Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[SsIras]

I can't really say I agree. If a new player was to use a bow or gun that explicitly says shoots multiple bullets, they'd expect the same multiple bullets to have the same effect. I don't think limiting an ammunition's special effect to a single shot/arrow works. An appropriate fix to the Daedalus Stormbow would have been placing it in a higher tier, and replacing the weapon with another bow.

I feel my proposal is more modest. Key of Night and Light are too easy to craft, it would be reasonable to give them a crafting requirement like mech boss souls. It probably won't happen for several reasons, like changes to core parts of the game which will be unlikely to get approved, as well as something that's possible out of scope for Leinforns (granted he is thinking about doing the same for Terra Blade, but that's for a different issue). And since it seems there will be no further effort to balance Stormbow, talking about it here more seems inefficient. Maybe make a suggestion elsewhere and hope it gets considered, but yeah, for vanilla, Stormbow is likely to stay as it is.
The only other thing I can think of being reworked for rangers that would affect Stormbow is an adjustment to ammo production costs. You get way too much arrows/bullets for certain materials, you're likely to have ichor to spare even in early Hardmore for example. But I will leave better judgment of that to others.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I feel my proposal is more modest. Key of Night and Light are too easy to craft, it would be reasonable to give them a crafting requirement like mech boss souls. It probably won't happen for several reasons, like changes to core parts of the game which will be unlikely to get approved, as well as something that's possible out of scope for Leinforns (granted he is thinking about doing the same for Terra Blade, but that's for a different issue). And since it seems there will be no further effort to balance Stormbow, talking about it here more seems inefficient. Maybe make a suggestion elsewhere and hope it gets considered, but yeah, for vanilla, Stormbow is likely to stay as it is.
The only other thing I can think of being reworked for rangers that would affect Stormbow is an adjustment to ammo production costs. You get way too much arrows/bullets for certain materials, you're likely to have ichor to spare even in early Hardmore for example. But I will leave better judgment of that to others.

I don't think this is a good solution, the dart guns and the daedleus stormbow aren't the only mimic weapons, it makes more sense to nerf 3 weapons then to move the mimics up a tier and buff the other 9.

 

[SsIras]

I don't think this is a good solution, the dart guns and the daedleus stormbow aren't the only mimic weapons, it makes more sense to nerf 3 weapons then to move the mimics up a tier and buff the other 9.

I agree. What I meant it's that I did prefer to have these weapons still 'obtainable' pre-mech than to completely move it a tier. But I'm not expecting a change here, and I think it is fine how it is for the most part.

 

[Dragrath]

I agree. What I meant it's that I did prefer to have these weapons still 'obtainable' pre-mech than to completely move it a tier. But I'm not expecting a change here, and I think it is fine how it is for the most part.

Given how the devs buffed the dart weapons as they "wanted more people to use them" and gave them new sprites perhaps they could be given a later progression upgrade allowing the mimic drops to be suitably renerfed. I didn't have a problem with the old sprites which seemed a nice homage to the starter guns for each orb type so bringing back the old 1.3 versions and a later progression using the 1.4 version could resolve that. Honestly it is just the ranged weapons which as Leinfors said is a consequence of how ranged damage was set up a while back and is beyond the scope of simple balance changes he can approve.

Speaking of mimic drops it annoys me that the putrid scents upgrades lose its damage and crit components entirely if the issue is with its general damage & crit bonus
perhaps they could be made class specific? After all the upgrades are ranged and magic specific items.

 

[SsIras]

Speaking of mimic drops it annoys me that the putrid scents upgrades lose its damage and crit components entirely if the issue is with its general damage & crit bonus
perhaps they could be made class specific? After all the upgrades are ranged and magic specific items.

Unlike something such as Fire Gauntlet who loses potential DPS, the function of Putrid Scent and Flesh Knuckle is to be used strategically in multiplayer. The boost in crit and damage and high defense of Flesh Knuckles were there to compensate for being really 'weak' accessories overall, since they didn't had any other functions. Sniper Scope, Magic Quiver, Mana Potion, Power Glove and Paladin Shield are both very good accessories that don't really need upgrades, but the added benefits they gained in multiplayer now ensures than the effects of Putrid Scent and Flesh Knuckle are more noticed.
I don't think they're much of upgrades as they are variations.

