tModLoader Experience and Classes

[updatedude]

Jesus christ you've been busy. While I agree that the EXP bonuses can definitely be improved, and the curve there looks pretty good, keep in mind that the mod is already very close to completely overpowered.

As I've said in my previous post, I've been playing the summoner class in my playthrough. I just went into hardmode, and am level 17 with the tier 3 minion class. That increases my minion count by 1 and minion damage by 85%. It completely changes the game.

Granted, I'm fine with how good the accesory can be right now (also because I have mods making the game harder, like prefixes for enemies), but making it even easier to level up would just destroy the game completely. I personally feel that it could be toned down a little bit already, let alone when levels are getting easier to acquire.

But apparently there's also people that see it completely the other way around, so I'm not sure if I'm the minority or not.

As for the shields + icons, I have to agree that they don't really fit. I could try and whip up a larger square shield with rounded borders so the icons would fit better (and using the "old" borders you're using now as a boundary box so to speak), which might make it a little better. It probably also helps actually picking a color for the icons and putting some shadows under them (duplicate icon, move 1 pixel down, set transparency to 0.1 or something).

I'm personally fine with it because we can simply adjust the rate of experience gain anyway. Or even outright set our experience.

My view is that it's easy to make the mod weaker for those who don't want too much gain, even if the mod itself offers a lot of gains, because you can control how little you get. But for those who want to be OP, lowering the mod's gains means they won't have that option.

The mod can satisfy everyone by allowing the option to be OP, or it can satisfy just the players who only want a small advantage. I think the former makes more sense than the latter. But that's me. I might very well be in the minority.

 

[Saerus]

Jesus christ you've been busy. While I agree that the EXP bonuses can definitely be improved, and the curve there looks pretty good, keep in mind that the mod is already very close to completely overpowered.

As I've said in my previous post, I've been playing the summoner class in my playthrough. I just went into hardmode, and am level 17 with the tier 3 minion class. That increases my minion count by 1 and minion damage by 85%. It completely changes the game.

Granted, I'm fine with how good the accesory can be right now (also because I have mods making the game harder, like prefixes for enemies), but making it even easier to level up would just destroy the game completely. I personally feel that it could be toned down a little bit already, let alone when levels are getting easier to acquire.

But apparently there's also people that see it completely the other way around, so I'm not sure if I'm the minority or not.

As for the shields + icons, I have to agree that they don't really fit. I could try and whip up a larger square shield with rounded borders so the icons would fit better (and using the "old" borders you're using now as a boundary box so to speak), which might make it a little better. It probably also helps actually picking a color for the icons and putting some shadows under them (duplicate icon, move 1 pixel down, set transparency to 0.1 or something).

If anybody wants to have a go at the sprites, feel free. I have attached the current sprites.

If possible, keep the filenames as they are so that I don't have to rename everything.

I'm personally fine with it because we can simply adjust the rate of experience gain anyway. Or even outright set our experience.

My view is that it's easy to make the mod weaker for those who don't want too much gain, even if the mod itself offers a lot of gains, because you can control how little you get. But for those who want to be OP, lowering the mod's gains means they won't have that option.

The mod can satisfy everyone by allowing the option to be OP, or it can satisfy just the players who only want a small advantage. I think the former makes more sense than the latter. But that's me. I might very well be in the minority.

With the new "max" level of 100, all bonuses will be cut down to around 1/4 because the current "max" is somewhere around 25.

For those who want power, the new technical max level is 3000 (more than 4 times the old) so you can actually be stronger than ever if you want.

I love the new symbols.

AND IMO the chicken one is REALLY funny. I think it fits the novice perfectly, lol.

I like it too

 

[leqesai]

With the new "max" level of 100, all bonuses will be cut down to around 1/4 because the current "max" is somewhere around 25.

For those who want power, the new technical max level is 3000 (more than 4 times the old) so you can actually be stronger than ever if you want.

I like it too

Wait.... so the new max level will be 100, and the current boosts will be 1/4 what they currently are to compensate?
Why even make the max level any different if the stat gains are going to be reduced so much?

In the new system does getting to level 100 require the same amount of experience as getting to 25 in the old system? Because if it requires more experience then it doesn't make sense to have the level 25 equivalent bonuses since it takes longer to get there. I would look at the XP graph and make the progression match whatever you'd normally get with the amount of XP required in both systems.

I'm not sure if that makes sense....

If going from level 1 to 25 in the old system takes 100 experience

and going from level 1 to 100 in the new system takes 1000 experience

then whatever level you'd be at when you have 100 experience, in the new system, should match up, bonus-wise, with 100 experience in the old system.

