Weapons & Equip Support Summoner subclass (inspired by Orchamut's thread on the subject)

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

This post is not finished
As mentioned in the title, @Orchamut made a thread on this subject, and this ramble will be my ideas for a potential subclass(specific item stats will be put on the ramble My item ideas expanded on)
Part 1: Why?
Well, there's simply not enough strategic possibility in the Summoner class. While you can mix and match minions, barely any people do, as there isn't much incentive to do so. A support subclass, and another thing I will discuss at the end of this ramble, could bring this strategy to summoning; you could sacrifice DPS for healing, or status effects, or something else.
Part 2: How could we make them balanced?
The problem is, support summons would be incredibly easy to just throw on for everyone but summoners. This section will go through a few ways to balance I've seen and a few of my own.
Option 1: Support summons have their own slots
This idea could stop non-summoners from exploiting these summons, but also ruins the idea of strategically using your minion slots.
Option 2: Support summons have stronger effects but cost more slots
This also could help with piggy-backing, but would also make support summons incredibly limiting, as you would have to sacrifice a large chunk of slots to even use the summoms.
Option 3: They scale with minion slots
This would mean summoners are the only ones to benefit much from supports, but would make them awful in Pre-Hardmode due to lack of potential minion slots.
Option 4: There is a threshold for summoning them
This would mean that you need a certain amount of slots to use them, but they still only cost 1 slot. This is the most flexible option as the threshold could be different for each support, scaling them for their tier. This, in my opinion, would be the best option.
Part 3: Extreme Early-Game
For this part of the game, I have two ideas for summons; the Heart Construct and the Shield Construct. The Heart Construct would be crafted from a heart crystal and either of the 4th-tier ore bars and heal the player and nearby team-mates every 60 seconds. The Shield Construct would absorb a certain amount of damage before going on cooldown. It would be crafted from wooden armour, glass and either of the 4th-tier ore bars.
Part 4: Late Pre-Hardmode
The support summons for this stage of the game would consist of the Necro Heart Construct, the Cobalt Shield Construct, and the Hive. The Cobalt Shield Construct would be crafted from Ancient Cobalt or Jungle Armour and the Cobalt Shield. It would act as an upgrade to the Shield Construct. The Necro Heart Construct would be crafted from bones, spikes and the Heart Construct. It would heal more and periodically crate a defensive aura. The Hive would be a support weapon crafted from hive blocks and honeycombs, and would send out both worker and fighter bees periodically. Fighter bees would function like normal friendly bees, but worker bees would home in on the nearest ally or you 50% of the time (100% of the time in singleplayer) and would heal 3 HP and apply the Honey buff for 5 seconds.
Part 5: Early Hardmode
For this stage of progression, here are my ideas. There would be the Heart of Duality, crafted with a Necro Heart Construct, pixie dust, a Light Shard, and a Dark Shard. It would give periodical regen buffs on top of healing and defense. Regen and defense from the HoD are mutually exclusive. There would be an Ichor Heart, which applies Ichor to enemies, crafted from the Crimson Heart light pet and ichor, and the Cursed Orb, the Corrupt equivalent. There would also be the Adamantine/Titanium Shield Construct, an upgrade to the Cobalt Shield Construct which is crafted from the CSC and Adamantine/Titanium armour.

 

[TheGuideIsEvil]

This post is not finished
As mentioned in the title, @Orchamut made a thread on this subject, and this ramble will be my ideas for a potential subclass(specific item stats will be put on the ramble My item ideas expanded on)
Part 1: Why?
Well, there's simply not enough strategic possibility in the Summoner class. While you can mix and match minions, barely any people do, as there isn't much incentive to do so. A support subclass, and another thing I will discuss at the end of this ramble, could bring this strategy to summoning; you could sacrifice DPS for healing, or status effects, or something else.
Part 2: Extreme Early-Game
For this part of the game, I have two ideas for summons; the Heart Construct and the Shield Construct. The Heart Construct would be crafted from a heart crystal and either of the 4th-tier ore bars and heal the player and nearby team-mates every 60 seconds. The Shield Construct would absorb a certain amount of damage before going on cooldown. It would be crafted from wooden armour, glass and either of the 4th-tier ore bars.
Part 3: Late Pre-Hardmode
The support summons for this stage of the game would consist of the Necro Heart Construct, the Cobalt Shield Construct, and the Hive. The Cobalt Shield Construct would be crafted from Ancient Cobalt or Jungle Armour and the Cobalt Shield. It would act as an upgrade to the Shield Construct. The Necro Heart Construct would be crafted from bones, spikes and the Heart Construct. It would heal more and periodically crate a defensive aura. The Hive would be a support weapon crafted from hive blocks and honeycombs, and would send out both worker and fighter bees periodically. Fighter bees would function like normal friendly bees, but worker bees would home in on the nearest ally or you 50% of the time (100% of the time in singleplayer) and would heal 3 HP and apply the Honey buff for 5 seconds.