 

[CrabBar]

Speaking of mimic drops it annoys me that the putrid scents upgrades lose its damage and crit components entirely if the issue is with its general damage & crit bonus
perhaps they could be made class specific? After all the upgrades are ranged and magic specific items.

That looked quite jarring to me as well, but after mild analysis that turned out to be the only healthy action (if the addition of such "upgrades" was to be considered a necessary move at all).
Thing is, you can stack those "upgrades" with previous versions. On something like Sniper Scope that is double the 10/10 damage/crit, this is exceptional. Giving even more stats on top would be a disaster, and giving less to manage said stacking would make no sense to regular player at all. Making those bonuses class specific doesn't really change the picture as you won't use those items as off-class.
The only trouble with current situation is that for some reason Flesh Knuckles interact differently and actually add defense at different ratios, Berserker's Glove going as far as getting full 7 defense. Almost like "alternative content" bias

 

[SsIras]

The only trouble with current situation is that for some reason Flesh Knuckles interact differently and actually add defense at different ratios, Berserker's Glove going as far as getting full 7 defense. Almost like "alternative content" bias

To be fair, those were the worst on the list. Beserker's Glove would be much worse as a Mechanical Glove upgrade.

 

[CrabBar]

To be fair, those were the worst on the list. Beserker's Glove would be much worse as a Mechanical Glove upgrade.

No one stops me from equipping both... yet. Plus it's worthy pre-mech substitute.
But ultimately yes, that's a fair point to consider, they aren't OP at all by themselves. Just stacking gets wacky.

 

[a31337]

Percentage based damage doesn't really work. It would act as an effective nerf at lower levels (unneeded) but would have shockingly high DPS output at upper levels. Even a 1% DoT could do hundreds of damage to certain enemies, but against a Possessed Armor, it would be doing 1-2, which would be a nerf to some of even the strongest DoTs.

The implementation is probably doable, code-wise, but it doesn't work from a balance perspective. And IMO, its far too significant of a complete overhaul to DoT mechanics to make at the last second.

What about logarithmic based damage? More damage the more max HP the target has, but the damage increases at a snail's pace. Even with base 2 logarithms an enemy with 65k hp would only take roughly 16 damage.

 

[Dragrath]

No one stops me from equipping both... yet. Plus it's worthy pre-mech substitute.
But ultimately yes, that's a fair point to consider, they aren't OP at all by themselves. Just stacking gets wacky.

It still bothers me though that the two aren't treated equally yes damage is more problematic when it comes to stacking personally I had been think only the mage counterpart would get the flat damage & crit boost the quiver would still just effect arrows and the scope would probably receive a reduced bonus such as 12% to ranged damage and crit if anything I didn't really have much of a problem with that one per say. I would never consider giving them the full damage boost of the putrid scent as damage upgrades typically receive diminishing returns for a reason with exception of general damage boosts to class specific.
As far as stacking goes as long as there are diminishing returns accessory slot limits I think that would be more than enough to compensate since you can already get a full damage stacking effect if you chose to forgo defense and mobility...(though mounts can counter the latter problem).


That said if stacking is a problem there is already a mechanic to prevent certain items effects from stacking with each other the OOA accessories and as of 1.4 the Celestial accessories already have this trait. Perhaps that could even be used to enable more summoner upgrades? probably a bit late now but I think the Stinger Necklace and or some combination of the panic or sweetheart necklace would make sense as multi path upgrades are a thing as of 1.4. It might also be worth it to have obsidian horseshoes be used in the place of horseshoes at the cost of losing the obsidian skull effect since there is now precedent for that helping out those that discovered they "wasted" their horseshoe on a useless upgrade.

