Weapons & Equip The whips go against the principles of the summoner

Extend the range of the end game whips (you really need the range with the later bosses in master mode).
 
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Jostabeere said:
If I am not completely wrong, a build that isn't just tryharding for maximum damage would have around double the base damage of a weapon with armor and accessory bonuses.
If I am wrong, someone can correct me.
If you play a pure summoner, and focus only on the 5 summoner trinkets and wings+Insignia, your weapons are still somewhat over base damage. So strong weapons are still strong + you have your 11 summons on top of it.
Whips are just a gimmick. Your main source of damage are summons. As you've stated it. You are free to back them up with any weapon or focus entirely on dodging.
But no. People use a gimmick, die because they use a bad weapon and then complain that the weapon is bad.
I played a bit of summoner in 1.3. Never touched expert mode. 1.4 came in and I did a master playthrough with mainly a summoner. Never ever touched a single whip in my life.
See the summoner as one of the strongest "classes" if you don't count the broken-:red: stuff like Last Prism, Stealth S.D.M.G. and Zenith.
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The problem with whips, and I wonder how often does it need to be stated, is that they're practically useless and the risk of using them isn't worth it. As in, an entire weapon class is not worth using and doesn't even fulfill it's purpose well as a support weapon due to how tagging with them works. And now, consider why is it that, out of the only two types of weapons summoners get, one of them is so useless it may as well just not exist? Whips deal low damage, they cannot tag the same target reliably, do not have enough range to get away, and don't even have enough knockback to help users get away from monsters.
 
TMB50 said:
The problem with whips, and I wonder how often does it need to be stated, is that they're practically useless and the risk of using them isn't worth it. As in, an entire weapon class is not worth using and doesn't even fulfill it's purpose well as a support weapon due to how tagging with them works. And now, consider why is it that, out of the only two types of weapons summoners get, one of them is so useless it may as well just not exist? Whips deal low damage, they cannot tag the same target reliably, do not have enough range to get away, and don't even have enough knockback to help users get away from monsters.
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use bulky or sluggish with morning star youll get range and damage and summoner is about leaving enemies alone and let your minions kill anyway
 
TMB50 said:
The problem with whips, and I wonder how often does it need to be stated, is that they're practically useless and the risk of using them isn't worth it. As in, an entire weapon class is not worth using and doesn't even fulfill it's purpose well as a support weapon due to how tagging with them works. And now, consider why is it that, out of the only two types of weapons summoners get, one of them is so useless it may as well just not exist? Whips deal low damage, they cannot tag the same target reliably, do not have enough range to get away, and don't even have enough knockback to help users get away from monsters.
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Don't use them then. That easy. Period.
Shortswords are an entire weapon class noone uses. Because they're bad. Noone complains about them. Whips are the same. Either use them or stop using them.
What is the issue?
A lot of weapons are simply not used. Making all of them OP now?
Want a n OP summoner? Use Psycho Knife.
 
Jostabeere said:
Don't use them then. That easy. Period.
Shortswords are an entire weapon class noone uses. Because they're bad. Noone complains about them. Whips are the same. Either use them or stop using them.
What is the issue?
A lot of weapons are simply not used. Making all of them OP now?
Want a n OP summoner? Use Psycho Knife.
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pyscho knife isnt a summoner weapon so if your doing summon damage only then whips can still have a use as a backup if your minions are being dumb
 
I haven't seen anyone comment here about summon tag damage and critical hit chance. The tag damage makes whips much more powerful. And the effects...if you use Dark Harvest with the Xeno Staff during OOA it makes everything die really fast, because every hit on the 'tagged' enemy does 10 damage to every enemy nearby.

Summons don't usually have a critical hit chance. The bonus critical hit from Kaleidoscope makes Stardust Dragon do much more damage.

You don't have to kill bosses with the whip, you're supposed to leap in, hit once, and leap out, waiting for the next chance. The tag effects raise DPS by a lot!
 
Generating_Username said:
class playthroughs
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1. Are a made-up things which are not a game mechanic. If someone limits himself to something limited, the games balance should not be changed to this.
I already made that argument. If I do an iron armor and weapons only challenge, should everything up to Moonlord be nerfed so I can finish the game easily with Iron stuff or should Iron stuff be buffed so I can steamroll any boss?
No, you would say.
Why should something else be buffed or nerfed just because people made up challenges?
2. You do not need to attack with the Knife to get the desired bonus.
 