The fundamental problem with support summons as a concept is that this would probably help non summoners a bit too much. Since they just would need one slot and summon this stuff, and get an unfair advantage without sacrificing a a lot for damage; summoners need their minion slots as their bread and butter for combat. @Big Sammich reminded me of this under some different post, forgot which, but it’s a fair point.

 

[Salty_]

I think the simplest way to summarize why support summons are difficult to make work is that they're accessories that take up minion slots. Very easy to fit in to your build... if you're not a summoner who relies on said minion slots for damage.

Orchamut's idea was to make support minion power scale with minion slots, but given how limited minion slots are in pre-hardmode this doesn't seem like a feasible way to balance any pre-hardmode support summons.

The only way to really balance support minions out would be to put them in their own category like sentries, or indeed make them sentries, but this of course fails to deliver on the idea of strategically allocating your minion slots.

 

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

The fundamental problem with support summons as a concept is that this would probably help non summoners a bit too much. Since they just would need one slot and summon this stuff, and get an unfair advantage without sacrificing a a lot for damage; summoners need their minion slots as their bread and butter for combat.

True...
I think if they cost more minion slots but had stronger buffs it would be more difficult for non-summoners to profit, but summoners would still get balanced buffs

 

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

I'm going to add a section that'll spitball ideas for how to make these balanced

 

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

Here's an idea; each support summon has a certain minion slot threshold you need to summon it, but they still cost 1 slot. The threshold could be different for each tier of progression

 

[J Bame]

Well, there's simply not enough strategic possibility in the Summoner class.

Man

Summoner can Hybridize with weapons from other classes, there is potential to make more whip-focused armors and accessories (Obsidian Armor is merely the start), Sentries exist in a barebones state, Whips have no limits for possible tag effects, and we still hear things like this.

if summoner doesnt have enough diversity it's because Summoner barely has enough weapons for a full playthrough (there are still whips missing at key parts of progression and we are just hoping 1.4.5 fills in the gaps).

The people who think that Summoner doesnr have depth, or that the current state of minions and whips make a boring class, would have a heart attack when they realize Ranger only has 2 viable ammo types in the whole game. Or that half of Melee consists of mediocre true melee with no gimmick. Or that Mana is such a non-mechanic that it could be removed with few balance implications for the class... no class is perfect in this regard

but "necessities" aside Support Minions are just not worth the trouble. It's not that no-one could possibly come up with a way to make them work, it's the fact that the last thing summoner needs is yet another weapon type or mechanic, that may come out in a barebones state and will need several 1.4.X balance updates to be in a good place.

 

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

Man

Summoner can Hybridize with weapons from other classes, there is potential to make more whip-focused armors and accessories (Obsidian Armor is merely the start), Sentries exist in a barebones state, Whips have no limits for possible tag effects, and we still hear things like this.

if summoner doesnt have enough diversity it's because Summoner barely has enough weapons for a full playthrough (there are still whips missing at key parts of progression and we are just hoping 1.4.5 fills in the gaps).

The people who think that Summoner doesnr have depth, or that the current state of minions and whips make a boring class, would have a heart attack when they realize Ranger only has 2 viable ammo types in the whole game. Or that half of Melee consists of mediocre true melee with no gimmick. Or that Mana is such a non-mechanic that it could be removed with few balance implications for the class... no class is perfect in this regard

but "necessities" aside Support Minions are just not worth the trouble. It's not that no-one could possibly come up with a way to make them work, it's the fact that the last thing summoner needs is yet another weapon type or mechanic, that may come out in a barebones state and will need several 1.4.X balance updates to be in a good place.

True... But it would still be pretty neat. I know all the classes have issues, but support minions would just be kinda cool, necessities aside

 

[Terrabit]

