Portfolio/Multi-Topic Pre-hardmode Re-balance Suggestion

[Vaikyia]

IMPORTANT:
Please read my responses to others before you vote or respond. ​

Hello, this is just a suggestion thread with some re-balance and addition ideas to enhance pre-hardmode.
This will be shown as a change-log to make the suggestion simple, and will also include some explanation of the reasoning behind the suggested changes.

And keep in mind these aren't all of my ideas for pre-hardmode changes, just some of them.

Suggested Pre-hardmode Changes:

Cactus Armor nerfed down to Wooden Tier (with maybe with a special setbonus addition to both Cactus and Wooden)
Changes to Metal Armors up to Platinum, each now costing less bars than the previous tier
Major Nerfs to default Metal Armors up to Platinum: -50% defense
Addition of Gem Armors upgrades for metal armors up to Platinum, all on par with each other defense-wise (which is 15) but with different set bonuses that change up one's playstyle
Additions to early Summoner and Throwing classes
Shadow/Crimson armor changed: 25 total defense, Crimson armor set bonus nerfed
Bee, Jungle, Meteor, Fossil, and Necro armors changed: -3 defense but with new special armor-based movement enhancements added to set bonus
Molten armor buffed: 30 total defense
Molotov Cocktail buff

EoC buffed, around 30% stronger
BoC/EoW buffed, around 25% stronger and 20% faster
All post BoC/EoW pre-hardmode bosses buffed, around 20% stronger
Buffs do not carry over to Expert Mode
BoC/EoW only drop Demonite/Crimtane and Shadow Scales/Tissue Sample when they are defeated/final segment is killed​

Now for the explanations.

The Cactus armor change: Cactus armor is already direct upgrade to wooden, and more practical than copper/tin despite being the easiest armor to obtain. Nuff' said.

Metal armor cost change: Linked with the addition of Gem Armor upgrades for the metal armors up to platinum to make them equally easy to craft.

Default metal armor nerf: To make the gem armor upgrades more of a necessity for usefulness, and to remove the 4 metal armor tiers.

Gem armor upgrades for metal armors up to Platinum: 4 different armor tiers in the span of 2 necessary bosses already didn't work out well for Terraria in the first place. These upgrades will make them based more on how you will fight those bosses instead of being generic defense upgrades that weren't even worth getting for the most part. I would also suggest doing something like this for the Hardmode metal armors up to Titanium.

The rest of the armor changes: To fit with the boss buffs, and to provide a higher movement based skill cap for those using their far and medium ranged stats.

EoC and BoC/EoW buffs: To fit with the gem armor upgrades and to make them less of total pushovers in Normal mode.

Post EoC/EoW boss buffs: To fit with the armor buffs and tier changes.

And that's pretty much it, made this a full on suggestion since it's been in my head for awhile now.
I'd very much appreciate feedback and constructive criticism, thank you.

 

[WingedOracle]

I'm sorry, but there needs to be changes. There also needs to be a balance for the summoner class in pre-hardmode, since of the lack of gear for that class during that stage of the game.

 

[Vaikyia]

I'm sorry, but there needs to be changes. There also needs to be a balance for the summoner class in pre-hardmode, since of the lack of gear for that class during that stage of the game.

I totally agree, keep in mind these is just the stuff I thought of at the time, and not everything I believe of what should be changed.

However, I will add a note of that. Kinda slipped my mind since I was mostly just thinking of current gear changes and upgrades.

 

[Scarlet Hunter]

Boss locks are a bit... iffy. What you are suggesting makes the Reaver Shark completely useless. And some of that armor you are nerfing/buffing doesn't really need it. Molten Armor is already plenty tanky enough.

 

[Vaikyia]

Boss locks are a bit... iffy. What you are suggesting makes the Reaver Shark completely useless. And some of that armor you are nerfing/buffing doesn't really need it. Molten Armor is already plenty tanky enough.

It doesn't make it totally useless, and the Reaver Shark was already silly in the first place for how easy it was to get. Beating Skeletron just to get hellstone is a fair trade for getting something like that super early.

https://terraria.wiki.gg/Bee_armor 13 to 7 defense? while having buffed the bosses.

