Weapons & Equip Better ninja and crystal assasin armor

[Coleyohley]

Blade staff used to drop from enchanted swords and got switched to a queen slime drop (which im thankful for) but it dropping from enchanted swords made more sense. Don´t think this matters though.

Again, it's not really something I really have an issue with, just something I noticed (I am also very thankful for the Blade Staff change).

That said, while I think what we have now is just fine, I think the boss dropping its core to be crafted into the player's choice feels better.

Queen slime dropping her core may just be re-naming the gelatin fragments since I made the sprite out of that.

View attachment 464234 View attachment 464235

Yeah, I do like that, though I'm not sure how necessary of a change it is. Currently, there's a 66% chance you obtain the full set by the second kill, and around a 90% chance you obtain it by the third; this rework makes it a 0% chance to obtain by the second kill and a 100% chance to obtain by the third, so I'm not sure if it really solves the problem of the armor taking too many bossfights to obtain, just makes it more consistent.

Edit 2: nvm my math was right.

 

[Big Sammich]

Crystal assassin armor:

Nvm this thing is quite strong. But still, having to kill queen slime till you obtain all pieces sucks.

• Queen slime now always drops 1 gelatin fragments

View attachment 464225(Sprite for these)

• Queen slime no longer drops crystal assassin armor pieces.
• Each crystal assassin armor piece is crafted with 1 gelatin fragment and 5 palladium/cobalt bars.

It should drop 2 Gelatin Fragments in Expert+, since QS drops 2 pieces of the armor in Expert+.

 

[Orchamut]

I still don't understand how any form of dash on a really annoying to obtain armor set with pitiful defense, in Classic mode, theoretically before EoC, would be broken in every scenario.
Can't you get instant acceleration/direction changing for no accessory slot with hooks, or am I missing something?
Just look at the Slimy Saddle, considering how effective it is against Eater of Worlds in Classic mode, I'd say using that reasoning it'd be broken too.
I'm just looking for an explanation.

 

[benry gaming]

So ill go straigth to the point, ninja armor sucks and crystal assassin armor can be good due to it´s set bonus and decent stats but provides no stats for mages (kinda) or summoners. What could be made to fix this is up to debate but the main idea is to make ninja armor worth it and make crystal assassin armor worth to use for mages and summoners. So my idea here to fix these issues:

Ninja armor:

• Replaced full set bonus with +20% acceleration and deceleration.
• Replaced the +3% crit chance on each piece with +5% movement speed and +2% damage.

Crystal assassin armor:

Nvm this thing is quite strong. But still, having to kill queen slime till you obtain all pieces sucks.

• Queen slime now always drops 1 gelatin fragments

View attachment 464225(Sprite for these)

• Queen slime no longer drops crystal assassin armor pieces.
• Each crystal assassin armor piece is crafted with 1 gelatin fragment and 5 palladium/cobalt bars.

This would be amazing, someone should make this into a mod

 

[Big Sammich]

I still don't understand how any form of dash on a really annoying to obtain armor set with pitiful defense, in Classic mode, theoretically before EoC, would be broken in every scenario.
Can't you get instant acceleration/direction changing for no accessory slot with hooks, or am I missing something?
Just look at the Slimy Saddle, considering how effective it is against Eater of Worlds in Classic mode, I'd say using that reasoning it'd be broken too.
I'm just looking for an explanation.

To be clear, the main person who believes it's broken is me. Most of the people on this forum don't agree, and they think it's fine.

I think it's broken because, unlike hooks, you don't need any blocks nearby to make this work and the movement change happens as soon as you input the dash. Hooks also run the risk of immobilizing you for a second or so if you don't cancel the hook quickly, which is dangerous. So hooks are usable in fewer situations and require much greater skill. As far as I'm concerned, there's a reason why pre-Hardmode dashes only exist in Expert mode. You simply do not need this level of mobility until the difficulty goes up. I believe that putting a dash on Ninja armor would allow you to clear the entire rest of Classic pre-Hardmode without ever changing to a different armor set, and that's indicative of bad balance.

But, again, I'm just one guy, and I'm not even that good at judging balance. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[J Bame]

I still don't understand how any form of dash on a really annoying to obtain armor set with pitiful defense, in Classic mode, theoretically before EoC, would be broken in every scenario.
Can't you get instant acceleration/direction changing for no accessory slot with hooks, or am I missing something?
Just look at the Slimy Saddle, considering how effective it is against Eater of Worlds in Classic mode, I'd say using that reasoning it'd be broken too.
I'm just looking for an explanation.

In all my time in this community, including talks with people who have optimized their fun out of the game, i have never once seen someone use a hook in place of a dash. It may be true that Hooks are technically as good as dashes to some extent, but in practice NEVER have i seen anyone actually use them as a replacement.

