Game Mechanics Fixing Melee

[neoselket]

This is version V2 which is the result of community feedback and 1.3 changes.

Right now, melee sucks. Why? because it's essentially like ranged or magic, except it's projectiles don't cost mana or ammunition and it gets WAY more defense than the other classes. this is my suggestion to fix that.

I'm going to seperate this into sections for ease of whatever.


Mechanics

So first off, the initial problem is that in hardmode, most enemies are resistant or immune to knockback. In earlygame, if you have a decent knockback weapon, like an iron sword, you can fend off zombies. However, even with a weapon that has insane knockback, some enemies are completely immune to knockback. My suggestion? Add knockback penetration.
Knockback penetration(KP) is how much knockback resistance a weapon will ignore. for instance, if you have a weapon with 50% KP and an enemy with 60% KR(knockback resistance), the KR will be reduced by 50%, down to 30%. Also, the titan glove and upgrades would not increase knockback itself, but knockback piercing.
Another problem is that with swords, they swing in whatever direction you're facing. this makes it very difficult to attack while fleeing.

My idea is that swords will swing in whatever direction the cursor is, so if the cursor is to the right of the player, the sword will swing to the right, and vice versa.
The Flairon is another problem. The main use is it's projectiles, but they home and deal tons of damage, making the Flairon phenomenally easy to use while devastating enemies. I suggest turning it into a true flail, making it drop to the player's feet when it retracts and requiring the player to click to use it again. Next, it would only shoot homing bubbles every 1/10th of a second as opposed to 1/20. also, the bubbles would only do 60% of the main damage.

Boomerangs would be classified as ranged or throwing, Except for the Paladin's Hammer, which works like a very fast flail. Also, projectiles shot by weapons deal the base unmodified damage of the weapon, and cannot be boosted by melee damage bonuses. Only generic damage bonuses will work, such as the Avenger Emblem.


Weapons

Another problem is that many good melee weapons don't have proper upgrades. For instance, the best spear in the game is the north pole(or obsidian swordfish, but that kind of sucks), which shoots tons of projectiles. Not very melee-ish.

Flails

Mace
10 melee damage
crafted with 10 iron and 3 chains at an anvil

Adamantite/Titanium Mace
60 melee damage
14% critical strike chance

Fury Flail(from my fury armor suggestion)
100 melee damage
crafted with 13 Fury bars at a mythril anvil

Spears

Spear
8 melee damage
Crafted with 3 iron bars and 7 wood at an anvil

Shadow Point
15 melee damage
Crafted with 14 demonite bars and 10 shadow scales at an anvil

Death's Spine
80 melee damage
10% critical strike chance
Crafted with 20 demonite bars and 20 chlorophyte bars at a mythril anvil or dropped by a corrupt mimic.

Crimspear
80 melee damage
10% critical strike chance
Crafted with 20 crimtane bars and 20 chlorophyte bars at a mythril anvil or dropped by a crimson mimic

Fury Glaive
90 melee damage
10% critical strike chance
very weak knockback
Crafted with 15 fury bars at a mythril anvil
100% KP

Luminite Spear
100 melee damage
25% critical strike chance
Crafted with 20 luminite bars at an ancient manipulator


Swords

Fury Katana
80 melee damage
30% critical strike chance
Very fast speed(use time 18)
100% KP

Floratana
70 melee damage
8% critical strike chance
very fast speed(use time 17)
very weak knockback
dropped by jungle mimic
100% KP

Harbringer
120 melee damage
10% critical strike chance
very slow speed (37 use time)
strong knockback
crafted from breaker blade and fury sword
40% KP

Fury Blade
100 melee damage
4% critical strike chance
fast speed (use time 26)
crafted with 11 fury bars at a mythril anvil

True Fury Blade
150 melee damage
4% critical strike chance
very fast speed (use time 20)
crafted with a fury blade and a broken hero sword at a mythril anvil

 

[LoveSpreader]

You know, with this, I probably wouldn't bother picking up another melee weapon, except in early game. And giving bosses knockback, even for just melee? Just hold a spear to BoC and see how easy it dies.

Most of these nerfs would drop melee's DPS potential by quite a bit compared to other weapons of the same tier.

By the way, changing the damage mechanic of the melee biome weapon was not a smart move. Now the chest weapons are even more unbalanced.

