PC 1.3.0.5 Phantasm buff

syn

Terrarian
I agree, there's no reason to use a gun that's still stronger than most of the guns before it and also has homing rockets.
Oh, wait.


You don't think buffing it from 63 to 70 damage because it was underperforming, and then immediately smacking it down from 70 to 50 damage (A whopping 29% nerf) the very next patch is completely schizophrenic, nonsensical balancing?

Ranged is already mediocre DPS-wise (and just feels terrible clearing end-game content on Expert, and this is coming from someone who has cleared all of Expert solo without any cheese and was always a huge fan of ranged), and is in an terrible place as far as weapon variety is concerned; and this ridiculous change further reinforces that only viable option left for Ranged players is the SDMG which is yet another comically lazy Megashark clone, while Melee, Mages and Summoners have never had more variety in their viable options.


2. Vortex Beater and Phantasm were NOT receiving Ranged Damage benefits, including Stealth, before 1.3.0.5. So if you are sitting there in Vortex Armor and Stealthed, your Vortex Beater/Phantasm was displaying an increased base damage, but it wasn't actually dealing it. Lets say your Vortex Armor, Stealth, and Ranger Emblem and Sniper Scope add some . . . I dunno, 100% extra damage. VB and Phantasm WERE NOT getting these in practice. This was added back in, and it ended up literally doubling (or more) both of their DPSs in combat . . . so when you see things like "Vortex Beater lost 20 damage without compensation" this isn't quite accurate. You may have lost a chunk of listed damage on the tooltip, but the actual performance of the gun has improved.

It was severely nerfed for those who were using it without Ranged armor. Twist it all you like, but that's a hard fact.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
You don't think buffing it from 63 to 70 damage because it was underperforming, and then immediately smacking it down from 70 to 50 damage (A whopping 29% nerf) the very next patch is completely schizophrenic, nonsensical balancing?

If you haven't seen my post yet, the following was the timeline of events:
1. Vortex Beater is underperforming at 63. Despite tacking on full Ranger Gear, the gun just didn't seem that strong, despite a decent listed damage.
2. It gets a minor buff to 70 to help it out.
3. Bug is discovered in Bug Reports section showing that Vortex Beater wasn't getting ranged damage bonuses; 70 buffed to 140 was still doing 70. This is why it was underperforming.
4. Bug is fixed, damage now appropriately scales to 140 in practice, suddenly gun is way too strong (its been being balanced around broken numbers all this time)
5. Raw damage is reduced to 50 so that in practice, Ranger damage scaling should bring it up to around 100 (whereas before it was still at 70, despite a higher listed number on the tooltip).

The damage reduction is to counteract a much more serious bug that was literally cutting the damage of VB by about half when used by Rangers. I'd say that assuming Vortex/Shroomite Armor and at least one Ranger damage accessory, VB should be doing around 30-40% more in the hands of a Ranger than it was in 1.3.0.4, despite the "nerf". I'm not exactly sure of the stats on Phantasm, but it too should be seeing a substantial improvement, possibly more, due to Magic Quiver.

It was severely nerfed for those who were using it without Ranged armor. Twist it all you like, but that's a hard fact.

Won't deny that, but on the other hand, it is indeed a Ranged weapon. Should it really be all that powerful in the hands of a non-Ranger?
 
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syn

Terrarian
Won't deny that, but on the other hand, it is indeed a Ranged weapon. Should it really be all that powerful in the hands of a non-Ranger?

I think it should still be useful, yes; as it was a great filler-weapon for Summoners and a great off-screen kiting weapon for Melee, especially in Expert. Melee is useful for everyone. Summons are useful for everyone. Magic is useful for everyone. Ranged is only useful for Rangers.

Don't you find that odd?
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
Ranged is only useful for Rangers.

Ranged is only useful for rangers? What?!

The way I see it, everything is useful for everyone. You may not be able to reach an equipment's full potential without the appropriate gear, but I would never generalize and say that weapons are only benefitted by their own class.

I primarily play melee, and the SDMG has proven to be a beacon of utility for me.
 
Am I the only ranger who actually sticks to ranger gear?

When i'm using ranger accessories, i'm not gonna use any mage weapons, or summoner weapons I may have a sword, but thats about it, and a good 1/5th of my inventory is dedicated purely to ammo
 

syn

Terrarian
Ranged is only useful for rangers? What?!

The way I see it, everything is useful for everyone. You may not be able to reach an equipment's full potential without the appropriate gear, but I would never generalize and say that weapons are only benefitted by their own class.

I primarily play melee, and the SDMG has proven to be a beacon of utility for me.

Vortex Beater certainly is only useful to ranged after the gigantic 29% nerf for non-ranged, and SDMG besides being yet another comically boring megashark clone just demolishes ammo.
 
