Actually, players (including me) seem to complain most about three things:
Terrible mobility in Vortex stealth
ML drops being jokes, especially damned Celebration
Expensive Chloro bullets
While changing damned Celebration to something better is fully up to Devs and their weapons taste (I personally hope that this time they won't do the same thing as with Moon Lord), we brainstormed pretty good solutions to first problem. Two of these are even in the poll.
I could see this happening, because ranged is hard to play as. You don't get great defense, you have no form of lifesteal, and you don't deal huge amounts of damage.
Exactly, the current state is that ranged fails hard at offense, defense and utility at the same time.
And yeah, I'm back, I'm still watching this thread.
Fun fact. After some gameplay, I even feel summoner to be better.
Yeah, friggin' summoners can deal 4k DPS without moving their cursor, a DPS which you won't surpass in actual combat without stealth. Even in stealth, you need quite good accuracy in order to keep up with an unarmed summoner. The thing I feel summoner being weak at is crowd control.
Summoner could use some tweaks too, but that won't happen since Diablo II.
Diablo II had that broken summoner class, the Necromancer, since that, developers are afraid of summoner classes and they keep them underpowered in order to keep people away from going completely AFK in games.
Of course, devs always forget that botting started with hammerdins and somehow, no dev is afraid of noskill powerhouse paladin classes.
So far, I'd say summoner has reached it's maximum intended potential that Relogic might consider healthy.
At that point they are definitely better for general purpose slaughter than ranged is, except for rare situations, at which ranged is still inferior to the other two class.
Of course, forgot to mention, but we have to Celebrate!
We had 2 patch in a row that didn't nerf Phantasm! Of course those patches didn't nerf/buff/change anything else either, but at least they didn't nerf Phantasm any further!
INB4: I already expect 1.3.0.9. to be a patch with only one change, -20 damage for Phantasm. xD
*Damn Celebrate.
Don't worry, they're just preparing for 1.3.1. And I'm sure that they won't nerf it's damage anymore due to community rage. Making it fire backwards, though, is something I expect.
Good to see You back. Little bird told me that You switched to mage. I am not surprised, though.
Same. I would love it if the Celebration was taken out of ML's pool and replaced with the Nova Cannon, Tournament, or Nuclear Messenger. After all, why should the last rocket launcher in the game be some joke weapon when it could be a weapon of extreme awesomeness?
Of course I still care about this thread. I love explosives, and really want a better end-game explosive! To be honest, I would love a new type of explosive bullet for gunslingers, too, but that's for another time. :v Also, yes, you wrote that correctly. You could have also said "... make up for this bad joke we Rangers received." Either way is correct, grammatically. :3
The Celebration is REALLY underestimate, I think.
It shoots two rocket, and each rocket seems will deal twice damage.
So, don't be fooled by its damage shown.
When tested on a dummy, with the Vortlex Armor set and steath on, and with the Menacing Celestial Shell and other four Menacing accessories.
An Unreal Celebration with Rocket III deals 4000~6000 DPS.
An Unreal Snowman Cannon with Rocket III deals about 3200 DPS.
An Unreal S.D.M.G. with Muscket Ball deals about 6000 DPS.
Which means it is almost the same level with S.D.M.G.(note its AOE attack) and better than Snowman Cannon.
The Celebration is REALLY underestimate, I think.
It shoots two rocket, and each rocket seems will deal twice damage.
So, don't be fooled by its damage shown.
When tested on a dummy, with the Vortlex Armor set and steath on, and with the Menacing Celestial Shell and other four Menacing accessories.
An Unreal Celebration with Rocket III deals 4000~6000 DPS.
An Unreal Snowman Cannon with Rocket III deals about 3200 DPS.
An Unreal S.D.M.G. with Muscket Ball deals about 6000 DPS.
Which means it is almost the same level with S.D.M.G.(note its AOE attack) and better than Snowman Cannon.
The Celebration is REALLY underestimate, I think.
It shoots two rocket, and each rocket seems will deal twice damage.
So, don't be fooled by its damage shown.
When tested on a dummy, with the Vortlex Armor set and steath on, and with the Menacing Celestial Shell and other four Menacing accessories.
An Unreal Celebration with Rocket III deals 4000~6000 DPS.
An Unreal Snowman Cannon with Rocket III deals about 3200 DPS.
