Expand Your Terraria Empire - Pylons, Town Building, and NPC Happiness

[TubaVeganMason]

And that is the issue people are having with this change: some things are subjective! I quite like the look and feel of the bases I build. Being hit with a fine for not making things twice the size will kill all my enthusiasm for the game.
I have no intention to ever go to those 3x10 prison cells I have seen people use... But if having one central nexus to build around is "wrong" enough to incur a penalty, then I guess I'm not creative enough to play this game any longer.

All you have to do is either give your NPCs adequate space, place them next to people they enjoy, or place them in a biome they enjoy, and the entire penalty will likely be completely removed. It is incredibly simple to just accomplish one of these things while still building in your style, so there's not really anything to worry about.

 

[VoltrenXytech]

this seems like a pretty good update, but you haven't told us what happens if the NPCs are unhappy, plus once you go into hard mode and the hollowed/crimson/corruption start to spread, wont that make NPCs incredibly scared, also destroying biomes and turning them into hallowed/crimson/corrupt making it so other biome pylons will stop working until you get the hollowed/crimson/corrupt versions, which if i recall correctly, villagers will not move back in when in a certain range on corrupt/crimson biomes

now i know you said prices will adjust based on their happiness, but i get the nasty feeling your not telling us something, you guys are great, but there have been past.... incidents, like announcing new weather types, and enemies that come with them, but didn't tell us that half the enemies are as hard or harder than wyverns, or suddenly making the compass much harder to get, by removing it from mimics (had a 15% chance to drop) and putting it in salamanders/crawdads/shellies/vikings/flinx/etc etc a less than 2% drop chance

you guys are really good at what you do, but if you would be so kind as to not blindside us with super nasty changes, still cant get over how intense and hard (almost sadistic) the sandstorms are, and they are almost constantly going on, hopefully alot of the sadistic stuff gets changed, even if its just by a tiny bit, hell ive been fishing for 5 weeks now, just trying to finish the cellphone to bring into journeys end, got just about everything in the first 2 days, but i had to spend a week farming the compass, and 4 weeks fishing, and im still missing the sextant, but dont worry, i have 7 stacks of fishing/crate/sonar potions (please adjust the fishing quest system, im mentally dying here)

 

[Ilmarinen]

No overcrowding

Now see that's an example. There hasn't been a real good explanation of what "overcrowed" means. Does it mean that an apartment/house needs X or more blocks of internal free space to not be consider crowded? Does it mean that an NPC considers himself crowded if his room shares a wall with another NPCs room? Does it mean that a NPC considers himself crowded if his room flag is set within X number of blocks say 5 or more other NPC flags?

No hated NPCs

There again we don't how close is too close for a disliked neighbor.
We're really in a vacuum of information where it counts. I think that's where all the confusion and stress is coming from. I'm certain 90% of it would go away if there was just a bit more clarity on the specifics of the mechanics.

How else do updates work? Do you want them to go back in time and implement it 2 years in?

The thing is that this arguably ends up being a genera change, if not for the whole game, then a major part of the game. I'm of the opinion that changing major game mechanics late into development is a rather risky thing to do. Major example: when Minecraft changed combat mechanics. They're still trying to straighten that mess out.

That does not look like a castle to me, and every bit like "a squishy set of minimalist apartments."

Yeah I didn't think that was the best example to be honest. What about these though? (Not my builds by the way.)

 

[TubaVeganMason]

Now see that's an example. There hasn't been a real good explanation of what "overcrowed" means. Does it mean that an apartment/house needs X or more blocks of internal free space to not be consider crowded? Does it mean that an NPC considers himself crowded if his room shares a wall with another NPCs room? Does it mean that a NPC considers himself crowded if his room flag is set within X number of blocks say 5 or more other NPC flags?

There again we don't how close is too close for a disliked neighbor.
We're really in a vacuum of information where it counts. I think that's where all the confusion and stress is coming from. I'm certain 90% of it would go away if there was just a bit more clarity on the specifics of the mechanics.

The thing is that this arguably ends up being a genera change, if not for the whole game, then a major part of the game. I'm of the opinion that changing major game mechanics late into development is a rather risky thing to do. Major example: when Minecraft changed combat mechanics. They're still trying to straighten that mess out.


