Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[sharkman0101]

I would really recommend you to play the events before sharing your opinion about them, though. You can't really know whether you can beat them if you don't bother playing them in the first place.

That's a fair point, but I don't need to know whether or not I need to beat them since the progression is balanced without them in mind; they are simply holiday events.

They're going to be quite difficult for only Plantera-tier gear since its an event that was designed with multiplayer in mind. A large, festive gathering with lots of enemies screams teamwork, especially with the voluminous amount of drops later on if you manage to get that far (which is easier with multiplayer) that can be spread among the players. If you find yourself unable to beat it alone with Plantera gear, that's perfectly fine; there are other options you can pursue to beat Golem and maybe challenge it later. Some of the drops from the Moon events are viable for some of the late-game content anyway, but some of the more underpowered items could use a bit of work - I cannot deny that. An event that becomes available doesn't necessarily have to be entirely feasible for single-player, but it's an option if you're up for the challenge of working with what you have. Same applies to something like Duke Fishron once hardmode starts or Skeletron in pre-hardmode.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify that I also agree that there should be a scaling helper for the higher difficulties, just to make it less of DPS race with the massively buffed health pools at higher difficulties. Perhaps 1.5x for Expert and 2.0x for Master?

 

[SsIras]

I forgot to clarify that I also agree that there should be a scaling helper for the higher difficulties, just to make it less of DPS race with the massively buffed health pools at higher difficulties. Perhaps 1.5x for Expert and 2.0x for Master?

It exists for Expert already, and it is x2

 

[sharkman0101]

It exists for Expert already, and it is x2

Alright, thank you for that clarification. The moons are so irrelevant to my Terraria experience that I never even knew that such a multiplier existed (which amplifies why I think that they are just a side event that is mostly aimed towards those who want a challenge or have a team to take it on with).

 

[Nakano15]

[Got up to Wave 18 on my first Master Mode try that wasn't even tryharded yet it took me 3 tries to beat empress with gear from Frost Moon while doing my best]

Anecdotes don't contribute much to a discussion.

Oh, what are you doing here then?

And funny, you managed to reach Wave 18 and is getting the behind kicked by the empress.

It's a horde battle vs a no-hit battle, I don't think it's fair to compare them straight on.

The gameplay perspective is very different on other game modes. I faced both the boss and the even on relativelly the Journey mode with Normal difficulty level, but with 257% spawn rate.

 

[2mg]

Alright, thank you for that clarification. The moons are so irrelevant to my Terraria experience that I never even knew that such a multiplier existed (which amplifies why I think that they are just a side event that is mostly aimed towards those who want a challenge or have a team to take it on with).

I think they're in the middle of nowhere.

Aside from just getting some nifty weapons ala Snowman Cannon, the completion of event itself seems irrelevant, except for collectors to get 1 day of Halloween/Christmas, and they're probably in Journey mode anyway. I mean, you can do a Wooden Sword vs Destroyer challenge, so that line of thinking is gray area.

You can challenge yourself by git gudding Fishron and both EoL versions already at post-Mech. In fact, these two have a constant appeal from the moment you can fight them, compared to both Moon events. The drops are nice, the fights are nice, summoning item farming is boring but whatever.

The whole "farm items to craft summon items to use only at night to race against a clock", well, OOA did that in a more fun manner, which is also a mostly optional event from the get-go, and it scales depending where in HM you are.

Both Moon events should have same scale factors like OOA has, or atleast a spike in difficulty post-Moon Lord - why? - because they once were the endgame.

 

[SsIras]

I think they're in the middle of nowhere.

Aside from just getting some nifty weapons ala Snowman Cannon, the completion of event itself seems irrelevant, except for collectors to get 1 day of Halloween/Christmas, and they're probably in Journey mode anyway. I mean, you can do a Wooden Sword vs Destroyer challenge, so that line of thinking is gray area.

You can challenge yourself by git gudding Fishron and both EoL versions already at post-Mech. In fact, these two have a constant appeal from the moment you can fight them, compared to both Moon events. The drops are nice, the fights are nice, summoning item farming is boring but whatever.

The whole "farm items to craft summon items to use only at night to race against a clock", well, OOA did that in a more fun manner, which is also a mostly optional event from the get-go, and it scales depending where in HM you are.

