I don't see too big of an issue here. Its counterpart (Crimtane armor) has an insane set bonus already, and melee speed isn't that strong of a stat compared to regular damage. It'd only be noticeable with swords (of which there are a lot of bad ones in phm); any other melee weapon would pretty much just reach one tile further than before. I'd still use Molten armor with Sunfury and Cascade.
I don't see too big of an issue here. Its counterpart (Crimtane armor) has an insane set bonus already, and melee speed isn't that strong of a stat compared to regular damage. It'd only be noticeable with swords (of which there are a lot of bad ones in phm); any other melee weapon would pretty much just reach one tile further than before. I'd still use Molten armor with Sunfury and Cascade.
I can agree, but given how armors are treated now (by design), you don't see many armors from latter stages getting better buffs. And Crimtane armor is something that should be nerfed too.
Is Zenithed nerved or a alternative for other classes added yet?
I apologize if it is already implemented but this weapon already rendered my mage on wich i spent a long time on to build equipt and other things basicly worthless. I choose the class because it used to have the highest damage in the game. But now the melee class that had low damage as only disadvantege gets the highest damage in the game! Why?
1: The melee class has more disadvantages than just damage. Indeed, their damage isn't particularly low; it's mainly about having fewer dodging options because you need to get close to hurt things.
2: The word "Zenith" implies that there can only be one. If there was a second ultimate weapon, it wouldn't be the "Zenith" anymore.
I don't see the point in nerfing a weapon that is by design OP just because some users play under self-imposed restrictions that don't allow them to use it. I mean, with post-Moon Lord gear, most enemies are trivialized regardless of class. Why is it so important that every class gets a weapon that super-trivializes enemies that are already pretty trivial?
It's OK to use the Zenith as a mage; you will not be thrown into mage-jail for it.
1: The melee class has more disadvantages than just damage. Indeed, their damage isn't particularly low; it's mainly about having fewer dodging options because you need to get close to hurt things.
2: The word "Zenith" implies that there can only be one. If there was a second ultimate weapon, it wouldn't be the "Zenith" anymore.
I don't see the point in nerfing a weapon that is by design OP just because some users play under self-imposed restrictions that don't allow them to use it. I mean, with post-Moon Lord gear, most enemies are trivialized regardless of class. Why is it so important that every class gets a weapon that super-trivializes enemies that are already pretty trivial?
It's OK to use the Zenith as a mage; you will not be thrown into mage-jail for it.
I must add that Zenith is post-post-Moon Lord. I mean, the intent of having moon lord drops "balanced" is so you still have a fair re-fight. Zenith is a weapon that can obliterate Moon Lord, requiring no effort at all, but also a weapon that asks you to kill him AT LEAST twice. It's not a weapon "on the same tier" of Meowmere, it's the ultimate weapon in the game, and it should be obvious it outclasses everything else.
I still like to play post moonlord and I would still like to have a reason to use more than one weapon. And the whole point of the game is too power up. I mean you invest in a different class than melee and post moonlord it becomes redundant.