Yeah I didn't think that was the best example to be honest. What about these though? (Not my builds by the way.)
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Overcrowding will likely be based off of the first (and possibly third) example you said. I'd imagine an NPC would think that a 4 block wide 10 block tall room is rather crowded, and it's possible that NPCs having rooms all adjacent to eachother could count against that too. They can't just give away every single detail of the update or else it won't be as fun to discover when we start playing. We don't know how close a disliked neighbor is either, since just giving away the entire mechanic would ruin all the fun of figuring out how to use it.

When they said they're introducing a new Golfer NPC, you didn't see people complaining since they didn't also tell us the specifics of all the items that they sell. They got excited because "wow there's a new NPC that will be related to golfing!!" just like how this post intended for us to think "wow there's a new dynamic NPC mechanic that has a lot of depth to it!!"

They don't have to tell us every single detail of the new mechanic in their spoiler.

They have crafted one of the most perfect games in history over the past 9 years, there is literally zero way they could manage to mess it all up completely on the last update. Thinking that they could manage to mess up such a great idea of a mechanic is honestly disrespectful to the amount of work and love they have put into this game.

 

[ShadowTiger]

Possible idea:

Would it be okay to offset the negative happiness punishment just by having within eight tiles of the NPC's home an assortment of furniture of any type at all, minus platforms and torches?

I'm talking books, pianos, toilets, book-cases, candelabras or chandeliers (Because they're not trivial to make or place.) and paintings or banners. Theme doesn't matter at all.

Anything that makes the space more livable or friendly so they can indeed be crammed next to each other. If all people want is the negation of the higher expense of items, that shouldn't be too difficult to compromise on. It gives people an excuse to add some details to their "NPC Prisons" without sacrificing anything their play-style, and gives them an excuse to actually put down the stuff they collect from the world rather than just hoard them in chests.

 

[Ilmarinen]

When they said they're introducing a new Golfer NPC, you didn't see people complaining since they didn't also tell us the specifics of all the items that they sell. They got excited because "wow there's a new NPC that will be related to golfing!!" just like how this post intended for us to think "wow there's a new dynamic NPC mechanic that has a lot of depth to it!!"

Well golfing is like fishing or the Etherian invasion thing. You can completely ignore it if you want to since it's a side quest sort of thing. This is a change that fundamentally effects all NPCs and base building. That impacts everyone because so many core aspects of the game are gated behind NPCs

They don't have to tell us every single detail of the new mechanic in their spoiler.

Of course they don't. What they spoil or don't is entirely their prerogative. However they felt this was a big enough of a change that they needed a special reveal to explain it to everyone. But then they sort of left the explanation half done and that's allowed speculation and panic to run wild.

I really sort of feel bad for Leinfors because this has the potential to be an interesting mechanic, depending on the specifics of how it's implemented. I hope he's not feeling too down.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Overcrowding will likely be based off of the first (and possibly third) example you said. I'd imagine an NPC would think that a 4 block wide 10 block tall room is rather crowded, and it's possible that NPCs having rooms all adjacent to eachother could count against that too. They can't just give away every single detail of the update or else it won't be as fun to discover when we start playing.

But... it's not going to be "fun to discover when we start playing". Or at least, it's not going to be for some people.

Maybe you enjoy building a house, then checking a stat to see if it changed, then rebuilding it again if it didn't change. Maybe you enjoy doing experiments to find exactly how close is too close or how small is too small or whatever.

I do not.

But even if you do enjoy this kind of experimentation, it'll take maybe 30 minutes before you know exactly what the overcrowding rules are. And that knowledge will transfer over to each time you make a new map. So the "fun" here is quite limited even for people who enjoy it.

Me personally? I'll just read about it on the Terraria Wiki; I wasn't planning on starting to play 1.4 for a day or two anyway, just in case of an emergency patch due to a crippling bug (especially if it affects world conversion).

Personally, I enjoy digging underground and finding caches of minerals and loot. I enjoy exploring the vastness of the world, seeing its breadth. I enjoy carving out an area for my home and personal use, a place where everything is exactly where it ought to be to make my life in the game the easiest it can be. I enjoy exploration and personal expression.