Both Moon events should have same scale factors like OOA has, or atleast a spike in difficulty post-Moon Lord - why? - because they once were the endgame.

I don't see how this suggestion is reasonable now. It might be a good suggestion with some points (Moon Events are easy to skip and should get something to make them fun), yes, but the counter points of this argument (at least in this thread) severely outweigh what we're working for here.
The concern with fun in the game is definitively a mutual feeling I can share with you, but your suggestion has nothing to do with balance. Think about it, Leinfors already has hands tied in many smaller situations, changing the way an entire event works seems completely out of reach for what this thread able to archive.

 

[JohannSimm]

If we want any sort of change implemented in regards to this issue, we should go through all the Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon drops and propose buffs to each one, to make them all worthwhile. Otherwise it will just remain the same. In the last several pages, I don't think there's been anything that can be turned into a concrete proposal. Since we all seem to agree that most of the drops aren't powerful enough, we should make that the standpoint and work to implement some suggestions.

Pumpkin Moon weapons
– Stake Launcher
– The Horseman's Blade
– Raven Staff
– Bat Scepter
– Candy Corn Rifle
– Jack 'O Lantern Launcher
– Dark Harvest

Frost Moon weapons
– Christmas Tree Sword
– Razorpine
– Elf Melter
– Chain Gun
– Blizzard Staff
– North Pole
– Snowman Cannon

We should go through each of these, identify the ones that have problems, identify their ideal power level in relation to Fishron / EoL, and propose according buffs. This is the best possibility at ensuring something is done on this issue within the scope of this thread. Large-scale changes to the events will just be disregarded.

 

[Travlordian01⚡️]

If we want any sort of change implemented in regards to this issue, we should go through all the Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon drops and propose buffs to each one, to make them all worthwhile. Otherwise it will just remain the same. In the last several pages, I don't think there's been anything that can be turned into a concrete proposal. Since we all seem to agree that most of the drops aren't powerful enough, we should just agree on that standpoint and work to make some suggestions to fix that.

Pumpkin Moon weapons
– Stake Launcher
– The Horseman's Blade
– Raven Staff
– Bat Scepter
– Candy Corn Rifle
– Jack 'O Lantern Launcher
– Dark Harvest

Frost Moon weapons
– Christmas Tree Sword
– Razorpine
– Elf Melter
– Chain Gun
– Blizzard Staff
– North Pole
– Snowman Cannon

We should go through each of these, identify the ones that have problems, identify their ideal power level in relation to the Empress of Light, and propose according buffs. This is probably the best and only possibility of effecting any positive change on this issue within the scope of this thread. Large-scale changes to the events will just be disregarded.

Razorpine needle, have nothing to say but is really good with that specter armor, so no problem there

 

[2mg]

I don't see how this suggestion is reasonable now. It might be a good suggestion with some points (Moon Events are easy to skip and should get something to make them fun), yes, but the counter points of this argument (at least in this thread) severely outweigh what we're working for here.
The concern with fun in the game is definitively a mutual feeling I can share with you, but your suggestion has nothing to do with balance. Think about it, Leinfors already has hands tied in many smaller situations, changing the way an entire event works seems completely out of reach for what this thread able to archive.

Of course, I understand, I started mentioning Moon events because I came with old Expert mode mindset and didn't really do well (as of writing this post, I'm done with Pumpkin Moon, with just a simple class swap, but Frost Moon seems as an entirely different beast).

It's just that now, with EoL, and Fishron from before, and Master mode inflation (pre-Cultist in my case):
- when should I do these events, since they're just old hardmode
- why should I do these events, to challenge myself for max waves, or just farm and forget
- are drops even worth the hassle

Balance-wise: in Master, maybe a flat points buff like Expert does (you can even reduce the buff the more the player is into late HM, entirely optional). Also, Frost Queen seems like she has too much HP or something, she isn't hard, just slow to kill.

If we want any sort of change implemented in regards to this issue, we should go through all the Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon drops and propose buffs to each one, to make them all worthwhile. Otherwise it will just remain the same. In the last several pages, I don't think there's been anything that can be turned into a concrete proposal. Since we all seem to agree that most of the drops aren't powerful enough, we should make that the standpoint and work to implement some suggestions.