Now essentially you could either a) farm crates until hardmode b) Killing Skeletron at least to mine Hellstone then you can mine Cobalt/Palladium, Mythril/Orichalcum, Adamantite/Titanium to kill bosses or c) Go straight for hardmode and get Spider gear and then get Hallowed armor if you're another class. And essentially if it's Expert you'd have quite the time killing these buffed bosses, not only that WoF will be 20% faster.

I feel it's quite off how EoC drops Demonite/Crimtane ore, like you'll most likely get scales regardless from the segments, you don't even have to kill the boss. Shouldn't scales drop from the Treasure Bag (or just dropped in Normal after defeated).

Summoners sentries all-game aren't worth farming for, and that's the only other damage for Summoners, and to maximize dps you have to use another weapon, and it's generally ranged.

Keep in mind the faster movement speed, and the fact you can gain 20+ defense with a bit of luck by accessory reforging. Also Summoner already depends enough on dodging so this will only make it easier to avoid getting damaged in the first place.

And with that note about the boss buffs, I will tune them down a notch.
About the EoW, I do agree with that as well.
About the Summoner sentries I already mentioned to add more for summoner in general.


And another note, removed the lock on fighting EoW/BoC after EoW.

 

[ppowersteef]

My only support is for the cactus armor. I'm not a fan for the rest of them.

Less defence and stronger bosses? It's not worth the movement bonus. Especially for new players. Armor upgrades may sound generic. But it's something to look forward for when mining for the armor tier.
Functional Set bonusses are also more fitting for mid-mid than early game.

I'd prefer the choices and freedom you have in pre-hardmode as well. The reaver shark is broken. But it's also a matter of rng/knowledge. And if it's worth it to skip the best part of the game. It's up to you as you've that freedom.

So, mostly for the sake of new players to enjoy the new game and bosses. I'd rather prefer to keep the armors mostly as is. With exception of the cactus armor then.

 

[Scarlet Hunter]

The reaver shark is broken. But it's also a matter of rng/knowledge. And if it's worth it to skip the best part of the game. It's up to you as you've that freedom.

The Reaver Shark is helpful for certain playthroughs, like Expert Summoner-only, where you pretty much need an Imp to fight the Eater of Worlds.
I normally don't get it, anyway.

 

[Vaikyia]

My only support is for the cactus armor. I'm not a fan for the rest of them.

Less defence and stronger bosses? It's not worth the movement bonus. Especially for new players. Armor upgrades may sound generic. But it's something to look forward for when mining for the armor tier.
Functional Set bonusses are also more fitting for mid-mid than early game.

I'd prefer the choices and freedom you have in pre-hardmode as well. The reaver shark is broken. But it's also a matter of rng/knowledge. And if it's worth it to skip the best part of the game. It's up to you as you've that freedom.

So, mostly for the sake of new players to enjoy the new game and bosses. I'd rather prefer to keep the armors mostly as is. With exception of the cactus armor then.

It's only 5 less defense, those armors that were changed with that in mind are not tanking armors at all. You already had to have a decent amount of knowledge of dodging in the first place if you were going with those all the way to hardmode. If you could use them before, you could use them better now.

And the set bonuses for those upgraded metal armors wont be class playstyle related. They will mostly have different movement/stat quirks that change the way you fight something. For example, your damage being buffed while mid-air and gaining a jump boost and extra speed; but your damage is lowered on ground. It would change how one would fight enemies and bosses in a fun manner.

With the hellstone lock, it's just hellstone. Again, to get that kind of pickaxe early it would only balance it more to have a form of downside to it. And fighting bosses like EoC or Queen Bee with molten armor? That wouldn't even be much of a challenge for even the earliest of players.

The Reaver Shark is helpful for certain playthroughs, like Expert Summoner-only, where you pretty much need an Imp to fight the Eater of Worlds.
I normally don't get it, anyway.