And really, it makes sense. You need very precise aim and timing to use a hook in the same way you'd use a dash: instant acceleration is the primary use, secondary being a quick burst of speed. You turn around constantly in combat and god forbid you are ever in the air. The skill ceiling it would take to use a hook in place of a dash is far higher than anything in this game would ever demand.

Because of this, people always have a dash on them. More specifically, an accessory that gives instant or greatly improved acceleration. Thanks to the Shield of Cthulhu we have a dash available very very early into the game. Because of this, a set bonus or passive effect that fixes acceleration replaces Shield of Cthulhu in any build, and so it's basically the same thing as having another accessory slot to play with. Yes, i know Master Ninja Gear and Shield of Cthulhu have other advantages. It doesn't matter, 90% of what makes them good is the acceleration, so anything that replaces them needs to be very carefully balanced to not break balance.

I have no idea what Slimy Saddle has to do with any of this. It's a one-use vertical boost, no more no less.

 

[Flint🪓]

I think it's broken because, unlike hooks, you don't I believe that putting a dash on Ninja armor would allow you to clear the entire rest of Classic pre-Hardmode without ever changing to a different armor set.

I had in mind that ninja armor could boost dashes instead of granting one, not sure how this would work.

i have never once seen someone use a hook in place of a dash.

Not that it replaces dashes but using a hook to change directions can be useful to not bounce of enemies, helpful to escape spining skeletron and skeletron prime, spaz's cursed flames and plantera if you get stuck. Not that it is too useful though.

 

[Orchamut]

To be clear, the main person who believes it's broken is me. Most of the people on this forum don't agree, and they think it's fine.

I think it's broken because, unlike hooks, you don't need any blocks nearby to make this work and the movement change happens as soon as you input the dash. Hooks also run the risk of immobilizing you for a second or so if you don't cancel the hook quickly, which is dangerous. So hooks are usable in fewer situations and require much greater skill. As far as I'm concerned, there's a reason why pre-Hardmode dashes only exist in Expert mode. You simply do not need this level of mobility until the difficulty goes up. I believe that putting a dash on Ninja armor would allow you to clear the entire rest of Classic pre-Hardmode without ever changing to a different armor set, and that's indicative of bad balance.

But, again, I'm just one guy, and I'm not even that good at judging balance. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I can see Ninja Set using a full dash to be really powerful, but the one I'm envisioning would probably go about half the distance of the Shield of Cthulhu, and maybe have a longer cooldown. I also kind of have a petty personal issue with finding dashes unreliable because it's difficult for me to activate the dash quickly (even on PC) but I guess that's not a problem most players seem to have.

In all my time in this community, including talks with people who have optimized their fun out of the game, i have never once seen someone use a hook in place of a dash. It may be true that Hooks are technically as good as dashes to some extent, but in practice NEVER have i seen anyone actually use them as a replacement.

And really, it makes sense. You need very precise aim and timing to use a hook in the same way you'd use a dash: instant acceleration is the primary use, secondary being a quick burst of speed. You turn around constantly in combat and god forbid you are ever in the air. The skill ceiling it would take to use a hook in place of a dash is far higher than anything in this game would ever demand.

Because of this, people always have a dash on them. More specifically, an accessory that gives instant or greatly improved acceleration. Thanks to the Shield of Cthulhu we have a dash available very very early into the game. Because of this, a set bonus or passive effect that fixes acceleration replaces Shield of Cthulhu in any build, and so it's basically the same thing as having another accessory slot to play with. Yes, i know Master Ninja Gear and Shield of Cthulhu have other advantages. It doesn't matter, 90% of what makes them good is the acceleration, so anything that replaces them needs to be very carefully balanced to not break balance.

I don't make replacing dashes with hooks a normal thing, but I feel like you get the same effect out of using them that way pre-boss when you usually don't have much air mobility anyway and have an arena with several tiers of platforms. I didn't think about how it would affect things past earlygame though, I just kind of assumed a full armor set would be more impactful than a single accessory in most scenarios.

I have no idea what Slimy Saddle has to do with any of this. It's a one-use vertical boost, no more no less.

It's been a while since I've done it or seen it mentioned but I'm pretty sure Slimy Saddle makes EoW a lot easier in Classic because it's usually coming at you from below, and the invincibility from the Slimy Saddle means you have to worry much less about being hit a lot if you position yourself well.
(It's irrelevant in Expert because it spits at you anyway.)

 

[Big Sammich]

I can see Ninja Set using a full dash to be really powerful, but the one I'm envisioning would probably go about half the distance of the Shield of Cthulhu, and maybe have a longer cooldown. I also kind of have a petty personal issue with finding dashes unreliable because it's difficult for me to activate the dash quickly (even on PC) but I guess that's not a problem most players seem to have.