An Unreal S.D.M.G. with Muscket Ball deals about 6000 DPS.
Which means it is almost the same level with S.D.M.G.(note its AOE attack) and better than Snowman Cannon.
We already figured out that it's DPS could match, and even be higher than other weapons. But it doesn't mean it's better than Snowman Cannon. Why? Because:
Snowman Cannon homes in on targets. Celebration does not. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon can destroy terrain when used with proper rockets. Celebration cannot. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon has range of at least two screens. Celebration's rockets explode before reaching screen border. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon rockets have much higher velocity than Celebration's ones. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon has 100% accuracy, even if miss - homing does the job. Celebration shoots two rockets in differing directions (cone), and at different speeds. +1 point for SMC.
Celebration has higher DPS, except in situations when used on lots of fast moving enemies. +1 point for damned Celebration.
Celebration fires two rockets at a time, covering larger area with AoE than Snowman Cannon. +1 point for damned Celebration
Results? Snowman Cannon wins by 3 more points (5 for Snowman Cannon vs. 2 for damned Celebration), if not taking awesomeness into accoount. If we take a look at it, however, then:
Snowman Cannon is totally badass and awesome, while damned Celebration is fu**ing firework joke, even though it's ML drop and should be cool. +1000 points for Snowman Cannon!
Taking this into account, there is no result as Celebration runs away crying because of how shameful it is.
That's the point where the argument lost any interest.
The problem is that it's only against a target dummy.
Nothing else will take that damage, only target dummies, because you need a direct hit with both rockets to do that.
Mythbusting:Celebration doesn't hit twice with the actual rocket, the other damage you see there is a distance-based effect which quickly diminishes the farther away the explosion is.
As the second damage you see is heavily based on the explosion's distance from the target and Celebration is highly inaccurate, you'll never see that same damage in any combat situation, as you have to stand IN their hitbox. Meaning, in order to deal that the same exact 6k DPS on an enemy Celebration requires you to get hit constantly by standing in their hitbox.
Well, as a ranged player I don't like standing in the hitbox of an enemy, I prefer killing it. That's what the Snowman Cannon is good at.
The Snowman Cannon actually will deal it's high DPS to any target without failure and it's DPS is slightly higher than what the Celebration does.
While the Celebration is practically an inaccurate melee weapon, the Snowman Cannon is a rocket launcher with guided rockets. Even if you aim right, the Celebration's inaccuracy will make your shots miss the target, losing DPS or they might even explode before reaching the target, again, losing DPS.
Not to mention that the Electrosphere Launcher does more than 7k DPS againt an actual boss - tried and tested -, which is qute a bit more than the top you were capable of doing with Celebration. So yeah, Celebration is that bad.
We already figured out that it's DPS could match, and even be higher than other weapons. But it doesn't mean it's better than Snowman Cannon. Why? Because:
Snowman Cannon homes in on targets. Celebration does not. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon can destroy terrain when used with proper rockets. Celebration cannot. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon has range of at least two screens. Celebration's rockets explode before reaching screen border. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon rockets have much higher velocity than Celebration's ones. +1 point for SMC.
Snowman Cannon has 100% accuracy, even if miss - homing does the job. Celebration shoots two rockets in differing directions (cone), and at different speeds. +1 point for SMC.
Celebration has higher DPS, except in situations when used on lots of fast moving enemies. +1 point for damned Celebration.
Celebration fires two rockets at a time, covering larger area with AoE than Snowman Cannon. +1 point for damned Celebration
Results? Snowman Cannon wins by 3 more points (5 for Snowman Cannon vs. 2 for damned Celebration), if not taking awesomeness into accoount. If we take a look at it, however, then:
Snowman Cannon is totally badass and awesome, while damned Celebration is fu**ing firework joke, even though it's ML drop and should be cool. +1000 points for Snowman Cannon!
Taking this into account, there is no result as Celebration runs away crying because of how shameful it is.
Also, his points. Many are common, everyone who ever tested the Celebration against events and bosses know how inaccurate and short ranged it is. On top of that, his point that it's just a bad joke weapon is legit as well, I can't remember anyone who actually liked the desing or the idea of it.
As the second damage you see is heavily based on the explosion's distance from the target and Celebration is highly inaccurate, you'll never see that same damage in any combat situation, as you have to stand IN their hitbox. Meaning, in order to deal that the same exact 6k DPS on an enemy Celebration requires you to get hit constantly by standing in their hitbox.