Does that make sense?
Otherwise I don't really understand how this change is beneficial other than displaying a higher level number, overall.

 

[Saerus]

Wait.... so the new max level will be 100, and the current boosts will be 1/4 what they currently are to compensate?
Why even make the max level any different if the stat gains are going to be reduced so much?

In the new system does getting to level 100 require the same amount of experience as getting to 25 in the old system? Because if it requires more experience then it doesn't make sense to have the level 25 equivalent bonuses since it takes longer to get there. I would look at the XP graph and make the progression match whatever you'd normally get with the amount of XP required in both systems.

I'm not sure if that makes sense....

If going from level 1 to 25 in the old system takes 100 experience

and going from level 1 to 100 in the new system takes 1000 experience

then whatever level you'd be at when you have 100 experience, in the new system, should match up, bonus-wise, with 100 experience in the old system.

Does that make sense?
Otherwise I don't really understand how this change is beneficial other than displaying a higher level number, overall.

The goal is to:
1. Display higher numbers towards late game so that it feels like you have accomplished something (90 is more satisfying than 30, no?)
2. Alleviate the currently insane death penalty (you can lose up to 10% of experience towards the next level and the levels are quite large)

The final curve might end up being closer to old level 30 = new level 100. I'm still crunching numbers to gauge around how much experience the average user might earn in a playthrough.

With this change, I am aiming to either maintain the current amount of power or perhaps slightly reduce it.

@aMannus I think that both of the tier 3 minion classes are on the strong side. I will probably give the Minion Master a damage penalty to make up for the huge number of minions (up to +12 total). This will allow me to cut the Soul Binder's damage a bit.

 

[Avarlia]

I like those sprites, good work =) and your new profile pic too! Let's see what will happen in the future...

 

[Saerus]

Novice (Tier I)
Available as soon as you have a worktable.

First Job Advancement (Tier I -> Tier II)
Old: level 5 (1,600 experience)
New: level 10 (1,500 experience)

Second Job Advancement (Tier II -> Tier III)
Old: level 15 (1,600 + 70,916 = 72,545 experience)
New: level 25 (1,500 + 71,799 = 73,299 experience)

High Level
Old: level 25 (1,600 + 70,916 + 3,943,834 = 4,016,350 experience)
New: level 65 (1,500 + 71,799 + 4,185,824 = 4,259,123 experience)

Extreme Level (Endgame Grind)
Old: level 28 (1,600 + 70,916 + 13,304,285 = 13,376,801 experience)
New: level 95 (1,500 + 71,799 + 13,396,436 = 13,469,735 experience)

New Curve (total to reach each level):

And for reference, here's the old curve (total to reach each level):

If we look at the experience required for each level (not total) in the new curve, we can see some fast early levels, a rapid increase to coincide with certain bosses becoming more farmable (high yield), and then a gradual increase for as far as you wish to go.

With these levels in mind, cutting current bonuses to 1/4 seems reasonable. Most unlocked bonuses will occur in levels 1-65 with just a few top-notch unlocks after that. This will give a slight nerf to all classes relative to the present build.

Does this seem reasonable?

 

[leqesai]

Seeing the numbers it looks pretty reasonable. I'm not quite to the wall of flesh and am level 8 with the rank 2 summoner class. Dunno if that is helpful... lol

 

[Saerus]

Seeing the numbers it looks pretty reasonable. I'm not quite to the wall of flesh and am level 8 with the rank 2 summoner class. Dunno if that is helpful... lol

Hmm. That would put you at level 15 in the new system. If bonuses are cut to 1/4, then you would have half of your current bonuses. Do you feel overpowered at the moment?

 

[leqesai]

Hmm. That would put you at level 15 in the new system. If bonuses are cut to 1/4, then you would have half of your current bonuses. Do you feel overpowered at the moment?

I have 1 extra minion and pretty negligible secondary bonuses. 12% minion damage and 8 health and mana.

I don't feel that the bonuses really make a huge difference, right now. I mean... 8 health and mana is nice. The 12% minion damage is nice, and the 1 extra minion is nice... but I don't really feel overpowered at all. If this was 6% damage and 4 health + mana (would I still have an extra minion??) it would definitely not feel like its making much of a difference.

Maybe the solution isn't to cut by 1/4 but maybe by 1/6? or 1/8? that way it scales better at the lower levels and ends up with a relatively small boost, by the time you hit 100?
[doublepost=1483389251,1483389097][/doublepost]

I have 1 extra minion and pretty negligible secondary bonuses. 12% minion damage and 8 health and mana.