We should go through each of these, identify the ones that have problems, identify their ideal power level in relation to Fishron / EoL, and propose according buffs. This is the best possibility at ensuring something is done on this issue within the scope of this thread. Large-scale changes to the events will just be disregarded.

That's the point, are these events supposed to be in same tier as Fishron and EoL? Because I've done both bosses except day EoL without any of Event gear.

OTOH I've done Pumpkin Moon with OOA mage armor and EoL's Stellar Tune, which can be obtained at night.

So it's kinda egg or chicken syndrome. And I'll remind you, Moons were the endgame at some point, but now with Master mode, I have no idea of their place or necessity.

PS: And I still don't know how to (pre-Cultist) do the entire Frost Moon.

QoL improvement idea: don't spend the Moon summoning item if you failed to end the event?

 

[JohannSimm]

Also, because I feel this hasn't been mentioned enough, the Ghastly Glaive needs serious buffs. Currently, a lot of people regard it as one of the worst weapons in the entire game. I've also heard that it may not even work properly.

The Wiki also claims that the Ghastly Glaive's velocity is 42, which is seven times higher than the second-highest velocity – the Dark Lance, with a velocity of 6. This value is repeated both on the spears page and the Ghastly Glaive's own page. There are two possibilities – either that the Wiki is wrong, and the value has been mistyped the same on two pages for years and years – or that the in-game velocity is actually 42. In the second case, I have to wonder whether the Ghastly Glaive's velocity might have been intended to be 4.2, and that some of the weapon's inconsistency might come from this incorrect velocity value.

Another area for improvement is its damage. It currently deals 45 damage, which is 25 damage lower than the Mushroom Spear – and even the Mushroom Spear isn't a terribly good weapon.

Working as Designed - Ghastly Glaive swings faster than it actually deals damage

This issue was probably present even before 1.4, but I only just realized that it was the reason why this weapon felt so awful to use. You can clearly see that the damage numbers are appearing at a slower rate than the weapon actually swings.

forums.terraria.org

It sounds as if some issues may already have been brought to Leinfors' attention, which is a good thing. But hopefully the other issues with the weapon won't go overlooked.

 

[a31337]

If we want any sort of change implemented in regards to this issue, we should go through all the Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon drops and propose buffs to each one, to make them all worthwhile. Otherwise it will just remain the same. In the last several pages, I don't think there's been anything that can be turned into a concrete proposal. Since we all seem to agree that most of the drops aren't powerful enough, we should make that the standpoint and work to implement some suggestions.

Pumpkin Moon weapons
– Stake Launcher
– The Horseman's Blade
– Raven Staff
– Bat Scepter
– Candy Corn Rifle
– Jack 'O Lantern Launcher
– Dark Harvest

Frost Moon weapons
– Christmas Tree Sword
– Razorpine
– Elf Melter
– Chain Gun
– Blizzard Staff
– North Pole
– Snowman Cannon

We should go through each of these, identify the ones that have problems, identify their ideal power level in relation to Fishron / EoL, and propose according buffs. This is the best possibility at ensuring something is done on this issue within the scope of this thread. Large-scale changes to the events will just be disregarded.

This has been tougher than expected. I have a rough spreadsheet that tries to determine the damage of each weapon, but there are many factors to consider and sometimes the DPS displayed might not be the one you obtain in-game (especially summons!). A one by one analysis may be needed in determining where each weapon fails.

I decided to analyze Fishron's drops too (written in blue). Apart from the Tempest staff, his weapons have significantly higher DPS than nearly all the drops you obtain from the event moons. This is yet another point in favor of buffing the Pumpkin/Frost moons' weapons, since many recommend Fishron gear to fight them.

 

[Cador_2004]

Hm... Regarding all the discussion on the True swords and Terra Blade stuff, would changing it so the Terra Blade must be crafted from the Ancient Manipulator, and scaled appropriately, set it to come in too late for what you want?

 

[J Bame]

Also, because I feel this hasn't been mentioned enough, the Ghastly Glaive needs serious buffs. Currently, a lot of people regard it as one of the worst weapons in the entire game. I've also heard that it may not even work properly.

The Wiki also claims that the Ghastly Glaive's velocity is 42, which is seven times higher than the second-highest velocity – the Dark Lance, with a velocity of 6. This value is repeated both on the spears page and the Ghastly Glaive's own page. There are two possibilities – either that the Wiki is wrong, and the value has been mistyped the same on two pages for years and years – or that the in-game velocity is actually 42. In the second case, I have to wonder whether the Ghastly Glaive's velocity might have been intended to be 4.2, and that some of the weapon's inconsistency might come from this incorrect velocity value.