Hardmode weapons that need buffs post 1.4, using classifications based on Baconfry's tier list:
– Jousting Lance
– Hallowed Jousting Lance
– Ghastly Glaive (poor stats; bug causes it to miss every other swing)
– Breaker Blade
– All ore swords
– All phasesabers
– Slap Hand
– Anchor
– Cutlass
– Excalibur
– Explosive Trap Cane (limited range, long cooldown, and no knockback)
– Sleepy Octopod (poor DPS and range)
– Brand of the Inferno (ability is too difficult to utilize consistently, rendering the weapon useless)
– Chlorophyte Claymore
– Desert Tiger Staff (inaccurate and useless against bosses)
– Shadow Jousting Lance
– Butcher's Chainsaw
– Explosive Trap Staff (limited range, long cooldown, and no knockback)
– All ore spears
– KO Cannon
– Poison Staff
– Beam Sword
– Medusa Head
– Flower of Frost
– Frostbrand
– Shotgun
– Meteor Staff
– Obsidian Swordfish
– Blood Thorn
– Crystal Vile Shard
– Gungnir
– Magical Harp
– Optic Staff ("weak and inaccurate"; hamstrung by immunity frames)
– Flameburst Cane (poor DPS and can't aim up; range boost granted by Apprentice armor does nothing to improve weaknesses)
– Chlorophyte Saber
– Pygmy Staff (poor aim; can't attack flying enemies)
– Proximity Mine Launcher
– Staff of the Frost Hydra (poor accuracy; doesn't fire immediately on repositioning)
– Keybrand
– Morning Star
– Shadowbeam Staff
– Deadly Sphere Staff (hamstrung by immunity frames)
– Golem Fist
– Celebration
– The Horseman's Blade
– Tempest Staff (poor damage and accuracy)
– Starlight
– Flameburst Staff (poor DPS and can't aim up; range boost granted by Dark Artist armor does nothing to improve weaknesses)
– Rainbow Crystal Staff
– Lunar Portal Staff
– Laser Rifle
– Bananarang (good, but drops in quantities too low to be useful)
– Marrow
– Ice Bow
– Magic Dagger
– Frost Staff
– Ice Rod
– Gatligator
– Orange Zapinator
– Sky Fracture
– Cool Whip
– Crystal Serpent
– Bladetongue
– Shadowflame Hex Doll
– Pirate Staff
– Flying Knife
– Fetid Baghnakhs
– Chain Guillotines
– Durendal
– Arkhalis
– Light Disc
– Flamethrower
– Unholy Trident
– Mushroom Spear
– Lightning Aura Cane (doesn't work with summon tag damage)
– Tome of Infinite Wisdom
– Chlorophyte Partisan
– Leaf Blower
– Nettle Burst
– Wasp Gun
– Grenade Launcher
– Pulse Bow
– Inferno Fork
– Rocket Launcher
– Tactical Shotgun
– Sniper Rifle
– Psycho Knife
– Toxic Flask
– Nail Gun
– Heat Ray
– Stake Launcher
– Jack 'O Lantern Launcher
– Raven Staff (returning ravens are too slow)
– Bubble Gun
– Electrosphere Launcher
– Charged Blaster Cannon
– Christmas Tree Sword
– Elf Melter
– North Pole
– Lightning Aura Staff (doesn't work with summon tag damage)
– Flying Dragon
– Sky Dragon's Fury
– Aerial Bane
– Daybreak
I'd like to propose four changes which I think are more or less essential balance-wise:
There should be more of them per bar given how much of a pain in the butt chlorophyte is to craft. Yes I do realize that it's technically "metal", and all other "metal" bullets give 70 bullets per bar; the thing is, all other "metal" bullets are pre-hardmode, while Chlorophyte is almost endgame. I'd propose something between 200 (ichor, cursed) to 333 (luminite). I'ts strictly a convencience change since it's not gonna make any fight easier; just less tedious farming for ammo.
There are several points in Terraria for each class when your choices are rather limited in the best case, or almost nonexistent in the worst - where next tier of weapons for your class does not provide sufficient increase in firepower to match the challenge presented to you. In extreme cases, you might be even tempted to skip this tier completely and keep using your old weapon, since nothing better is available. Following weapons are (IMO) worst offenders, which definitely should be either moved to different tier or buffed to match options available to other classes at similar tier. If there are only one or two key features of these weapons which could be improved to make them absolutely usable (again, IMO), it will be included in parentheses:
Eventide (receiving beneficial effects only when using lowest-damage wooden arrows)
Keep in mind that i'm talking from PoV of single player: buffing weapons is meant to make them fun, useful and more rewarding too seek out - instead of adding content, reparing this which is not working well.