 

[marulok]

What about logarithmic based damage? More damage the more max HP the target has, but the damage increases at a snail's pace. Even with base 2 logarithms an enemy with 65k hp would only take roughly 16 damage.

Forgive my inexpertise on the subject (I only know logarithmic by the most rudimentary level), but how much would that do for a lower-HP enemy? Because if it ends up being super low then we'd end up with a nerf in the one stage of the game where DOTs are actually viable. 16 DPS from on-fire doesn't seem like a huge buff. Would base 2.5/3 log be better?

 

[Greedy Yeti]

I've always felt that one way or another, summoner gets the short end of the stick, while at 1.4 hardmode summoner can stay on its own right alongside the other classes, at pre-hardmode it is still painfully difficult to start. The 3 supposed early game summons are either too random or require an obscene amount of grinding and in the case of the whips, it is way too difficult to aquire even one of them early on.

My request is that they make at least one of the summons less random or craftable, such as the finch staff, and maybe add an armor set that isn't the bee armor, since every other class now has at least 2 armors pre-hardmode, why can't summoner get another set too?

Sorry if this is off-topic from the current conversation, i just wanted to say my opinion about something that has been obviously too underpowered ever since it was introduced

 

[J Bame]

True melee suggestions:
* Increase PHM Ore Sword's and Bone Sword's damage by 60%, or as much as needed to let the Gold/Platinum ones compete with Enchanted Sword/Ice Blade as swords (without their projectile factored in).
* Same story for HM ore swords; big damage increase. Size Scale buffs also wouldn't hurt.
* Lower base Use time for Ore Spears (increases their range due to how spears work), then a damage buff or lower iframes per hit to compensate.
* Give Phaseblades autoswing, increase their damage and crit chance to, let's say, 24 and 18%. However lower their knockback all the way down to 0.1 (effectively 0 on everything but enough to let them get Legendary). This makes them very good for DPS (only slightly below Muramasa), but the lack of knockback prevents them from being too strong against enemies and outclassing other swords.
* Phasesaber damage and crit chance to, let's say, 60 and 24% (that is almost 1.3 Keybrand DPS, yes), knockback down to 1. Same reasoning as above.
* Double Breaker Blade's damage and Use Time and size scale. With the new ability this is much less redundant than it sounds, as it will essentially one-shot weak enemies and kill stronger ones in two or three. However the slow speed and the fact that it'd be very weak on tanky enemies/minibosses prevents it from outclassing other swords completely.
* Let Blade of Grass inflict Venom (It could just get stats but this is more fun).
* If Magma Stone gets to inflict a stronger debuff, let Fiery Greatsword get the same buff. This would make it not completely outclassed by Night's Edge due to having a little niche of its own.
* Give Night's Edge the autoswing it has deserved for so long (and ofc better stats). Dark Lance could get the same.
* Give extraUpdates (aka double velocity) to Horseman's Blade's pumpkins, this would let the sword reach its peak DPS immediately instead of having to wait for the pumpkins to reach their targets. Also, give it some better base stats now that we are at it.
* Zombie Arm's knockback from 4,25 to about 9, up the damage a bit maybe.
* Lower Mandible blade use time and knockback drastically (let's say 10 and 1 respectively), lower base damage a bit (Say 11 or 12) to compensate. This essentially turns them into Pre-EoC Fetid Baghnakhs.

 

[Contragor]

Hey Guys,

Would like to share this here. Thank you @Dragrath for your suggestion.

This is regarding boomerangs and thoughts on how to make this weapon class actually usable throughout the game.

Pre-Hardmode:

* All boomerangs should have higher speed, otherwise they are all useless except for the combat wrench
* All boomerangs would benefit from some piercing and stacking
* There should be at least one more tier above the combat wrench, with stacking, greater range and higher base damage. Being forced to build an arena across the entire [large] world to beat the Wall of Flesh is ridiculous, especially when every other class has multiple good options.