I admit it's inaccurate, but not that inaccurate as the Chain Gun, and it's a ROCKET weapon, and the explosive will make up it.
For the land mobs, just aiming at the land will do the job, and for the bosses, they normally big enough to take the full damage, its only downside is not good for quick floating mobs.
Also, is will not damage the player and will not be reflect.
Then, I just say that I used it with Votlex Armor and some end-game accessories to reach the final wave of the Frost Moon at about 3:30 am.
Also there are always some weapons that one like and others don't, and most weapons have their downside, like the Bubble Gun is too short, and the Last Prism is too mana consume, so I think Celebration is fine as it is(though it is more like a joke weapon).
I admit it's inaccurate, but not that inaccurate as the Chain Gun, and it's a ROCKET weapon, and the explosive will make up it.
For the land mobs, just aiming at the land will do the job, and for the bosses, they normally big enough to take the full damage, its only downside is not good for quick floating mobs.
Also, is will not damage the player and will not be reflect.
It's hard to turn around with it. Anyway, it's hard to hit anything with two missiles, not even talking about hitting it directly (which is required in order to reach its full potential), as staying at near-point blank range is not something Ranged player could allow himself to do.
Then, I just say that I used it with Votlex Armor and some end-game accessories to reach the final wave of the Frost Moon at about 3:30 am.
I did the same with Tsunami before midnight. Also, players with Star Wrath/Last Prism did the job of reaching 20th FM wave in less than one minute, which is impossible by any means even with maxed out S.D.M.G. Again, unfair for Rangers, but what can I do.
Also there are always some weapons that one like and others don't, and most weapons have their downside, like the Bubble Gun is too short, and the Last Prism is too mana consume, so I think Celebration is fine as it is(though it is more like a joke weapon).
Manasick Last Prism deals more than 1.5x DPS of damned Celebration, keeping 100% accuracy, infinite penetration and instant velocity. Just saying, in case You consider damned Celebration superior in anything to LP.
The main problem with damned Celebration is, as I said, being joke. While other classes received at least two serious, badass and cool weapons, each powerfull (Star Wrath and Terrarian - Serious, Lunar flare and Last prism - serious, Lunar Portal and Crystal staffs - serious), we got two jokes, only one keeping line with other ML drops, second being too weak to be dropped by endgame boss (Both Celebration and S.D.M.G. are jokes; damned Celebration is weak compared to any other ML drop - all of these: Meowmere, Terrarian, Lunar Flare, S.D.M.G. , Last Prism and Star Wrath outclass it both in DPS and special propeties). I know that Devs had good intentions, but they just went wrong way. Why the hell Mages didn't get any damned joke, while we got two?
The Celebration could easily be more powerful, just buff the damage and let the WHOLE FIREWORK deal damage, a huge blast radius that goes through blocks with separate projectile parts to deal tons of damage. and give the SDMG a laser tracking on enemies behind you whilst you fire it.
Main problem with Celebration is that it's joke. Rangers, as only class from Terraria have all their ML drops jokes - Mages, Warriors and even Summoners have things cool, badass and powerfull, and most important - not jokes (besides Meowmere, but it's compensated by Terrarian). We just got two thing, from which only one is powerful, but both aren't something You could put in sentence "I will obliterate this world using my {put ML drop here}". What, would Dolphin or Firework fit this? Certainly not. Warriors could say "With stars raining down from the sky", Mages "With ultimate laser of doom", even summoners could say "With a ray of energy striking down our foes"... Only Rangers have these f*cking jokes.
damned Celebration stats and mechanics just suck compared to other ML drops. Neither buffing it's damage, nor AoE can help - to stay in game as ML drop, this weapon needs complete rework.
So, I recently tested it on Duke Fishron(expert), with Vortex Armor, Star Veil, Ankh Shield, Worm Scarf, Sniper Scope, Destoryer Emblem and Celestial Shell(all with Menacing or Lucky prefix).
