Shield, it would be awkward if it was removed later in subsequent tinkers, as you soon point out with Dunrider Boots).

-Mana Cloak-
IIRC, the stars have a boosted homing effect and come to the player very easily. They aren't too hard to go get. Either way, Mana accessories are rather swamped with mana restoration stuff, with a variety of options for different playstyles. They don't all need to offer exactly the same benefits.

-Dunerider Boots
Duneriders are tricky . . . you may notice that one of the hotfix changes we made was giving it a tinker into Spectre Boots. This is because prior, it had nothing. It was just an end to itself. It was what it was . . . "boots for if you go to the desert, with a perk". We added the tinker so that it wasn't a dead end. You are correct that its an awkward design, but the alternative at the time was either "nothing special at all, just a clone of Hermes" or "no tinker at all, a dead end". The most likely solution, if there is one, that I can see, is an odd-side-grade tinker, much like Lava Waders were all of this time, and then you KNOW the inevitable cry for tinkering into Terraspark Boots will follow, and I think that's going to stop that from coming to fruition in the first place.

The multi-biome suggestion is interesting but I don't think I could swing it in regards to the long term implications as the crafting tree worked up to Terraspark Boots.

May as well consider it a vehicle for free prefixes on an otherwise row of empty slots, to be honest, given when you obtain it. It does no harm for an ultra-early game item, and is valuable for later upgrades.

Anklet of the Wind
In tandem with the Aglet suggestion, just blatantly buffing the speed on these together might be hard to justify on my end. Its true: they are basically glorified materials. Once upon a 1.0, Anklet served an independent purpose, but even if it had independent value, wouldn't it just be crafted away instantly anyway? That's just my take.

Obsidian Rose
The ideal scenario IMO, WITHOUT adding new items to the game, would be including it in the Lava Wader tinker and add its benefits to it. It synergizes well (7 seconds immunity, and if you do run out, reduced damage). Which would furthermore be a side-effect buff to Terraspark Boots, which . . . might make it a hard sell, because Terraspark Boots were a concession that I've spent the last 5 years striving to get.

-The Magma Stone/Molten Skull Rose/Fire Gauntlets-
On Fire, to me, is a doomed buff. It doesn't do enough damage to be useful for most of the game, but if it was buffed too much, it would do too much damage early game, because its highly accessible. Fractional damage bonuses don't really work because the scaling would be tremendous. DoT multipliers like the Huntress armor were basically a failed experiment (one I would like to buff, for what its worth).

Burning, as an enemy DoT, is going to be an extremely hard sell, as its basically a freebie +50 DPS per afflicted target for all melee users for the rest of time.

As for the Fire Gauntlets themself: the lost DPS exists for a reason, but it is a reason long since rendered irrelevant by Melee's relative underperformance. I'm going to push for it to at least get that 2% back. As for additional bonuses, I can't promise anything.

-Fairy Boots-
Consider it a pair of vanity boots, as a vehicle for the new visual trail it leaves. Easiest explanation I can offer.

Also, I don't know who on the dev team said that Cursed Inferno deals 24 DPS and Venom 30, but I tested it and that's the value over TWO seconds. Even if that damage WAS per-second, 30 DPS is still really bad for players.

If its not doing enough damage, it may be a code issue, I'll look into it. I'm not going to say that 24/30 is "enough", but there is something to be said for iterations. This build was an experiment that increased their damage. Consequently, I was forced to raise the enemy damage (apparently that is non-negotiable) in turn, and for every buff to them I continue to add, enemy variants will have to increase in turn. I've already reduced durations somewhat to account for that, but anything further would be a straight buff to certain enemies. So that is something to be considered.

I'd like to look into increasing it further, but I feel that the 24/30 step is a good middle ground for starters. "Better" is always an improvement, even if its not "Perfect".
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