This post is not finished
As mentioned in the title, @Orchamut made a thread on this subject, and this ramble will be my ideas for a potential subclass(specific item stats will be put on the ramble My item ideas expanded on)
Part 1: Why?
Well, there's simply not enough strategic possibility in the Summoner class. While you can mix and match minions, barely any people do, as there isn't much incentive to do so. A support subclass, and another thing I will discuss at the end of this ramble, could bring this strategy to summoning; you could sacrifice DPS for healing, or status effects, or something else.
Part 2: How could we make them balanced?
The problem is, support summons would be incredibly easy to just throw on for everyone but summoners. This section will go through a few ways to balance I've seen and a few of my own.
Option 1: Support summons have their own slots
This idea could stop non-summoners from exploiting these summons, but also ruins the idea of strategically using your minion slots.
Option 2: Support summons have stronger effects but cost more slots
This also could help with piggy-backing, but would also make support summons incredibly limiting, as you would have to sacrifice a large chunk of slots to even use the summoms.
Option 3: They scale with minion slots
This would mean summoners are the only ones to benefit much from supports, but would make them awful in Pre-Hardmode due to lack of potential minion slots.
Option 4: There is a threshold for summoning them
This would mean that you need a certain amount of slots to use them, but they still only cost 1 slot. This is the most flexible option as the threshold could be different for each support, scaling them for their tier. This, in my opinion, would be the best option.
Part 3: Extreme Early-Game
For this part of the game, I have two ideas for summons; the Heart Construct and the Shield Construct. The Heart Construct would be crafted from a heart crystal and either of the 4th-tier ore bars and heal the player and nearby team-mates every 60 seconds. The Shield Construct would absorb a certain amount of damage before going on cooldown. It would be crafted from wooden armour, glass and either of the 4th-tier ore bars.
Part 4: Late Pre-Hardmode
The support summons for this stage of the game would consist of the Necro Heart Construct, the Cobalt Shield Construct, and the Hive. The Cobalt Shield Construct would be crafted from Ancient Cobalt or Jungle Armour and the Cobalt Shield. It would act as an upgrade to the Shield Construct. The Necro Heart Construct would be crafted from bones, spikes and the Heart Construct. It would heal more and periodically crate a defensive aura. The Hive would be a support weapon crafted from hive blocks and honeycombs, and would send out both worker and fighter bees periodically. Fighter bees would function like normal friendly bees, but worker bees would home in on the nearest ally or you 50% of the time (100% of the time in singleplayer) and would heal 3 HP and apply the Honey buff for 5 seconds.
Part 5: Early Hardmode
For this stage of progression, here are my ideas. There would be the Heart of Duality, crafted with a Necro Heart Construct, pixie dust, a Light Shard, and a Dark Shard. It would give periodical regen buffs on top of healing and defense. Regen and defense from the HoD are mutually exclusive. There would be an Ichor Heart, which applies Ichor to enemies, crafted from the Crimson Heart light pet and ichor, and the Cursed Orb, the Corrupt equivalent. There would also be the Adamantine/Titanium Shield Construct, an upgrade to the Cobalt Shield Construct which is crafted from the CSC and Adamantine/Titanium armor It's an interesting coincidence, but I've been thinking about it for the last three days, too. I was thinking about a support minion mob that could weaken the enemy's defense by 10 points, and I was thinking about a minion that could temporarily stop or slow down the enemy. ( (This idea came to me after thinking about the small level of the "mini shark " weapon, I thought that if you can't increase the damage, then why not create a minion that would reduce the enemy's defense )

I am not sure that I will support all the suggestions in this list of "supporting minions", but I definitely support the development of these ideas!
It's an interesting coincidence, but I've been thinking about it for the last three days too. I was thinking about "auxiliary minions" that could weaken the opponent's defense by 10 points, and I was thinking about a minion that could temporarily stop or slow down the enemy. (This idea came to my mind after thinking about the small damage of the "mini shark" weapon, I thought that if you can't increase the damage, then why not create a minion that would reduce the enemy's defense)

 

[IThinkQueenSlimeIsBad]

I am not sure that I will support all the suggestions in this list of "supporting minions", but I definitely support the development of these ideas!
It's an interesting coincidence, but I've been thinking about it for the last three days too. I was thinking about "auxiliary minions" that could weaken the opponent's defense by 10 points, and I was thinking about a minion that could temporarily stop or slow down the enemy. (This idea came to my mind after thinking about the small damage of the "mini shark" weapon, I thought that if you can't increase the damage, then why not create a minion that would reduce the enemy's defense)

That is an interesting coincidence!

 

[Aceplante]

I personally love the idea of support summons, and even made my own post about it here (Support Minion Ideas) which you should check out. I'm not sure what post of his you are referring to but if I remember mine is older. Anyways, to reiterate some of the points and arguments that came up there:

1. I don't understand the argument that they would somehow be a balance problem because keep in mind these would need to be used INSTEAD of damage summons.
2. If you are going to argue that "classes other than summoner could summon one of these for free healing", they can already get a free damage summon. Adding support minions would at least provides an interesting CHOICE on which you need more, damage of healing.
3. Obviously using healing minions instead of damaging ones is going to "decrease dps". Thats... the point. It's a trade off. You as the player would need to decide what is more important to your specific playstyle.

That being said, to make this better for players specifically trying to play a healer, while not being overpowered free easy/free bonuses for other players, I also suggested a few accessories and armor sets in my post here: Healer/Support class Items. Which again, should not be a balance issue since these would need to be used INSTEAD of other armor/accessories.

Overall, I view these as a perfect sidegrade to existing summons, sacrificing damage for healing.

The fundamental problem with support summons as a concept is that this would probably help non summoners a bit too much. Since they just would need one slot and summon this stuff, and get an unfair advantage without sacrificing a a lot for damage; summoners need their minion slots as their bread and butter for combat. @Big Sammich reminded me of this under some different post, forgot which, but it’s a fair point.

Read above. Is getting a free damage minion any better? At least with the addition of support minions there is now a choice you need to make. Also, for players that need the extra healing, we are aware and more than willing to "sacrifice damage".