Hardmode:

* Higher drop rate for Bananarangs would greatly help. They are pretty decent against the Twins, Prime and Plantera even in Master mode
* Sergeant United Shield is great against the Destroyer and helps in some situations when homing is needed but without stacking it's only good very early on.
* Light discs are only useful in tight places like the Dungeon, but other than that lack both the damage and range of the Banarangs
* Paladin's Hammer is somewhat usable when piercing is a must but lacks range and homing unfortunately.
* Possessed Hatchet is my top pick due to its homing and relatively fast speed. Though it's lacking in the damage and piercing department.
* We have NO endgame boomerangs. This could be fixed with another tier that combines the functionality of the Possessed Hatched and Paladin's Hammer. It would also have to have higher base damage to even reach the lower end of the acceptable level for endgame.

All in all, it is a very nice weapon class but not finalized and not really endgame viable. Good for a fun challenge though.

 

[a31337]

Forgive my inexpertise on the subject (I only know logarithmic by the most rudimentary level), but how much would that do for a lower-HP enemy? Because if it ends up being super low then we'd end up with a nerf in the one stage of the game where DOTs are actually viable. 16 DPS from on-fire doesn't seem like a huge buff. Would base 2.5/3 log be better?

Against an enemy with 256 HP, aka 2^8 HP, the damage is actually reduced to 8 damage. Against an enemy with 64 HP, or 2^4 HP, that damage is reduced to 4 damage. Increasing the base will actually lower the DPS, so if you want to deal more damage to an enemy you need to decrease the logarithm's base.

I've been thinking about logarithmic based damage and I feel like this would be the exact opposite scenario of percentile based damage: the damage would be shockingly low at upper levels, but exceedingly large at lower levels. You would have to find a perfect balance to make the debuff viable. I might do it but not today unfortunately.

 

[Lunatrius]

Not exactly a balancing thing, but were additional cursor styles considered? With the amount of flashy things going on in the game, especially late game, it can be incredibly easy to completely lose track of where exactly the mouse cursor is.

 

[Mail]

What about logarithmic based damage? More damage the more max HP the target has, but the damage increases at a snail's pace. Even with base 2 logarithms an enemy with 65k hp would only take roughly 16 damage.

Scaling DOTs based on the afflicted character's stats might set the expectation that the player would be punished in the same way as enemies.

The only information an afflicted character has about a debuff is the type of debuff and remaining debuff duration. Theoretically you could scale debuff damage on remaining duration for debuffs that aren't inflicted on the player in long durations, though there could be a technical or balance reason that prevents this change.

 

[a31337]

Scaling DOTs based on the afflicted character's stats might set the expectation that the player would be punished in the same way as enemies.

To fix that (and this has been mentioned before in this thread), you could separate DoTs inflicted on players and DoTs inflicted by players, and that would allow some debuffs like Frostburn and Cursed inferno to be buffed even more without dealing ridiculous damage against players.

The only information an afflicted character has about a debuff is the type of debuff and remaining debuff duration. Theoretically you could scale debuff damage on remaining duration for debuffs that aren't inflicted on the player in long durations, though there could be a technical or balance reason that prevents this change.

Just like the Luck potion scales with its time remaining. This could definitely work on weapons that inflict Cursed Inferno, however I presume that it shouldn't be applied on Ichor because it would nerf the debuff pretty hard.

 

[Mail]

To fix that (and this has been mentioned before in this thread), you could separate DoTs inflicted on players and DoTs inflicted by players, and that would allow some debuffs like Frostburn and Cursed inferno to be buffed even more without dealing ridiculous damage against players.

No enemies inflict frostburn or shadowflame, the player can only get them in PvP.

Just like the Luck potion scales with its time remaining.

There is also a precedent with mana sickness, but mana sickness and luck potion modify stats instead of dealing damage and only apply to players.

 

[a31337]

No enemies inflict frostburn or shadowflame, the player can only get them in PvP.


There is also a precedent with mana sickness, but mana sickness and luck potion modify stats instead of dealing damage and only apply to players.

I must've mistaken Frostburn with Chilled. Oh well, my point still stands for the other debuffs that are shared with the player and enemies.