This feature does not enhance any of the parts of the game I find enjoyable; it makes the parts of the game I find less enjoyable more prominent, but not in a way that's actually more interesting. It's just more busywork: Build a bigger, more empty base. Build mini-bases in other biomes. Build one-off houses in the nearest X biome so you can get a fast-travel Pylon. Etc.

This feature is not terrible; it's not going to ruin the game. It is merely an irritant, a feature that is needlessly annoying in some way. And quite frankly, Terraria has plenty of irritants; the designers didn't need to add more. That is what annoys me the most about it; there's no reason they couldn't have added fast travel without binding it to this irritant.

When they said they're introducing a new Golfer NPC, you didn't see people complaining since they didn't also tell us the specifics of all the items that they sell. They got excited because "wow there's a new NPC that will be related to golfing!!" just like how this post intended for us to think "wow there's a new dynamic NPC mechanic that has a lot of depth to it!!"

They don't have to tell us every single detail of the new mechanic in their spoiler.

The problem with your analogy is that you don't seem to understand the ramifications of the feature. If the Golfer NPC is worthless, if he doesn't sell anything interesting or if the golfing mini-game is as dull as fishing... so be it. It's not like the game is lacking in NPCs of limited value. If you want to ignore him because he doesn't provide anything you want, it amounts to nothing more than one additional box to build.

This feature is different because it affects our home, the place we build and curate over the course of the game. The safe place, the place where we should feel most comfortable.

The exact specifications of this mechanic will decide exactly how it will change the act of building our home. If someone came to your house with an excavator and said that they're going to dig up some stuff, don't you think that sounds a little... vague? Is it unreasonable to ask them to be a bit more specific about their treatment of the place you live?

 

[White_Shadow]

After having thought about it some more, my main issue with this feature is this: I feel like this is made to punish those people who build the 3x10 boxes to get NPCs really quickly at the start of a playthrough. But I never build those, and I am still being punished. A lot of people that actually put effort into their builds will be punished because, oops, this NPC doesn't like their neighbor, or this NPC wants to live in the jungle. If you can't provide an on/off switch, at least consider reworking the feature to be a tad more forgiving, so we can enjoy this game the way we want to, as we always have, instead of being forced to build houses in each biome to not have a price increase.

 

[Leinfors]

I really sort of feel bad for Leinfors because this has the potential to be an interesting mechanic, depending on the specifics of how it's implemented. I hope he's not feeling too down.

I don't feel down, promise.

 

[polly4705]

Some people in the comments: Guys its not a punishment... Just dont do the new thing and pay more for things... But not a punishment tho

Game devs: *call it a penalty*

The next person who complains is gonna get the penalty increased.

Hm. Well, that's validating.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, there's a difference between complaining and having legitimate questions & concerns about the new update. its a pretty huge shift from how the game is currently, so of course people are going to have questions...

 

[Demonides]

It's fantastic feature. Really.
But not with prices increase if we don't follow instructions how to play the sandbox game.
If they stayed as they are and only benefits would be given for certain playstyle, then it's ok.
But not with prices punishment because i want to build what i want, where i want, in the game that offers freedom of playstyle.

But i've only said my opinion, whatever it will be, will be. My voice isn't important.
Hopefully money won't matter in Hardmode.

 

[SagetheWise]

I've been thinking of this new mechanic overnight and I have a suggestion that I'd like to put forth.

Someone previously roughly compared the upcoming NPC Happiness mechanic to making friends in Stardew Valley. I believe that Terraria could gain massive benefits through progression and gameplay if Re-Logic follows a similar system. Doing so would also kill off the cruel NPC box houses, which is a win in my book.

How about if the player chooses to ignore all of these requirements for making their NPC's happy and puts them in environments that they don't find favorable, they refuse to sell/purchase items. In other words, if the NPC's are unhappy because they are in the incorrect biome, if they are near NPC's they don't like to interact with, etc., all NPC's that allow you to buy and sell from and to them will close up shop. The Goblin Tinkerer's reforge option will be locked, the Nurse's healing ability will be greyed out, etc.