Another area for improvement is its damage. It currently deals 45 damage, which is 25 damage lower than the Mushroom Spear – and even the Mushroom Spear isn't a terribly good weapon.

Working as Designed - Ghastly Glaive swings faster than it actually deals damage

This issue was probably present even before 1.4, but I only just realized that it was the reason why this weapon felt so awful to use. You can clearly see that the damage numbers are appearing at a slower rate than the weapon actually swings.

forums.terraria.org

It sounds as if some issues may already have been brought to Leinfors' attention, which is a good thing. But hopefully the other issues with the weapon won't go overlooked.

Ghastly Glaive is specifically coded to give enemies 30 iframes to itself (the average is 10) and not other projectiles. I have no idea why it was made like that, but it's the reason it's so awful in practice.

The 42 velocity is probably related to the weird swing animation it has.

 

[CrabBar]

This has been tougher than expected. I have a rough spreadsheet that tries to determine the damage of each weapon, but there are many factors to consider and sometimes the DPS displayed might not be the one you obtain in-game (especially summons!). A one by one analysis may be needed in determining where each weapon fails.

I decided to analyze Fishron's drops too (written in blue). Apart from the Tempest staff, his weapons have significantly higher DPS than nearly all the drops you obtain from the event moons. This is yet another point in favor of buffing the Pumpkin/Frost moons' weapons, since many recommend Fishron gear to fight them.

The spreadsheet is currently private (requires to send request to be seen), you should probably open it.
Fishron drops sure are quite powerful though, some of them compete with pillar weapons in terms of efficiency. Out of moons I can only remember Razorpine, Blizzard Staff, North Pole (sometimes) and Chain Gun being any close. Fishron Wings are a lot stronger than any event wings. The only class that will do moons rather commonly is Summoner since it means access to Spooky Armor and scrolls (+3 relative slots and ton of damage upgrade), while also not really requiring high waves to get both.

Would be interesting to see EoL drops being added to the comparison as well. From rough estimation they are sliiiightly better than what Fishron offers.

 

[SsIras]

The spreadsheet is currently private (requires to send request to be seen), you should probably open it.
Fishron drops sure are quite powerful though, some of them compete with pillar weapons in terms of efficiency. Out of moons I can only remember Razorpine, Blizzard Staff, North Pole (sometimes) and Chain Gun being any close. Fishron Wings are a lot stronger than any event wings. The only class that will do moons rather commonly is Summoner since it means access to Spooky Armor and scrolls (+3 relative slots and ton of damage upgrade), while also not really requiring high waves to get both.

Would be interesting to see EoL drops being added to the comparison as well. From rough estimation they are sliiiightly better than what Fishron offers.

To be fair, Fishron wings are very hard to obtain at 1/15 chance.

Let's get back to the weapons

Stake Launcher: There is one event you can use this at it's full potential, it's terrible against bosses and mini-bosses and should only be used to fight lined up enemies. I think giving it some attack speed should be good, it is the best repeater in the game after all.
The Horseman's Blade: It has quite a bit of DPS, but it operates like a true melee sword, which mostly means you're at risk all the times. It also much worse than other true melee weapons such as Keybrand and Starlight.
Raven Staff: It only annoys me that these have so little range, these birds are kinda dumb, aren't ravens meant to be smart?
Bat Scepter: It's a good weapon in every sense, the best thing you can get out of Pumpkin Moon by far.
Candy Corn Rifle: Dunno, it's not really powerful for bossing. I think a slight adjustment in damage should be enough.
Jack 'O Lantern Launcher: Stynger but with less range and bounce, meaning it's only good against land targets. The problem is that it is not ONLY good against land targets, it can ONLY be used against land targets, and if you're having trouble with these, Stake Launcher is much, much better.
Dark Harvest: It's quite good.
Christmas Tree Sword: Without a doubt, the worst weapon you can get from both moons, it is outclassed by a Terra Blade in damage, range and land control (CTS has better aerial control), massively outclassed by North Pole in every category and the best thing you can use it for is to fight groups of flying enemies that you can't hit with your Terra Blade (it also looks really cool tho). CTS needs quite a damage boost to justify its place as a Frost Moon drop.
Razorpine: Very good, maybe even too good since it competes with Blizzard Staff in DPS but has much lower mana cost.
Elf Melter: Pretty decent, maybe a bit more of damage.
Chain Gun: Yeah, I think everyone can agree that if it shoots fast, it's good enough. Chain Gun is an example of why you should try to fight Frost Moon.
Blizzard Staff, North Pole and Snowman Cannon : All really good weapons, but somewhat frustrating to obtain.