Also, no matter how much you buff these fixed melee weapons, Duke Fishron and Ice Queen will absolutely make you cry.

And lastly, I like melee as it is now. No support.

 

[neoselket]

You know, with this, I probably wouldn't bother picking up another melee weapon, except in early game. And giving bosses knockback, even for just melee? Just hold a spear to BoC and see how easy it dies.

Most of these nerfs would drop melee's DPS potential by quite a bit compared to other weapons of the same tier.

By the way, changing the damage mechanic of the melee biome weapon was not a smart move. Now the chest weapons are even more unbalanced.

Also, no matter how much you buff these fixed melee weapons, Duke Fishron and Ice Queen will absolutely make you cry.

And lastly, I like melee as it is now. No support.

how would this make melee lose DPS?? and i changed the scourge of the corruptor because it's not melee. and if you can block projectiles and deal knockback, projectiles will not hit you as much, and and the knockback will help you keep bosses away. i don't understand how this would make things worse.

 

[TerrestrialTortoise]

how would this make melee lose DPS?? and i changed the scourge of the corruptor because it's not melee. and if you can block projectiles and deal knockback, projectiles will not hit you as much, and and the knockback will help you keep bosses away. i don't understand how this would make things worse.

Melee would do less DPS as all projectile damage will become magic, and all throwing weapons would become ranged. You also proposed nerfs to the most-used endgame melee weapons, with losing the autoswing on the TB and reducing the Flairon's bubbles.
I don't support this, as this removes a large portion of melee weapons from the game, as well as reducing the overall potency of the remaining weapons. The KRR does provide a small buff, but this only really allows some bosses to be cheesed more easily, and I don't see this being added to the game due to that.
The bullet-proof vest also works for rangers and mages, so it doesn't really help out "melee" characters as much as just generally helping everyone. And it's not like people using melee gear need more protection, with melee armour having the most defense and generaly allowing face-tanking of most things.
Sorry, but no support.

 

[Gotcha!]

"Fixing Melee"? I wasn't aware it's broken. On the contrary, I am completely certain that it's working like intended.

 

[LoveSpreader]

how would this make melee lose DPS??

Terra Blade, a.k.a laser machinegun, the True Night's Edge and True Excalibur would shoot beams slower

Melee weapon beams would do magic damage,

The Terra Blade would also no longer autoswing, and it would swing slower

so basically, the Terra Blade, the True Night's Edge, and the True Excalibur would be nerfed to their capability in 1.2.2

flairon would shoot bubbles WAY slower

bubbles would do magic damage

also cease to shoot bubbles when the initial swing

So... that gave you any idea on how DPS is lowered? I know you got your blood high-strung with someone opposing you suggestion, because I do too when it happens, but forgetting things in your main post? No no. And if you don't see how those would affect DPS, I wonder if you really thought this through.

With all that, the only way for your melee to reach the same DPS as they did before is probably by boosting their damage by double, possibly more.

Boomerangs and other ranged weapons would be classified as ranged or magic, depending on what they most closely resemble.

scourge of the corruptor because it's not melee

In your opinion. I'd say all thrown weapons are melee. And funnily enough, the game coding agrees. Well, I suppose I can understand the desire to stick it to the man.

I'd love to see you handle these with low damage projectiles, by the way. Or possibly with no projectiles at all.

I know I won't be doing it with your melee.

i don't understand how this would make things worse.

You're nerfing melee just so you could be a "melee purist", and these changes would make me not play end-game melee for reasons mentioned. You see a problem with the current melee, I don't. You think these changes are for better, I don't.

 

[Kyouko Tsukino]

This game was never meant to be played while stubbornly focusing on one single damage type (often called "class" which is as much of a misnomer as calling Terraria "2D Minecraft.") Hence, it's a player-made choice. And frankly, 2D platformers were rarely, if ever, games meant to have melee to begin with.

This is yet again, a case of "not broken, don't fix by ramming it with a sledgehammer."

 

[Alabaster]

I have played Magicite, which has a melee which works because the enemies are slower and the swords deal far more damage, making them viable, if a little dangerous (many skills in game correct that). However, most enemies and bosses in Terraria lategame have powerful projectiles. This makes the game more interesting with infernos, bouncy beams and other projectiles. To make melee viable we would have to remove that, and it would make the game less enjoyable. And also, where is the skill in clicking a sword? You don't even need to aim. Melee is a lot more interesting as it is now.

tl;dr projectiles make things interesting and a little more difficult with enemies.