Jostabeere said:
1. Are a made-up things which are not a game mechanic. If someone limits himself to something limited, the games balance should not be changed to this.
I already made that argument. If I do an iron armor and weapons only challenge, should everything up to Moonlord be nerfed so I can finish the game easily with Iron stuff or should Iron stuff be buffed so I can steamroll any boss?
No, you would say.
Why should something else be buffed or nerfed just because people made up challenges?
2. You do not need to attack with the Knife to get the desired bonus.
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iron armor is in prehardmode for a reason you shouldnt be able to get an endgame item at the start also this arguement is a bit long
 
TMB50 said:
The problem with whips, and I wonder how often does it need to be stated, is that they're practically useless and the risk of using them isn't worth it. As in, an entire weapon class is not worth using and doesn't even fulfill it's purpose well as a support weapon due to how tagging with them works. And now, consider why is it that, out of the only two types of weapons summoners get, one of them is so useless it may as well just not exist? Whips deal low damage, they cannot tag the same target reliably, do not have enough range to get away, and don't even have enough knockback to help users get away from monsters.
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Honestly i think they should add an accesory that increases the lenght of the whip by half of the original lenght of the whip. It should be something like a whip extension and i think it should be sold by the skeleton merchant.
 
Jostabeere said:
If all that matters to you is doing damage of the right type, you are simply a horrible terraria player.
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Ningishu should enter the chat.

Class playthroughs are often a very interesting puzzle game. (Like my least favourite, how does a ranger kill anything without farming ammo for realtime days.)
Just like starting summoner right now, realizing your world has no useless silly bird staff, your class challenge prohibits the use of violence against slimes using molten rock and hazardous environments.
What's your next move?
I know the answer, it is an exciting puzzle to solve, tho it is a little bit tedious this time.
I preferred solving the summoner puzzle with Reaver Shark.

Anyways, that's a new way to play the game and believe me: after the first several hundred worlds, you're going to try out things like that. Class challenges are the most common of all and I'd say there are more players following a class challenge in their games than the ones not. Partially due to the fact that even the game's mechanics, the synergies of the accessories the game has are built around these "class" setups.
 
Kardfogu said:
Ningishu should enter the chat.

Class playthroughs are often a very interesting puzzle game. (Like my least favourite, how does a ranger kill anything without farming ammo for realtime days.)
Just like starting summoner right now, realizing your world has no useless silly bird staff, your class challenge prohibits the use of violence against slimes using molten rock and hazardous environments.
What's your next move?
I know the answer, it is an exciting puzzle to solve, tho it is a little bit tedious this time.
I preferred solving the summoner puzzle with Reaver Shark.

Anyways, that's a new way to play the game and believe me: after the first several hundred worlds, you're going to try out things like that. Class challenges are the most common of all and I'd say there are more players following a class challenge in their games than the ones not. Partially due to the fact that even the game's mechanics, the synergies of the accessories the game has are built around these "class" setups.
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i could not have said it better
 
Kardfogu said:
Ningishu should enter the chat.

Class playthroughs are often a very interesting puzzle game. (Like my least favourite, how does a ranger kill anything without farming ammo for realtime days.)
Just like starting summoner right now, realizing your world has no useless silly bird staff, your class challenge prohibits the use of violence against slimes using molten rock and hazardous environments.
What's your next move?
I know the answer, it is an exciting puzzle to solve, tho it is a little bit tedious this time.
I preferred solving the summoner puzzle with Reaver Shark.

Anyways, that's a new way to play the game and believe me: after the first several hundred worlds, you're going to try out things like that. Class challenges are the most common of all and I'd say there are more players following a class challenge in their games than the ones not. Partially due to the fact that even the game's mechanics, the synergies of the accessories the game has are built around these "class" setups.
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While it is a well-written post, it still goes against the fundamental idea of balancing things or introducing things to the game.
Artificially making a game harder should not be an argument to change something within the game for everyone.
There is an objective core of the game, and there are subjective challenges and peoples perception. One is an argument to balance the game around, the other two aren't.
The games balance is not made around what people feel or make up, it is made around what is actually there.
And class challenges are not an actual, physical part of the game. Thus balancing anything around them should not be happening.
If you have a world without Finch staff, too bad, but in a nosmal world you don't really care. You have lots of other weapons.
You should not be given something that is supposed to be random simply because you refuse to do something else.
Anyway. If you create an artificial challenge, create artificial rules. Give yourself the staff via an editor, it will not change anything or make it easier/harder.
 