I don't feel that the bonuses really make a huge difference, right now. I mean... 8 health and mana is nice. The 12% minion damage is nice, and the 1 extra minion is nice... but I don't really feel overpowered at all. If this was 6% damage and 4 health + mana (would I still have an extra minion??) it would definitely not feel like its making much of a difference.

Maybe the solution isn't to cut by 1/4 but maybe by 1/6? or 1/8? that way it scales better at the lower levels and ends up with a relatively small boost, by the time you hit 100?

Err I meant instead of a 75% reduction, go to a 50%, 33%, or 25% reduction.

 

[Saerus]

I have 1 extra minion and pretty negligible secondary bonuses. 12% minion damage and 8 health and mana.

I don't feel that the bonuses really make a huge difference, right now. I mean... 8 health and mana is nice. The 12% minion damage is nice, and the 1 extra minion is nice... but I don't really feel overpowered at all. If this was 6% damage and 4 health + mana (would I still have an extra minion??) it would definitely not feel like its making much of a difference.

Maybe the solution isn't to cut by 1/4 but maybe by 1/6? or 1/8? that way it scales better at the lower levels and ends up with a relatively small boost, by the time you hit 100?
[doublepost=1483389251,1483389097][/doublepost]

Err I meant instead of a 75% reduction, go to a 50%, 33%, or 25% reduction.

The more I look into it, the more it's becoming apparent that I should be looking at "High Level" (old 25) and not "Extreme Level" (old 28-29). Consequently, cutting bonuses in half (instead of quarters) should do the trick. In your case, you would have nearly unchanged stats.

 

[leqesai]

woo!

 

[Saerus]

The new version should be up in an hour. Maybe two. Or three.

Here's a little teaser of the updated class tree.

How do we feel about using these colours in-game?

 

[leqesai]

I think they look pretty cool. Definitely makes it a lot easier to see the image, when there is a color background.

 

[Dragonwep]

Maybe make green a little brighter? it looks like tan or non-green

 

[Saerus]

@aMannus

Re Minion Balance:
I have rebalanced the two advanced minion classes based around typical endgame gear (10 minions and 150% minion damage).

These values are post-experience curve change.

Minion Master:

• raised cap on # of minions to 15 (+2 more from flat bonus) = 27 total (28 with potion)
• 0.15 more minions per levels so +15 is not possible until level 100
• introduced penalty of 1% minion damage per bonus minion (so up to a 15% penalty)
• no more minion damage bonus
• life/defense is low, but sheer number of minions adds survivability
• overall damage will generally be a touch higher than Soul Binder at low levels

Soul Binder:

• no longer gains any bonus minions whatsoever
• bonus damage dropped from 5% to 3%, and then cut down to 1.5% with the new experience curve
• with fewer minions, the SB relies on their slightly higher life/defense for survivability
• endgame damage potential is very slightly higher than Minion Master

The distinction isn't really damage vs defense. The overall damage is quite close. SB has more defense, but MM has survivability through sheer numbers. If I have done this right, then they are equally powerful (though weaker than before) and offer two different playstyles.

A thought:
Should the Soul Binder (or a new class) limit the number of minions to 1, but offer a large boost for each minion lost this way? Would a class with one super minion be fun to play?

 

[NeoPhantom]

I like how they look now quite a bit. How about giving the background a parchment-like tint as well? That way they look like ancient certificates or documents of some sort!

 

[Saerus]

Thanks for the feedback on the new look, everyone! I'll keep them as they are for v0.5.0 and tweak them a little later. I like the parchment idea, @NeoPhantom .

 

[leqesai]

The idea of limiting the number of minions to 1 is very interesting. Are you suggesting that, with this class, the number of minions (even with extra minion gear) would stay at 1?

If so, are you also suggesting that you can boost the damage of the one minion proportionate to the amount of total minions you would be getting from gear?

EDIT:

I forgot to mention that this is a really cool sounding idea, and I think this sort of thinking is what all the classes deserve. Something that might fundamentally change how you play, to emphasize the strengths of the class and promote a very specific type of play based on that class.

 

[Saerus]

The idea of limiting the number of minions to 1 is very interesting. Are you suggesting that, with this class, the number of minions (even with extra minion gear) would stay at 1?

If so, are you also suggesting that you can boost the damage of the one minion proportionate to the amount of total minions you would be getting from gear?

Yes, exactly. It is an interesting thought, but I'm not sure if it would actually be fun to play.

 

[leqesai]

Yes, exactly. It is an interesting thought, but I'm not sure if it would actually be fun to play.

Oh it would be fun to play.

OH IT WOULD!

I'm imagining one tiny, but badass, space dragon... lol
Or one small, inconspicuous raven that has DPS for days.