 

[neoselket]

ok, the main problem with melee as it is now is that it's NOT MELEE. it's RANGED. boomerangs are not melee. neither are throwing knives or homing eaters or homing bubbles or any of that stuff. that does not make sense. andbefore you say "it's a game, it doesn't need to make sense" think about this. if nothing needed to make sense in terraria, then why not add 50 dirt to the crafting recipe of the terra blade? terraria doesn't need to make sense, right?

also, as it is, melee is grossly overpowered. there's a reason ranged weapons use ammo and magic weapons use mana, to balance out the projectiles. melee has not only free to use projectiles, but the highest defense in the game. yes, that is overpowered. people make the argument that melee needs to get close to enemies, and yet we have the flairon which is capable of annihilating an enemy that isn't even on the screen.

yes, melee would lose some DPS, but when it easily achieves several thousand DPS with barely any effort(beetle armor+flairon) and it shoots projectiles at enemies, that's obviously overpowered. there's kind of an actual reason why weapons that shoot projectiles are called ranged weapons. and the scourge of the corruptor? that's not even ranged, as i don't see a gun that shoots the projectile, so that's actually more akin to magic than any other class type.

what if there was a bow that took mana and dealt melee damage? that would make no sense. to put it clearly, i'm fine with a few projectiles. the starfury, for example. they nerfed it because it was OP, and now the terra blade is even worse than it, especially since the aim is better, it deals more damage, and it doesn't even take mana. the original starfury is comparable to the new terra blade, the new starfury is comparable to the original terra blade. when the main focus of a weapon is projectiles, it's either ranged or magic.

oh, and some people that might enjoy this thread: @Haloboy01134 @Dunbar-the-Red

 

[Sigma90]

Threads with "Fixing X" kind of annoy me, because it implies "X" is broken. It rarely is; it's usually just used as a pretext to a complaint. If you're trying to fix something, shouldn't it go in the Bug Reports forum? But I digress.

The way I see it:

• Ranged: Uses ammo
• Magic: Uses mana
• Melee: Requires nothing aside from the weapon itself

Based on a literal definition of "range", yes, things like boomerangs, Vampire Knives and Flairon may well be considered "ranged". But I don't think the developers intended distance to separate the 'classes'; just how the weapons are used.

I don't support the removal of autoswing from Terra Blade, nor making it slower. I prefer auto-swing so I'm not going click-click-click-click-click to attack enemies. (I don't use the Terra Blade on bosses anyway; I use Vampire Knives.)

I also decided to make some melee weapons be able to block projectiles.

This list seems arbitrary; I don't see what these weapons have in common or what makes them special.

 

[Nobody Important]

Bosses are immune to knockback for a reason. A method of bypassing that would allow you to essentially stun lock the boss for a kill that is not even a challenge.

As for the other reasons I won't bother repeating as they already have been stated, thanks people you saved me the time of doing so.

 

[neoselket]

Bosses are immune to knockback for a reason. A method of bypassing that would allow you to essentially stun lock the boss for a kill that is not even a challenge.

As for the other reasons I won't bother repeating as they already have been stated, thanks people you saved me the time of doing so.

they only take knockback from melee weapons, and only some of them.

I don't support the removal of autoswing from Terra Blade, nor making it slower. I prefer auto-swing so I'm not going click-click-click-click-click to attack enemies. (I don't use the Terra Blade on bosses anyway; I use Vampire Knives.)


This list seems arbitrary; I don't see what these weapons have in common or what makes them special.

the reason i removed autoswing from the terra blade was because it shoots a projectile, and it needs something to balance that out. and as for the weapons that block projectiles, they're weapons that i feel need a buff and are largely ignored currently.

 

[Nobody Important]

they only take knockback from melee weapons, and only some of them.

My point still stands. As long as they've been stun locked they are no threat unless you have to occupy the same space as them while using the weapon.

 

[FlakMaster]

I have played Magicite, which has a melee which works because the enemies are slower and the swords deal far more damage, making them viable, if a little dangerous (many skills in game correct that).

Except in Magicite, Ranged is god mode because you can do the same, if not more with clever use of the Ranged skills, damage without the risk of taking damage at all.

ok, the main problem with melee as it is now is that it's NOT MELEE. it's RANGED.