Shroomite Armor has two problems. First one is the existence of three headgears, the only difference between them is the type of weapon they are buffing with damage. It's not gamebreaking, but annoying, since it's wasted potential if you don't swap them out when swapping weapons. For the convenience of users, and convenience mostly, I'd change it to something else. If needed, you could even remove two of them and have the remaining one give +15% ranged damage buff.
Second problem is the set bonus. It's absolutely useless in any major fight, since it requires player to be stationary for 1.5 seconds in order to use (in game where boss fights are basically bullet hell), does not activate on mounts and also requires player to not deal damage to activate. On top of that, it will deadctivae should player take any damage.
Just look at this: in order to use the set bonus, you have to meet following criteria:
Be barefoot (refrain from using mounts)
Be stationary
Do not take any damage
Do not deal any damage for 1.5 s to activate the bonus
When ou look at the last three criteria, it becomes obvious that it's useless during any boss or even fight, or basically any fight at all. In a game all about dodging being stationary is deadly enough on it's own; however, being stationary and not taking any damage is nigh impossible. In this case, I won't even say that's my opinion - it's not, it's actually just undeniable fact.
There are many ways to fix that. I'll provide what I think would be the laziest working idea in a spoiler... at the end of this spoiler.
As you can guess, the problem I have Vortex Armor is similar to shroomite, just less. You cannot use it while mounted, dashing takes you out of it and attaining any considerable speed is also a rather brutal task given acceleration seems to be affected as well.
It's less of a problem since you can actually move and taking damage does not remove the stealth; this is however counteracted by the fact that it's top-notch endgame armor. At the end of your journey, you get something which is so hard and unrewarding to use. It simply is sad.
Shroomite:
Decrease time for getting full stealth from 1.5s to 0.1 - 0.25s
Retain stealth when taking damage
Change headgears, somehow. Instead of gun, arrow and rocket damage they could give (for example) ranged damage, movement speed and more armo.
Vortex:
Give it dedicated hotkey to easily turn it on/off when needed
Spears are so underused and have so little unique use that they need to be drastically buffed in some way. I think that spears should ignore more enemy immunity frames. Some obviously would be too strong if they all got a flat buff, so I think that only later game ones like the north pole, ore spears and the obsidian swordfish could really use it.
Spears are so underused and have so little unique use that they need to be drastically buffed in some way. I think that spears should ignore more enemy immunity frames. Some obviously would be too strong if they all got a flat buff, so I think that only later game ones like the north pole, ore spears and the obsidian swordfish could really use it.
Maybe all spears (Or at least Dark Lance onwards) could ignore ALL enemy defense. I still think Dark Lance and Gungnir should gain a damaging after image to make them useful against boss fights, but idk if that's within the scope of this thread.
Some of the armor stats leave me confused. A lot of the late game armors sets have worse stats than the Hallowed Set (which has one of the best set bonuses).
Here's a few examples and changes I would suggest:
Spectre Mask: 42 defense, 32% total damage boost (magic + crit), 8% move speed, 60 mana, 13% mana reduction
Hallowed Headgear: 31 defense, 38% total damage boost, 8% move speed, 100 mana
Hallowed set bonus completely outclasses Spectre Mask bonus and except for the lower defense, it's much better. Regardless if hallowed armor is nerfed on not, I think that Spectre deserves better stats, particularly the mask itself, Hallowed Headgear gives 12% damage and crit while the mask provides merely a 5% for both.
I would suggest increasing the mask boost from 5 to 10% for both damage and crit, this way the total damage jumps to 42%, a bit higher than Hallowed.
The added melee speed given by the hallowed set makes it compete in damage with certain weapons, and it has a better set bonus. Give Chloropyte Mask +6% melee speed. Also give the 5 defense back, no reason to take it off really.
Same crit chance, inferior damage compared to hallowed, I WOULD suggest something cool for the set bonus like adding an effect to arrows, but this is unfortunately not the place, so I suggest change damage from helmet from 16% to 21%.