Jostabeere said:
While it is a well-written post, it still goes against the fundamental idea of balancing things or introducing things to the game.
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Let's look at it from a different point of view.
Your poin of view.
Fundamental idea of balancing things. Think about it. In that regard, shouldn't a bad weapon be less bad in comparison to where you get it.
If we disregard armor and items supporting these weapons, we get to the point that for a generalist style character there is no use for a whip, which would be a very good reason to put them in line.
Then again, whips have mechanics that are synergetic with other items, unlike shortswords.
Not to mention there is a shortsword that was nerfed in the current patch for some reason.
Namely the Fetid Baghnakhs. Another one the Arkhalis was moved into hardmode.
I don't think shortswords are the best weapon type to refer for your point.

This comes from someone who actually likes whips the way they are.
Master mode summoner (before obtaining a pickaxe capable of mining Hellstone) is all about charging at enemies with the Shield of Cthulhu and whipping them. That said I have nothing about this melee playstyle for summoner. Then again, I have realized that whips are not a weapon class useful for spamming hits with. It's a weapon class used for tagging enemies for massive damage.
Whips are fundamentally part of a "class setup" and yet some of us talk about them as if they were not.
They don't work without summons.

However, while my point obviously goes against the OP, I am objective about this and I happen to agree with all the problems whips have.
Whips reward the exact opposite a summoner is supposed to do in the game. That I do not regard fundamentally flawed, entering this melee range is a high risk & high reward playstyle for a summoner as summon tag damage is a huge boost to DPS.
On the other hand, melee prefixes and nitpicking about melee bonuses is just outright weird.
Whips are affected by melee speed, unaffected by melee damage, critical hit chance and flasks. The latter is kinda bad, it's gross to use my golden shower on every single enemy in the game just for the Ichor debuff.
 
Kardfogu said:
Then again, whips have mechanics that are synergetic with other items, unlike shortswords.
Not to mention there is a shortsword that was nerfed in the current patch for some reason.
Namely the Fetid Baghnakhs. Another one the Arkhalis was moved into hardmode.
I don't think shortswords are the best weapon type to refer for your point.

This comes from someone who actually likes whips the way they are.
Master mode summoner (before obtaining a pickaxe capable of mining Hellstone) is all about charging at enemies with the Shield of Cthulhu and whipping them. That said I have nothing about this melee playstyle for summoner. Then again, I have realized that whips are not a weapon class useful for spamming hits with. It's a weapon class used for tagging enemies for massive damage.
Whips are fundamentally part of a "class setup" and yet some of us talk about them as if they were not.
They don't work without summons.

However, while my point obviously goes against the OP, I am objective about this and I happen to agree with all the problems whips have.
Whips reward the exact opposite a summoner is supposed to do in the game. That I do not regard fundamentally flawed, entering this melee range is a high risk & high reward playstyle for a summoner as summon tag damage is a huge boost to DPS.
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For some, to me unknown reason, people see whips as just one weapon. And not as a weapon + all the summons you have. They complain about two things.
Damage. Compare damage of a well-geared summoner with 9-11 summons + the whip to a different geared player without summons or maybe one summon. The overall damage is similar, if we exclude obviously broken things like the Zenith.
Range. A lot of people complain that they can't tag properly cause they need to go in melee range. To that all I can say is: tag with your staff.
Seriously, why do 99.9% of people do not know this? The tag mechanic is old as hell...

Unrelated note. The Baghnakhs were nerfed due to insane damage output. You could facetank any boss and spamkill it. Before it kills you.

I disagree that this is how a mastermode summoner should be player. It is artificial cripping people do.
I did a for the worthy 99% summoner. Bee gear, the good accessories, since pre-hm has barely any damageclass-specific, a summoner staff and weapons. A Flamelash, a Boomstick or a Star Cannon. Had barely any trouble to go through it. It was definitely easier than, let's say, a pure melee player.
Terraria has an open system where you can change anything on the fly. it is a core mechanic of the game that you can adapt to any boss or situation with different gear.
People throw this fundamental mechanic out of the window for arbitrary challenges, full knowingly, and then complain that stuff is too hard.

Also if you use a different weapon, with higher DPS, you don't lose anything DPS-wise as the weapon outDPSes summon tag.
 
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