Vortex Beater certainly is only useful to ranged after the gigantic 29% nerf for non-ranged, and SDMG besides being yet another comically boring megashark clone just demolishes ammo.
nothing demolishes ammo if you have an ammo box buff active, and consume an ammo potion, heck you can get practically infinite ammo as a ranger from the set bonus, gun/bow bonus, potion/ammo box
 

syn

Terrarian
nothing demolishes ammo if you have an ammo box buff active, and consume an ammo potion, heck you can get practically infinite ammo as a ranger from the set bonus, gun/bow bonus, potion/ammo box
Heh, what? You do understand that those bonuses are not additive, but multiplicative and that I've been addressing the arbitrary gutting of the weapon for non-rangers, right?
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
Really? Even with the 50% reduced ammo consumption, ammo box, and ease of creating luminite bullets?

Weakening one weapon doesn't mean that everything labeled under a class renders them useless. I'd still find the Vortex Beater far from useless. At least, that's not a word I'd use to describe it. At all.

The SDMG being "comically boring", as you see it, does not negate any factor of usefulness.
 
Heh, what? You do understand that those bonuses are not additive, but multiplicative and that I've been addressing the arbitrary gutting of the weapon for non-rangers, right?
You do realize that because they are multiplicative instead of additive that its actually a good thing right?

yeah i'm aware you're complaining that the gun is trash for non rangers except its not trash it may not be the sdmg, but if you'll be damned before you use the SDMG then it will suffice as a extremely useful crowd control weapon, and no it doesn't suck now it just needs a little push in the right direction to murder everything like before :dryadmad:
 

syn

Terrarian
You do realize that because they are multiplicative instead of additive that its actually a good thing right?

yeah i'm aware you're complaining that the gun is trash for non rangers except its not trash it may not be the sdmg, but if you'll be damned before you use the SDMG then it will suffice as a extremely useful crowd control weapon, and no it doesn't suck now it just needs a little push in the right direction to murder everything like before :dryadmad:

You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of additive vs multiplicative bonuses.
 
You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of additive vs multiplicative bonuses.
I think you should reanalyze that statement considering how important the difference was for me in the past playing another game.... where additive was less useful than multiplicative for the same reasons....


its the difference in how things are calculated with multiple bonuses. ex:

Additive:
100 +10% +10% +20% = 140

Multiplicative:
100 +10% ( =110) + 10% ( =121) +20% = 145

with bigger numbers, the difference can be a lot bigger as well.
 

652Graystripe

Plantera
Its when it starts shooting a bunch of ghostly-green/blue arrows at whatever you're shooting at, in addition to the regular arrows it fires. They've always been there, but they don't appear when you're shooting dummies. It has to be actual enemies.
Those are Luminite Arrows, I believe.
 

syn

Terrarian
I think you should reanalyze that statement considering how important the difference was for me in the past playing another game.... where additive was less useful than multiplicative for the same reasons....


its the difference in how things are calculated with multiple bonuses. ex:

Additive:
100 +10% +10% +20% = 140

Multiplicative:
100 +10% ( =110) + 10% ( =121) +20% = 145

with bigger numbers, the difference can be a lot bigger as well.

That's not at all how it works in Terraria.
 

syn

Terrarian
Then do explain how it works, and if you happen to be right all that comes of this is me now knowing that Terraria Handles its Additive/Multiplicative bonuses differently


Enlighten me

Each ammo reduction chance is its own separate check. To make this simple, we'll assume you're using the Vortex Beater with Vortex Armor and the Ammo Box.

The Vortex Beater offers a 66% chance to not consume ammo, the Vortex Breastplate a 25% chance, and the Ammo Box buff a 20% chance.

This does not add up to a 111% chance to not consume ammo. How this actually works is that every time you fire, a dice roll is made for each ammo-reducing item you have.

What this looks like in basic terms is this:

1-66 = No ammo, 67-100, rolling next item
1-25 = No ammo, 26-100, rolling next item
1-20 = No ammo, 21-100 shot consumes ammo

This is why the SDMG tears through ammo like no other, especially when you don't have any ranged set further reducing the ammo chance.

I hope this was enlightening for you.
 
Each ammo reduction chance is its own separate check. To make this simple, we'll assume you're using the Vortex Beater with Vortex Armor and the Ammo Box.

The Vortex Beater offers a 66% chance to not consume ammo, the Vortex Breastplate a 25% chance, and the Ammo Box buff a 20% chance.

This does not add up to a 111% chance to not consume ammo. How this actually works is that every time you fire, a dice roll is made for each ammo-reducing item you have.

What this looks like in basic terms is this:

1-66 = No ammo, 67-100, rolling next item
1-25 = No ammo, 26-100, rolling next item
1-20 = No ammo, 21-100 shot consumes ammo

This is why the SDMG tears through ammo like no other, especially when you don't have any ranged set further reducing the ammo chance.

I hope this was enlightening for you.
Apologies this was very enlightening, and would explain why through testing a combined value over 100% wasn't infinite ammo.... thanks for telling me here before I go somewhere else, and then say the wrong thing.... :dryadgrin:
 

syn

Terrarian
Apologies this was very enlightening, and would explain why through testing a combined value over 100% wasn't infinite ammo.... thanks for telling me here before I go somewhere else, and then say the wrong thing.... :dryadgrin:

It's okay, it's always fun to learn how interesting mechanics work.
 
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