Again, I would suggest something cool, like the leaf crystal restoring mana (actually I think this one is fairly easy to do no?), but for a simpler change, increase headgear damage from 16% to 22%
I'm aware that all chloropyte headpieces are supposed to have +16% damage, but balance-wise, that doesn't make much sense.
Squire Armor has +15% melee damage, I think that would be a good inclusion, maybe reduce defense a little to compensate. Also I think reducing breastplate hp/s by 1 and give the helmet 2hp/s would make it more of an upgrade.
Shroomite Headpieces: 20% buff to a specific weapon type
Hallowed Helmet: 23% buff to all ranged weapons
This armor is quite alright, but the headpieces are easily replaceable by the helmet, and the set bonus is mostly useless anyway. Change crit chance from 5% to 8% so it's the same as Hallowed.
Perhaps we have different definitions of "completely outclasses", but the Hallowed gear is only better in two places: higher total Mana and 6% more damage boost. The former is irrelevant next to the 13% reduced mana cost of the Spectre set, and the latter has to be weighed against a 30% increase in defense.
Personally, I'd say that there are tradeoffs, but the Spectre set comes out on top.
Indeed, overall, I'd say that your analysis essentially wants ever higher tier armor set to be better in every way than the previous tier's armor set. I'm not sure that's a thing the game needs. Personally, I like the idea that a lower-tier armor might be useful for some people using specific weapons/playstyles that play to its strengths, while the majority using standard play would just go to the next tier and be fine.
I know these aren't balance changes directly but I was wondering what other people's thoughts are on the following:
#1. Allowing the steampunker to sell the opposite variant of corrupt/crimson solution and flesh cloning vat/decay chamber while in the graveyard mini-biome, just like the dryad sells the opposite variant of corrupt/crimson seeds
#2. Including both crimson and corruption chests in the dungeon so that both the scourge and the vampire knives can be obtained on a single world. Since the creation of an artificial biome is necessary for both obtaining the shadow orb/crimson heart drops and for 100% completing the bestiary, I feel like this could be a logical change.
With the two changes above I believe it would be possible to obtain all corruption and crimson related items on a single world, which would not only add to the continuity of any given play-through but also remove the hassle of needing multiple worlds.
Also as a side note is there a reason the Christmas tree sword is not part of the zenith while the Horseman's Blade is? Just curious
Perhaps we have different definitions of "completely outclasses", but the Hallowed gear is only better in two places: higher total Mana and 6% more damage boost. The former is irrelevant next to the 13% reduced mana cost of the Spectre set, and the latter has to be weighed against a 30% increase in defense.
Personally, I'd say that there are tradeoffs, but the Spectre set comes out on top.
Indeed, overall, I'd say that your analysis essentially wants ever higher tier armor set to be better in every way than the previous tier's armor set. I'm not sure that's a thing the game needs. Personally, I like the idea that a lower-tier armor might be useful for some people using specific weapons/playstyles that play to its strengths, while the majority using standard play would just go to the next tier and be fine.
Negligibly inferior damage. 25% more defense and 20% ammo consumption bonus is plenty of justification for using it.
Ok I will take a few things back, I exaggerated a bit, but I don't want one armor to be completely superior to the other still. What I said completely outclasses the other was the Hallowed Armor set bonus (Holy Protection), which in hindsight might be a thing that should be nerfed rather than cause other buffs. Still it make the difference in defense almost negligible between other armors, and the Hallowed set itself doesn't lose in stats by much. That's what I wanted to address. Spectre Mask set bonus is decent but is weighted too much against the 14% damage boost you did get by swapping the Spectre Mask for Hallowed Headgear. And maybe it would be easier to nerf Hallowed damage a bit, but I personally find that giving the mask a slight buff wouldn't hurt, 10% like I suggested before may be to much, 7-8% maybe, so it make the difference less apparent. That or make the Mask set bonus even more consistent for DPS, because I'm convinced you're getting a much better deal with the hallowed set bonus (you gain less than 10% magic dps with the Mask orbs if you're firing with a fast weapon).