I mentioned earlier I added a note to add things to summoner, so most likely that wouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

[Scarecrow]

I don't like the idea of gating hellstone until you beat skeletron. Because it implies that going to an area that's supposed to be tougher than the dungeon to mine a ore that generates lava when broken and hurts you to stand on without proper equipment is easier than beating skeletron and getting hellstone equipment is a crutch for killing skeletron.

while technically hellstone gear would make skeletron a joke boss, it is undeniably harder to face demons and fire imps constantly in hell without any gear from the dungeon, while trying to get enough hellstone for equipment, than it is to kill skeletron. It is still entirely possible, and that's an aspect of this game that makes it fun.
PHM is honestly one of the funnest parts of this game because it's not riddled with gating like hardmode. a good sandbox game shouldn't outright force you to do things in a specific order. I'm tired of all the gating that has occurred in this game. ESPECIALLY in hardmode.
Just think of the things you are technically allowed to do at the beginning of the game compared to the amount of things you are technically allowed to do at the beginning of hardmode.
I think it would be detrimental to add even more unnecessary gating to this game. If anything, I think some gating should be taken out of the game.

 

[Vaikyia]

I don't like the idea of gating hellstone until you beat skeletron. Because it implies that going to an area that's supposed to be tougher than the dungeon to mine a ore that generates lava when broken and hurts you to stand on without proper equipment is easier than beating skeletron and getting hellstone equipment is a crutch for killing skeletron.

while technically hellstone gear would make skeletron a joke boss, it is undeniably harder to face demons and fire imps constantly in hell without any gear from the dungeon, while trying to get enough hellstone for equipment, than it is to kill skeletron. It is still entirely possible, and that's an aspect of this game that makes it fun.
PHM is honestly one of the funnest parts of this game because it's not riddled with gating like hardmode. a good sandbox game shouldn't outright force you to do things in a specific order. I'm tired of all the gating that has occurred in this game. ESPECIALLY in hardmode.
Just think of the things you are technically allowed to do at the beginning of the game compared to the amount of things you are technically allowed to do at the beginning of hardmode.
I think it would be detrimental to add even more unnecessary gating to this game. If anything, I think some gating should be taken out of the game.

Skeletron and Hellstone are totally optional in-game though. If a person wants to mine hellstone they probably want better gear, if a person wants to beat Skeletron they probably want better gear too. People can with ease find the old man, and would want to beat him since it's a challenge that's right in front of you. You would most likely want the gear from the dungeon to even get to hell to mine hellstone so this should be no issue.

To keep the freedom of getting to hardmode and mining the hardmode ores without beating any boss other than the WoF, you have to have some form of little downside to balance that ability out. And it's a rather small downside compared to the huge upside the Reaver Shark brings.

 

[FlyKip]

Love it all, except the necro nerf. Necro always seemed a bit weak to me...

 

[Vaikyia]

Love it all, except the necro nerf. Necro always seemed a bit weak to me...

It's technically a buff since it wasn't really a defense-based armor anyways. You can be a speedy boy now!

 

[fireman7100]

I agree with most of the suggestions said (especially the throwing class/summoner class additions) but I'm not a fan of the metal armor nerf and the bosses buff. I feel that 75% less defense is way too much, perhaps you could lower the number? (maybe 50%?). The bosses could be difficult for newer players already, so buffing them will just make new players have a harder time fighting them. Other than that, the suggestions are pretty good!

 

[Vaikyia]

I agree with most of the suggestions said (especially the throwing class/summoner class additions) but I'm not a fan of the metal armor nerf and the bosses buff. I feel that 75% less defense is way too much, perhaps you could lower the number? (maybe 50%?). The bosses could be difficult for newer players already, so buffing them will just make new players have a harder time fighting them. Other than that, the suggestions are pretty good!

They're that nerfed because they will be mostly materials for the gem upgrades to them. And just getting rid of the metal armors and going straight for making the gem armor upgrades would be a bit more odd since tools can already be made from the bars alone.

However I will tone it down to 50% anyways since they could be used for surviving longer underground to get the materials for the gem upgraded versions.

The boss buffs are to compensate for the change of 4 metal tiers to 1 and the armor buffs, and to provide a bit of a more challenging experience to make the gap between Normal and Expert mode bosses a bit smaller to ease into it better.

Also a thing to note is that those boss buffs do not cross over to Expert mode.