Also used all the related buff(mainly including Well Fed, Wrath and Rage, also archery for bows)
Then there is the result of the time that defeat the Duke Fishron, tested by a stop watch, may be less than 1 s longer than real.
with Rocket III:
Unreal Snowman Cannon(216+182 damage, 92% crit): 23.09 s
Unreal Electrosphere Launcher(129+182 damage, 92% crit): 21.48 s
Unreal Celebration(210+182 damage, 102% crit): 11.93 s
with Chlorophyte Bullet:
Unreal Vortex Beater(160+28 damage, 92% crit): 14.00 s
Unreal S.D.M.G.(250+28 damage, 102% crit): 9.19 s
Godly Chain Gun(101+28 damage, 92% crit): 23.64 s
Unreal Xeno Popper(146+28 damage, 92% crit): 19.50 s
with Holy Arrow:
Unreal Tsunami(232+36 damage, 92% crit): 11.39 s
Unreal Phantasm(192+36 damage, 92% crit): 9.72 s
So it means that the Celebration is about the same level of other similar ranged weapons(similar to S.D.M.G and deals more damage than Snowman Cannon)
And not a lame weapon, joke or not, I think it's still powerful enough as the Moon Lord drop.
Not to mention that the Electrosphere Launcher does more than 7k DPS againt an actual boss - tried and tested -, which is qute a bit more than the top you were capable of doing with Celebration. So yeah, Celebration is that bad.
I think the boss has more than one part or you managed to keep it between more than one electro sphere, right?
I tested the Electrosphere Launcher on the dummy, with all the damage booting equipment and buffs, it only deals about 4800 DPS. While the Celebration could deal about 8000 DPS.
@felis I'm tired, and not going to waste any more time on this discussion, especially because I have to repeat important things. So, I'll say it in as compact form as possible:
damned Celebration by no means can go with other ML drops. I tried Duke Fishron on Expert just after I've seen your post. Nebula/Solar armor, all accesories menacing. Mechanical Glove, Warrior Emblem for Warrior; Celestial Emblem and Sorcerer emblem for mage. Celestial Shell, Avenger Emblem, Master Ninja Gear and Destroyer Emblem for all. When using Terrarian, switched Celestial Shell to Yoyo Bag. Well feed buff - no others, neither Wrath nor Rage. Effects?
Last Prism (Demonic): Obliterated fishy 4 seconds (average from two measurements) after beam concentrated. It's something like... 7 seconds. It couldn't even dry me out of mana.
Terrarian (Godly): Slaughtered him in 10 seconds average (9,73 and 10,51 by stopwatch).
Lunar Flare (Mythical): About 12 seconds (11,89 and 11,84). I missed some shots, though.
Star Wrath (Legendary): Average 13 seconds (12,90 and 13,48). Missed a lot because of delay.
S.D.M.G. (Unreal) with chloro bullets (Vortex amor - without stealth; Sniper Scope, Master Ninja Gear, Celestial Shell, Destroyer Emblem, Evenger Emblem and Ranger Emblem): 19 seconds on average. See #1
damned Celebration (Unreal): Don't know. I tried twice, but both times got killed before I could obliterate him (maybe because I focused on hitting him rather than dodging). Don't want to waste more Truffle Worms.
Take into account that I didn't focus solely on DPS, and didn't use Clairvoyance, Magic Power Potion or even Flasks, but fought on Expert. Now tell me: How the hell could damned Celebration match any of these weapons, when they can outdamage it even when they should be theoretically weaker (not buffed as much as You did)?
If You didn't read this post, here it is, so You could see it:
Main problem with Celebration is that it's joke. Rangers, as only class from Terraria have all their ML drops jokes - Mages, Warriors and even Summoners have things cool, badass and powerfull, and most important - not jokes (besides Meowmere, but it's compensated by Terrarian). We just got two thing, from which only one is powerful, but both aren't something You could put in sentence "I will obliterate this world using my {put ML drop here}". What, would Dolphin or Firework fit this? Certainly not. Warriors could say "With stars raining down from the sky", Mages "With ultimate laser of doom", even summoners could say "With a ray of energy striking down our foes"... Only Rangers have these f*cking jokes.
This is the real reason for which Celebration is WORSE than other ML drops. This is why so much players, including me, hate it. Because it had to be something cool and awesome, but - just like this dolphin, which at least doesn't shoot fireworks stolen from Party Girl - is ANOTHER FU*KING JOKE! Sorry for such... emotional words, but this is something that enrages me even more than C.S. Goto's books. This isn't mean to offend anyone in any way.
This is all. I also want to highlight that there is difference between opinion and fact - the former may differ for different people, while the latter is same for everyone.