I mean, if you were living in a small wooden box like 99% of players build for them, would you offer to trade? Absolutely not, you would demand your freedom.

I'm not asking for thoughts and opinions on this matter, I'm just putting this idea forth.

 

[Demonides]

I've been thinking of this new mechanic overnight and I have a suggestion that I'd like to put forth.

Someone previously roughly compared the upcoming NPC Happiness mechanic to making friends in Stardew Valley. I believe that Terraria could gain massive benefits through progression and gameplay if Re-Logic follows a similar system. Doing so would also kill off the cruel NPC box houses, which is a win in my book.

How about if the player chooses to ignore all of these requirements for making their NPC's happy and puts them in environments that they don't find favorable, they refuse to sell/purchase items. In other words, if the NPC's are unhappy because they are in the incorrect biome, if they are near NPC's they don't like to interact with, etc., all NPC's that allow you to buy and sell from and to them will close up shop. The Goblin Tinkerer's reforge option will be locked, the Nurse's healing ability will be greyed out, etc.

I mean, if you were living in a small wooden box like 99% of players build for them, would you offer to trade? Absolutely not, you would demand your freedom.

I'm not asking for thoughts and opinions on this matter, I'm just putting this idea forth.

This is a very nice idea but to even be considered to happen, it needs to wait for another update, as everything is basically decided.

The problem is that they didn't ask players for opinions about potentially controversial changes beforehand, but revealed it 2 weeks before launch.
"Here you go, if you like to build you will get rewards, if you don't we will make you pay more, have fun".
That's not how it should be.

 

[TubaVeganMason]

Some people just can't seem to handle a nice fun balancing feature I guess. Why should you be able to satisfy an NPC entirely with a cookie cutter wooden box? Why should an NPC sell you valuable items if you're just going to treat them like garbage?

Y'all don't deserve NPCs if you really think so lowly of them that as soon as they're given very simple-to-satisfy preferences, you riot over it. It's literally so simple to nullify the price reduction through simple build planning. The only way to get the penalty is to make a crammed box hut all in one biome with NPCs not being placed next to NPCs that they enjoy. if you don't do that, you're fine. It's not like the game says "Build Khaios style or pay 2000000 platinum coins for an angel statue" it says "hey don't treat your NPCs like objects and instead act as if they're actual people since that's what they're meant to be" and suddenly people are getting mad since "i cant build muh wooden platform npc prison!!1!11!1 this game sucks!1!!"

Nerfs exist for a reason, and this one is to nerf how easy it is to use the valuables that NPCs provide you with. It isn't even hard to satisfy NPCs enough for them to have regular prices. If you guys would read the post and process how it says that this feature has NOTHING to do with your skill in building then you'd see how practically nothing is changed. If you 're not a builder and want convenient access to NPCs, just put a NPC prison at each of the pylons with the respective NPCs in the right biomes and you'll have the price reduction gone. If you are a builder and want to make a cool looking base with all the NPCs, just place them by people they like and don't cram them together. It's not that hard, people.

 

[TubaVeganMason]

"Here you go, if you like to build you will get rewards, if you don't we will make you pay more, have fun".
That's not how it should be.

It's not "if you don't like building we'll make you pay more", it's "if you don't like building, just make your NPC prisons that you'd normally build all in one spot instead separated across the map with easy convenient access through pylons and you'll have regular prices" which sure, takes an additional few minutes of work since you have to maneuver over to said biomes and build houses there instead, but not only will you likely get a decreased price since NPCs who like one biome will likely like other NPCs who like that biome, but you'll also have convenient access to nearly your entire world surface within seconds for the rest of your entire playthrough right from the beginning.

 

[SagetheWise]

Some people just can't seem to handle a nice fun balancing feature I guess. Why should you be able to satisfy an NPC entirely with a cookie cutter wooden box? Why should an NPC sell you valuable items if you're just going to treat them like garbage?

Y'all don't deserve NPCs if you really think so lowly of them that as soon as they're given very simple-to-satisfy preferences, you riot over it. It's literally so simple to nullify the price reduction through simple build planning. The only way to get the penalty is to make a crammed box hut all in one biome with NPCs not being placed next to NPCs that they enjoy. if you don't do that, you're fine. It's not like the game says "Build Khaios style or pay 2000000 platinum coins for an angel statue" it says "hey don't treat your NPCs like objects and instead act as if they're actual people since that's what they're meant to be" and suddenly people are getting mad since "i cant build muh wooden platform npc prison!!1!11!1 this game sucks!1!!"