For the Chloropyte set, yeah, I probably am hunting the wrong thing. The issue is that Hallowed set bonus is so good you don't ever want to "upgrade" for chloropyte since it's way to expensive to and time consuming to craft. And this MIGHT be a problem with the hallowed set, on the other hand, if you're investing so much time to get chloropyte (keep in mind hallowed armor is basically free) you should expect at least a noticeable improvement, but you pretty much get same stats with an extra resource conservation buff (which is almost useless for rangers). The chloropyte set bonus IS good, it just fails to compete against a much stronger set bonus, that's why I thought that slight variations of it depending on the headpiece might be cool, but since it's unlikely to get approved, I suggested alternative, boring stat boosts.
Finally, I thought exactly about that for Shroomite, but we have it reversed. There is almost no point in using the Shroomite helmet in singleplayer simply because the hallowed headgear is better. With the buff I suggested, they're on the same level, but you still would use headgear because you can change weapons (23% buff to all ranged weapons is usually better in singleplayer than a bad set bonus and 23% buff to one type of ranged weapon).
Some of the armor stats leave me confused. A lot of the late game armors sets have worse stats than the Hallowed Set (which has one of the best set bonuses).
Here's a few examples and changes I would suggest:
Spectre Mask: 42 defense, 32% total damage boost (magic + crit), 8% move speed, 60 mana, 13% mana reduction
Hallowed Headgear: 31 defense, 38% total damage boost, 8% move speed, 100 mana
Hallowed set bonus completely outclasses Spectre Mask bonus and except for the lower defense, it's much better. Regardless if hallowed armor is nerfed on not, I think that Spectre deserves better stats, particularly the mask itself, Hallowed Headgear gives 12% damage and crit while the mask provides merely a 5% for both.
I would suggest increasing the mask boost from 5 to 10% for both damage and crit, this way the total damage jumps to 42%, a bit higher than Hallowed.
hallowed armor's setbonusneeds a nerf, although strangely the spectre mask despite being the offensive variant to the hood has terrible offensive stats. i would support it getting buffed maybye even more than the hallowed headgear.
The added melee speed given by the hallowed set makes it compete in damage with certain weapons, and it has a better set bonus. Give Chloropyte Mask +6% melee speed. Also give the 5 defense back, no reason to take it off really.
Same crit chance, inferior damage compared to hallowed, I WOULD suggest something cool for the set bonus like adding an effect to arrows, but this is unfortunately not the place, so I suggest change damage from helmet from 16% to 21%.
Again, I would suggest something cool, like the leaf crystal restoring mana (actually I think this one is fairly easy to do no?), but for a simpler change, increase headgear damage from 16% to 22%
I'm aware that all chloropyte headpieces are supposed to have +16% damage, but balance-wise, that doesn't make much sense.
Melee speed isn't as useful as raw damage in most situation, I think the defense nerf was to make it less apealing for mixed sets although it didn't really accomplish that.
You can talk all you want about the slight statistical differences between hallowed vs chlorophyte but at the end of the day the real difference is holy guard vs. leaf crystal.
It would make most sense to simply nerf holy guard and buff leaf crystal.
Squire Armor has +15% melee damage, I think that would be a good inclusion, maybe reduce defense a little to compensate. Also I think reducing breastplate hp/s by 1 and give the helmet 2hp/s would make it more of an upgrade.
Vallhala knight's plate is still quite strong even after a big nerf, and I don't think the devs want to buff life regen on anything anytime soon. It's be better to just buff the helmet a little to be more competitve with shinnobi, the shinnobi headpiece might be a little too strong as well.
Shroomite Headpieces: 20% buff to a specific weapon type
Hallowed Helmet: 23% buff to all ranged weapons
This armor is quite alright, but the headpieces are easily replaceable by the helmet, and the set bonus is mostly useless anyway. Change crit chance from 5% to 8% so it's the same as Hallowed.