The distance really doesn't matter, and the cooldown would barely matter either unless it's several seconds (like 8+). It's about the acceleration and the ability to turn around instantly.

 

[Coleyohley]

My take is that if dashing is expected to be used a lot in Expert, it should probably exist in Classic too, to let players practice with it. It wouldn't break anything either, as attempting to dodge bosses in classic is about the  least effective way to deal with them: Facetanking, Outrunning, and Burning them down are all better, easier ways to kill bosses in Classic Mode than actually trying to use your skill and timing to dodge them with dashes. I don't see how the mere existence of a dash in prehardmode would be broken at all.

 

[Orchamut]

The distance really doesn't matter, and the cooldown would barely matter either unless it's several seconds (like 8+). It's about the acceleration and the ability to turn around instantly.

I still think that hooks cause that to not really be a problem for the first few bosses, but in the larger scheme of things, no idea. Maybe it would be broken, but I just don't really see how considering pre-Hardmode bosses don't usually require super intense dodging.

My take is that if dashing is going to be expected to be used a lot in Expert, it should probably exist in Classic too, to let players practice with it. It wouldn't break anything either, as attempting to dodge bosses in classic is about the  least effective way to deal with them: Facetanking, Outrunning, and Burning them down are all better, easier ways to kill bosses in Classic Mode than actually trying to use your skill and timing to dodge them with dashes. I don't see how the mere existence of a dash in prehardmode would be broken at all.

But actually this here is the main reason I advocate for it. I like the idea of more options and having a way for earlygame Classic players to try out a dash option of their own, because there it's easy to just tank bosses anyway or do other things that require much less skill than using dashes effectively.

And I find it hard to believe this would affect the meta much. After Queen Slime, dashing Ninja armor would become irrelevant anyway. And for a few difficult pre-Hardmode bosses like Queen Bee and Wall of Flesh, I personally don't find dashes to be as helpful as vertical acceleration. But again, no idea.

 

[Ferrin🌳]

I had the idea of a Ninja armor buff, but this wouldnt be how I want it. Perhaps I would make it a melee armor and give more defense since there is no proper melee armor early game.

Nah that's just bad idea, it's a classless set which is mainly usefull on multilayer as then you have real chances of getting it.

Dash would probably make it a bit op but then again it's not like you need extra accessory slots at the time when this set is used
At most you'll have to choose between boots, ballon, band of regeneration, mana flower, feral gloves, these basic wings, sharktooth neclese
That gives us 4 all class, 5 if 2% chance for wings hits(i'll ignore this further)
including class accessories that gives us 5, with shield of cathulu 6
So you eighter can carry all of it or need to leave behind one of them
You're very unlikely to have all of them by the time you defeat evil boss and that's the time when usefulness of Ninja armor ends as there are far better options
So maybe dash would not be that op @Big Sammich

 

[MurderMitts]

First, I feel as if it should be clarified; does the dash deal contact and grant I-frames? This could be relevant. Dashing could be used with the prior conditions to “dodge” harder attacks using the invincibility.

Anyways, I like the rebalancing. The ninja armor is practically vanity by the time you get it, and not the best one either. The crystal assassin armor does seem to benefit as well. My only suggestion is to make it craftable with a higher tier of ore. You have to get t.3 ore for chlorophyte anyways.

As for the dodge. No. I don’t think we need a new one added. Expert already has SoC and classic doesn’t need one pre-HM. It’s a powerful ability when used correctly, and it feels unnecessary in classic until later bosses. Maybe for a speedrun, but then why classic?

 

[Flint🪓]

First, I feel as if it should be clarified; does the dash deal contact and grant I-frames? This could be relevant. Dashing could be used with the prior conditions to “dodge” harder attacks using the invincibility.

I had in mind to make it like the SoC but without it bouncing off enemies.

Anyways, I like the rebalancing. The ninja armor is practically vanity by the time you get it, and not the best one either. The crystal assassin armor does seem to benefit as well. My only suggestion is to make it craftable with a higher tier of ore. You have to get t.3 ore for chlorophyte anyways.

Crystal assassin can be useful to skip t3 hardmode ores so making it need those kinda kills that point.

 

[Flint🪓]

it should probably exist in Classic too, to let players practice with it.

To be fair, for that purpose be have crystal assassin and master ninja gear since you can get those in classic too.

 

[MurderMitts]

Crystal assassin can be useful to skip t3 hardmode ores so making it need those kinda kills that point.

That was the intent. I could see why one would want to skip it, but I disagree.

 

[Coleyohley]

To be fair, for that purpose be have crystal assassin and master ninja gear since you can get those in classic too.

And I'd say it should also be an earlier option, to make it a consistent mobility tool throughout the game; it's far from overpowered given the other nonsense you can get away with in Classic mode.