Nerfs exist for a reason, and this one is to nerf how easy it is to use the valuables that NPCs provide you with. It isn't even hard to satisfy NPCs enough for them to have regular prices. If you guys would read the post and process how it says that this feature has NOTHING to do with your skill in building then you'd see how practically nothing is changed. If you 're not a builder and want convenient access to NPCs, just put a NPC prison at each of the pylons with the respective NPCs in the right biomes and you'll have the price reduction gone. If you are a builder and want to make a cool looking base with all the NPCs, just place them by people they like and don't cram them together. It's not that hard, people.

Exactly! Hence why I suggested why if all the requirements are not met for NPC happiness, their trade windows should be totally locked. One requirement is met, their trade window opens with increased prices. 2 requirements are met, and the prices are default. The final requirement(s) are met, and they sell at decreased prices and Pylons are unlocked. This would be the final (needed) nail in the coffin for box houses.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Some people just can't seem to handle a nice fun balancing feature I guess.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Other people are arguing that it isn't "a nice fun balancing feature". And those arguments tend to have reasons attached as to why they feel that way. So you continuing to declare that it is "a nice fun balancing feature" isn't a coherent argument in its favor.

It would be really great if you would argue the points other people are making rather than simply dismissing them.

 

[TubaVeganMason]

Exactly! Hence why I suggested why if all the requirements are not meant for NPC happiness, their trade windows should be totally locked. One requirement is met, their trade window opens with increased prices. 2 requirements are met, and the prices are default. The final requirement(s) are met, and they sell at decreased prices and Pylons are unlocked. This would be the final (needed) nail in the coffin for box houses.

I put forth a similar idea previously. I believe your idea is just a tad bit too strict though, a much more lenient and enjoyable one that still has balance would be
0 requirements: Increased prices
1 requirement: Normal prices
2 requirements: Decreased prices
3 requirements: Unlocked pylon
I predict that's what the system is going to be, and it makes the most sense. I don't see ReLogic making box housing impossible, just a bit unpreferable.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Exactly! Hence why I suggested why if all the requirements are not met for NPC happiness, their trade windows should be totally locked.

The only reason NPCs exist is to allow you to buy/sell stuff. If they're not doing that, then they don't need to have houses to begin with. A mechanic where you build a house for an NPC, but the NPC arbitrarily refuses to do the thing that you built the house for them to do is kind of silly.

Doubly so since you cannot determine which NPCs spawn initially; they spawn when their conditions are met.

 

[TubaVeganMason]

Nowhere in the post does it ever say that you would only need to do one of these things to not get price hikes. The only thing the post goes over is what things affect NPC happiness, it never goes into the nuances of what specific benefits or detriments you get for specific amount of happiness are. We don't know for sure if we can just build slightly more spaced out rooms in typical all-in-one houses and be fine. Just like everyone else, all your points are based on assumptions. No one knows for sure how the mechanic is truly going to work in practice but the devs, and they aren't telling us.

For me the problem isn't evenabout "building good", it's about how the various restrictions such as biome and neighbor requirements to get the most out of NPCs limits where you can build and thus limits what kinds of builds you can make. This would actually lead to less creativity and variety in builds over all.

Yes it does not say in the post the exact requirements, but this is RELOGIC we're talking about. The people who made the masterpiece of Terraria. Why on Earth would they make a horribly strict building system right on their final update?

The 3 requirements line up perfectly with having 4 possible NPC states.
0 requirements: Increased prices
1 requirement: Default prices
2 requirements: Decreased prices
3 requirements: Obtain pylon

This is by far the most likely way it's been set up, or at least the most similar. Yes it's an assumption, but it's coming from somebody who has played this game for over 4000 hours and understands how everything in the game works. ReLogic would not do something like requiring 2/3 of those requirements simply to have normal prices. You guys are being very disrespectful in assuming the worst out of a game that has had love poured into it for the last 9 years.