The shroomite head pieces are the best ranged helmets in the game for offensive purposes. The reason is that tier damage boosts are multiple on seperatly from other damage bonuses. so if you have some ranged damage buffs these will almost always add more damage than the hallowed version.
1.5 * 1.15 > 1.5 + 0.15
Hallowed Armor nerf sounds pretty easy to accomplish.
One could make it so the Holy Protection 30 seconds cooldown starts after the buff goes away due to a hit only (so you can refresh it if it runs out naturally) alternatively, just let the buff be refreshed on every hit like titanium, not when it is obtained. Will make dodges rarer but also more consistent for player's observation, as currently you can occasionally dodge twice in a quick succession, and it's hard to tell when the next Holy Protection will appear.
To be entirely honest, effect like this deserves like 1 minute cooldown (you dodge 100% of dmg regardless of hit size, if it's something like Master Mode deathrays/explosions/charges, that jumps to 500-600 of potential damage denied up to 2 times in a minute currently), but that's more of a personal bias and also excessive measure when it could be started with a less invasive nerf mentioned above.
Chlorophyte? I always felt like people underestimate how much Leaf Crystal already does. 2 leaves per second with about 90 dmg is a perfect choice for exploration and some underprepared builds, the only issue is that it's hard for them to land on fast targets. Probably a slight curving (not full homing) towards the target could help if it does need the buff so badly.
Either way, the main trouble of that set is having to mine thousands of Chlorophyte ore to do everything needed nowadays. Maybe if one could have upgraded Chloro armor directly to Turtle/Shroomite/Spectre...
What I said completely outclasses the other was the Hallowed Armor set bonus (Holy Protection), which in hindsight might be a thing that should be nerfed rather than cause other buffs. Still it make the difference in defense almost negligible between other armors, and the Hallowed set itself doesn't lose in stats by much. That's what I wanted to address.
Personally, I like it when upgrades are not a 100% better thing than older versions. I like that, if a person is really good at dodging and only rarely gets hit, then they can just keep the Hallowed Armor around and skip a tier. That you can make defense increases from some later armors not particularly meaningful, so you only upgrade when the stat increases for other things are good enough.
hallowed armor's set bonus needs a nerf, although strangely the spectre mask despite being the offensive variant to the hood has terrible offensive stats. i would support it getting buffed maybye even more than the hallowed headgear.
Right, I'm still not sure if 10% damage and crit is the way to go, and buffing the damage orbs even further also sounds like a good idea. For now lets wait for Leinfors and see if he has anything to say.
Melee speed isn't as useful as raw damage in most situation, I think the defense nerf was to make it less apealing for mixed sets although it didn't really accomplish that.
You can talk all you want about the slight statistical differences between hallowed vs chlorophyte but at the end of the day the real difference is holy guard vs. leaf crystal.
It would make most sense to simply nerf holy guard and buff leaf crystal.
I suppose you're right. The thing is I'm not sure if that did go through easily, I repeat that leaf crystal is pretty good. Well, the other best alternative is to buff plate mail and greaves, and I say that because post-plantera chest pieces and leg pieces have much better stats anyway. But I would like to see a very strong leaf crystal too.
Vallhala knight's plate is still quite strong even after a big nerf, and I don't think the devs want to buff life regen on anything anytime soon. It's be better to just buff the helmet a little to be more competitve with shinnobi, the shinnobi headpiece might be a little too strong as well.
Yeah, the intent was not so much to buff it as much as to distribute it's weight, the knight plate could be reduced by 2 so that the helmet gets some of it too. The melee damage should definitively be added tho.
The shroomite head pieces are the best ranged helmets in the game for offensive purposes. The reason is that tier damage boosts are multiple on seperatly from other damage bonuses. so if you have some ranged damage buffs these will almost always add more damage than the hallowed version.
1.5 * 1.15 > 1.5 + 0.15
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