 

[four plus four]

Bee, Jungle, Meteor, Fossil, and Necro armors changed: -5 defense but 20% increased movement speed added to set bonus
Molten armor buffed: 30 total defense

These armor changes are terrible. I'm iffy on the other changes you propose, but these armor changes are downright terrible and just bad game design. On the defense front, the highest armor from the ones you decreased is jungle with 17, which becomes twelve, and the lowest is bee/fossil armor with 13, which becomes 8. 1 less defense then ninja armor, yet gotten from either a far more difficult boss then the slime or from blocks you can't get unless you have a better pickaxe then the slime expects you to have. Speaking of, ninja armor kind s with the metal armors being nerfed defensively, just saying. With bosses being stronger this is especially terrible, especially for new players. If you've played the game a while it doesn't seem so bad in theorem, but new players are typically bad. This change requires dodging, which pretty much requires knowledge of bosses to do well and more focus on the game then you might otherwise. It is straight up bad game design for new players. Molten armor being buffed gives it more defense then cobalt/palladium, and the same amount as orichalcum. It already has 6 more defense then the second highest armor in vanilla, and now it has 11 more... Except you changed that to 25 meaning 5 more, which means the second highest armor in PHM is now double the third highest, unless the gem armors are real nice defensively. The defense changes are just... No.

And the movement speed buff is not too useful, especially for veterans. Fun fact about movement speed - it does not increase max movement speed. If your max speed is 25, +60% movement speed would mean nothing, let alone +20%. Someone who knows the game would be more likely to just hook, making the armor changes complete nerfs for them. For new players, it might be a bit useful? I don't know how much 20% effects things, but I assume they might stop at times and might not have knowledge of quick ways to move, although boss buffs like this might force em' to... But then the movement speed buffs are pretty much obsolete.

The more I'm typing out this post the more problems I'm having with these balance proposals, namely bosses... I would never be able to beat the queen in pre-hardmode unless I bring a bunch of potions, including fishing ones, I am pretty sure. I do not like fishing.

 

[Vaikyia]

These armor changes are terrible. I'm iffy on the other changes you propose, but these armor changes are downright terrible and just bad game design. On the defense front, the highest armor from the ones you decreased is jungle with 17, which becomes twelve, and the lowest is bee/fossil armor with 13, which becomes 8. 1 less defense then ninja armor, yet gotten from either a far more difficult boss then the slime or from blocks you can't get unless you have a better pickaxe then the slime expects you to have. Speaking of, ninja armor kind s with the metal armors being nerfed defensively, just saying. With bosses being stronger this is especially terrible, especially for new players. If you've played the game a while it doesn't seem so bad in theorem, but new players are typically bad. This change requires dodging, which pretty much requires knowledge of bosses to do well and more focus on the game then you might otherwise. It is straight up bad game design for new players. Molten armor being buffed gives it more defense then cobalt/palladium, and the same amount as orichalcum. It already has 6 more defense then the second highest armor in vanilla, and now it has 11 more... Except you changed that to 25 meaning 5 more, which means the second highest armor in PHM is now double the third highest, unless the gem armors are real nice defensively. The defense changes are just... No.

And the movement speed buff is not too useful, especially for veterans. Fun fact about movement speed - it does not increase max movement speed. If your max speed is 25, +60% movement speed would mean nothing, let alone +20%. Someone who knows the game would be more likely to just hook, making the armor changes complete nerfs for them. For new players, it might be a bit useful? I don't know how much 20% effects things, but I assume they might stop at times and might not have knowledge of quick ways to move, although boss buffs like this might force em' to... But then the movement speed buffs are pretty much obsolete.

The more I'm typing out this post the more problems I'm having with these balance proposals, namely bosses... I would never be able to beat the queen in pre-hardmode unless I bring a bunch of potions, including fishing ones, I am pretty sure. I do not like fishing.

You see here's the thing, those armors that got defense nerfed are not and never have been about crutching on defense. You wouldn't go and use Ninja armor over Fossil because a few defense. You use a Terraria armor mostly for it's stat increases to what kind of weapons you use, not on how much defense it gives. If everybody had that logic we'd all be only using melee armors.

For the new players, making them learn to use more skill-based movement to succeed in a game is not bad game design. Balancing a game around players who don't take more than 50% of what they are given would just make Terraria extremely dumbed-down and repetitive. But I have changed it a little thinking about the whole movement speed thing.

About the Molten armor buff, the difference in stats from from alternate ores is already dumb but this is only a Pre-hardmode balance thread. And melee-wise Molten was already 1 defense away from being like Cobalt, with this buff it's still weaker than Palladium. You lied about that, unless you were talking about the magic and ranged helmets for them which are irrelevant since Molten is a melee set.