 

[draeken]

Imo the pumpkin moon is almost fine. You can reach late waves with plantera/dungeon gear and get drops. It has good stuff like the broom and spooky armor. . Also you don't need traps, at least on expert. So you can beat it on progression, with extra but not excessive preparation, and it gives a couple of items that can 1- allow you to skip saucer, 2- be your main summoner armor until postmoonlord. Also bat scepter and dark harvest are good, although they have though competitors in spectre, razorblade and kaleidoscope. Still, it is very skippable for non-summoners, so a buff to one or two of the weaker weapons would help.

Pregolem frostmoon on expert without traps is thougher. Santa killed me often, and I did not manage to progress much. After golem, it is generally better to go lunar. Cultist is easier than fishron, and lunar gear outclasses everything. Still, if cultist gets buffed, frostmoon would be worth bothering with. Razorpine might be the best prelunar reliable dps weapon, chaingun has a niche vs tsunami in that it can shoot homing bullets, and snowman is the best ranged damage homing. And homing weapons are nice vs cultist and lunar event itself.

 

[SsIras]

I will take one thing back, North Pole is far from comparable with the other drops from Ice Queen. It's one of the few weapons affected by wind, and generally not in a good way, if there is no wind it is much easier to use if effectively, if there is wind, the projectiles scatter making it harder to hit an enemy with multiple projectiles. In theory, you could shoots the spear straight upwards and make it cause a TON of damage when the snowflakes fall (just make sure there is something below or above you so the projectiles can hit it), that's the best way to use it on one target, which is a strategy completely destroyed by WIND. I'm starting to hate wind... it also makes it significantly worse against multiple targets at close range (taking the melee out of melee here...)
I do think it can be good, but these issues make it an inaccurate weapon. I think the lead projectile should do 100% of base damage and be faster to it is less inaccurate, but still, it's a decent weapon.

 

[J Bame]

I will take one thing back, North Pole is far from comparable with the other drops from Ice Queen. It's one of the few weapons affected by wind, and generally not in a good way, if there is no wind it is much easier to use if effectively, if there is wind, the projectiles scatter making it harder to hit an enemy with multiple projectiles. In theory, you could shoots the spear straight upwards and make it cause a TON of damage when the snowflakes fall (just make sure there is something below or above you so the projectiles can hit it), that's the best way to use it on one target, which is a strategy completely destroyed by WIND. I'm starting to hate wind... it also makes it significantly worse against multiple targets at close range (taking the melee out of melee here...)
I do think it can be good, but these issues make it an inaccurate weapon. I think the lead projectile should do 100% of base damage and be faster to it is less inaccurate, but still, it's a decent weapon.

Why exactly does Wind, a hidden and uncontrollable mechanic, get to affect one weapon's performance again?

 

[VDragunov]

Something that really bugs me (and yeah sadly, I only noticed just now) is that the finch minions are the only ones that stay with you after death. How come the rest of the minion buffs don't get this treatment? It'd make death a lot less punishing for summoners, specially in the middle of events, where it becomes a deathfest because your summons can't catch up with the sheer speed of all the event mobs trying to absolutely murderize you in the later waves of the moon events.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Stake Launcher: There is one event you can use this at it's full potential, it's terrible against bosses and mini-bosses and should only be used to fight lined up enemies. I think giving it some attack speed should be good, it is the best repeater in the game after all.

This weapon is basicly just a hallowed repeater with jester's arrows after the hallowed repeater got buffed.

Why exactly does Wind, a hidden and uncontrollable mechanic, get to affect one weapon's performance again?

Wind isn't hidden! A rare accesory gained from a completely unrelated quest, that otherwise provides no useful function to anything else tells you the speed of the wind, in this one situation where it actually effects something.