Logically speaking, anything that needs force applied to it, and becomes deadlier if the user of the weapon can apply more force through better strength, can be considered melee. It's borderline melee-ranged, so it can be considered either. So, that includes boomerangs, throwing knives, shurikens and so on.

The turf of Ranged weapons is when the user is not controlling the projectiles that is being shot, rather just the weapon that shoots the projectiles. Therefore, the only thing they can do is aim. Granted, in some cases you still need to be strong to withstand the tension from pulling and holding a bow string back, or to not have broken bones from the recoil of firearms (then again, no bullet weapon in Terraria can even come close to comparing to the conventional firearms of today).

But the main problem that 'Melee has no place in the projectile spam-fest of later game' just cannot be fixed easily in this game. Complex things such as 'alternate fire' sounds like something that would already be implemented into the game if it were possible or simple enough. Therefore, I doubt there will be any considerable changes ever to come to Melee in Vanilla Terraria, so you'll have to make-do with having magic projectiles while also retaining the benefit of super-high defence.

Maybe in Terraria: Otherworld or the next Terraria game by Relogic can Melee be repurposed/redefined. I just think it's way too late to change it in the current Terraria now.

 

[Varsia]

You called?
Alright, let's look.
Firstly, the knockback resistance resistance thing. Kinda seems a bit strange that enemies with knockback resistance end up completely forfeiting that knockback resistance? Surely doing that'd be basically making enemies designed to not be stun-locked (bosses come to mind) to be stun-locked, which removes a ton of challenge. It's a broken concept.
That flairon true-flail thing, I can back. If the bubbles needed mana to be used, that would make sense. Kinda like a pre-1.2 starfury except you can keep swinging it even after the mana has run out. That sounds good, I like it.
Although we could use the same logic for the True weapons. It seems to make the most sense with regards to melee projectiles. they would also deal magic damage.
I can back the sword swinging independently of character direction, too.
Blocking projectiles: No.
There are projectiles that can already be taken outta the sky, and I'm pretty sure those are the only ones intended to be taken outta the sky.

...and that's all.

 

[neoselket]

Firstly, the knockback resistance resistance thing. Kinda seems a bit strange that enemies with knockback resistance end up completely forfeiting that knockback resistance? Surely doing that'd be basically making enemies designed to not be stun-locked (bosses come to mind) to be stun-locked, which removes a ton of challenge. It's a broken concept.

it's only melee weapons that have knockback piercing, and even then they don't have much knockback. you'd have to attack while backing up, and even then you'd take some damage. and they'd still be able to hurt you or shoot projectiles at you. but thanks for your feedback!

 

[Varsia]

it's only melee weapons that have knockback piercing, and even then they don't have much knockback. you'd have to attack while backing up, and even then you'd take some damage. and they'd still be able to hurt you or shoot projectiles at you. but thanks for your feedback!

Yeah, but the projectile blocking will stop the projectiles.
And, also, why would you take damage when backing up? You got speed, friend.
And, you would still be able to stun-lock.
And, it kind of ruins the point of knockback immunity if you can just hit 'em away from a great distance using the Breaker Blade or some other long-reaching melee weapon?
Also, even 5% knockback piercing is going to make quite a difference with any weapon that deals enough knockback to be of note.

 

[Nobody Important]

I realized that you have failed to prove that melee is broken. Sure they don't require anything else for a projectile but ammo is cheap and with skillful play you shouldn't run out of mana frequently.

Also you totally unbalanced the whole biome weapon thing. Just thought I would bring that up.

 

[neoselket]

I realized that you have failed to prove that melee is broken. Sure they don't require anything else for a projectile but ammo is cheap and with skillful play you shouldn't run out of mana frequently.

Also you totally unbalanced the whole biome weapon thing. Just thought I would bring that up.

1. melee has the highest defense, so being able to attack at range like the other classes while still having high defense to mitigate the damage you do take is ridiculous.

2. how is it unbalanced?

 

[Nobody Important]

2. how is it unbalanced?

Melee has 0 biome weapons now.

1. melee has the highest defense, so being able to attack at range like the other classes while still having high defense to mitigate the damage you do take is ridiculous.

And the other classes also can strike from a distance and they cause more damage. With magic you have infinitely piercing long range weapons and with ranged you can get ridiculous DPS.