And again, the boss buffs do not carry over to Expert mode and the reason why they are buffed is to shorten the gap between normal and expert mode. Don't forget the Gem-enhanced metal armor upgrades, depending on how you use them they will aid you quite a bit.

 

[Scarlet Hunter]

The thing is, Expert Mode exists for this purpose, and the gap between Normal Mode and Expert Mode exists because the devs understand that some people like to play more casually. Making Normal Mode more difficult will just lead to people complaining that Expert Mode already exists and that if they wanted that challenge they would take it.

 

[Skaro]

Wtf is this? You want to nerf everything and at the same time buff all the bosses? That would up the balance.

 

[Vaikyia]

The thing is, Expert Mode exists for this purpose, and the gap between Normal Mode and Expert Mode exists because the devs understand that some people like to play more casually. Making Normal Mode more difficult will just lead to people complaining that Expert Mode already exists and that if they wanted that challenge they would take it.

I think I might have worded "shortening the gap" incorrectly, it's a little more complex than that. This is only pre-hardmode, teaching players to use skill-based movement will make them better, and will make Normal mode even more casual.

These changes will also destroy the 4 metal tiers, bonding them into one. And if you utilize that tier the bosses shouldn't be much if any different. Normal bosses are already a breeze to dodge with a simple arena, buffing them a little shouldn't hurt even the most casual of players.

Then if those people want more of a challenge, Expert mode should be even more comfortable to play and looked less upon as a nuisance after they have learned to utilize these changes.

Wtf is this? You want to nerf everything and at the same time buff all the bosses? That would up the balance.

Please re-read the thread and my responses to others, it should clear up the reasoning behind a lot of nerfs and buffs.

 

[four plus four]

You see here's the thing, those armors that got defense nerfed are not and never have been about crutching on defense. You wouldn't go and use Ninja armor over Fossil because a few defense. You use a Terraria armor mostly for it's stat increases to what kind of weapons you use, not on how much defense it gives. If everybody had that logic we'd all be only using melee armors.

They may not have been about saving you defensively, but they've also never been about moving fast... Except necro in 1.06 and below, which was removed to turn it into a ranged armor. Just because something isn't about defense doesn't mean it shouldn't have decent defense. Sure, the stat increase on fossil is higher, but why in the world would a cloth-like ninja armor have less defense then an armor made of materials from the ground that takes more effort to get?

Also new players probably would only use melee armors because of it having the most defense. I at least know I would when I was new.

For the new players, making them learn to use more skill-based movement to succeed in a game is not bad game design. Balancing a game around players who don't take more than 50% of what they are given would just make Terraria extremely dumbed-down and repetitive. But I have changed it a little thinking about the whole movement speed thing.

I appreciate the change to the movement speed thing, now the defense problem isn't as big a deal and the movement speed is now vague, making it open to interpretation. Not sure how to respond to the rest of this quote, because I'm a dumb boy. I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't really agree.

About the Molten armor buff, the difference in stats from from alternate ores is already dumb but this is only a Pre-hardmode balance thread. And melee-wise Molten was already 1 defense away from being like Cobalt, with this buff it's still weaker than Palladium. You lied about that, unless you were talking about the magic and ranged helmets for them which are irrelevant since Molten is a melee set.

Yeah, I can't read. Both palladium and orichalcum have higher defense then 30, I misread their values on the wiki. To be fair, it was 10 PM at the time for me.

And again, the boss buffs do not carry over to Expert mode and the reason why they are buffed is to shorten the gap between normal and expert mode. Don't forget the Gem-enhanced metal armor upgrades, depending on how you use them they will aid you quite a bit.

I still can't read, didn't notice about how it doesn't effect expert mod. Still, these armor changes do effect expert mode, and less defense = not good in a mode where things hit harder then in normal mode. You might be able to dodge easier, but you're still going to get hit at times, and hit for more then you would with the defense values in the game right now.

Also it is really easy to just kill some segments of the worm or kill some creepers of the brain and get the now buffed defensively shadow/crimson armor, so the gem armors would be useless to most people able to go through expert mode. New players might struggle with said bosses in normal mode, but I really do not see the use of making the gem armors unless you are new if all these changes were made.