Well, I somehow deleted S.D.M.G. stats when posting first. Don't really know how did it happen. I won't do measurements again, so I just added average kill time, as this is something I remember.
GC_dzbanek told you most of the important stuff.
What amuses me is that you can miss with a seeking missile, while you manage to hit enemies with the least accurate rocket launcher in the game. Not to mention that you have the slowest finger in the known galaxy or you just have no clue about that the Electrosphere Launcher must be spammed for impact damage in order to deal high DPS with it.
Well, I admit, I didn't know that for long either, I was "raging" and I decided to spam Electrospheres at a target dummy to chillout.
You know, I can deal 7k DPS against single segment boss with the Electrosphere Launcher, it almost broke my mouse, but I reached 8k against immobile single target as well. Okay, I admit, using the Electrosphere Launcher effectively pretty much requires trigger fingers of the first class.
Yeah, whenever we get the mod API, I'll work for days or even weeks to create a mod changing all the crappy stuff in Terraria like moving Celebration to the Party Girl's inventory, changing the Moon Lord drops to be craftable from Luminite and various crafting materials so that the RNG won't hurt people as much - yeah, I heard of people who haven't seen the Meowmere since release -, generally removing most weapon drops and making them craftable from a boss-drop resource instead. Slowly removing randomness of drops as the RNG of the game is pretty much broken and tend's to get stuck often.
So fear not, at that point I'll play ranger again. X)
Actually I'll switch from mage I think, Last Prism is awfully boring, that thing has no downside, the damage is extremely high, the range, the piercing, the accuracy, it doesn't even cost much to use it, 72mana/sec isn't much when you pick up like ~2-300 mana every second...
...so Meowmere and the way of the warrior awaits me, I always was a cat-person.
If we get that mod API soon enough, I'll add a catlike creature to summon as well, because kitten powers.
OK, we could stop arguing, and clearly we have different play style.
Also, I don't mind something is joke or not, as long as it's powerful and easy to use, and the Celebration is an example.
Another example is the Party Bullets, I like it beacause it's cheaper than Musket Balls, deals more damage and funny, thought it's more like a JOKE.
damned Celebration (Unreal): Don't know. I tried twice, but both times got killed before I could obliterate him (maybe because I focused on hitting him rather than dodging). Don't want to waste more Truffle Worms.
What amuses me is that you can miss with a seeking missile, while you manage to hit enemies with the least accurate rocket launcher in the game. Not to mention that you have the slowest finger in the known galaxy or you just have no clue about that the Electrosphere Launcher must be spammed for impact damage in order to deal high DPS with it.
I seldom miss the rocket from Snowman Cannon, but the reason is that it's DPS is NOT enough, and I DO miss some from the Celebration before it changed to the second phace, but its DPS is enough to make up this.
For the Electrosphere Launcher, I let the electro sphere deal the damage itself, I found some clue of the DPS but I think it's just because the damage waves, and I am poor at point-based aiming, and missed a lot when fighting Duke Fishron.
And even so, I prefer not to use it because it can't auto-fire because I don't think I can click that fast, and this is the reason I never use Venus Magnam(the only non-aut-fire weapon I like is Sniper Rife).
So my opinion is:
Joke or not, powerful and easy enough to use, I like it.
And having funny effect could be better. Top of spoiler
OK, we could stop arguing, and clearly we have different play style.
Also, I don't mind something is joke or not, as long as it's powerful and easy to use, and the Celebration is an example.
Another example is the Party Bullets, I like it beacause it's cheaper than Musket Balls, deals more damage and funny, thought it's more like a JOKE.
I tested it with 38 s, I and poor at aiming, especially point-based aiming.
I used the Star Veil and never drop below half health.
I seldom miss the rocket from Snowman Cannon, but the reason is that it's DPS is NOT enough, and I DO miss some from the Celebration before it changed to the second phace, but its DPS is enough to make up this.
For the Electrosphere Launcher, I let the electro sphere deal the damage itself, I found some clue of the DPS but I think it's just because the damage waves, and I am poor at point-based aiming, and missed a lot when fighting Duke Fishron.
And even so, I prefer not to use it because it can't auto-fire because I don't think I can click that fast, and this is the reason I never use Venus Magnam(the only non-aut-fire weapon I like is Sniper Rife).
So my opinion is:
Joke or not, powerful and easy enough to use, I like it.
And having funny effect could be better. Top of spoiler
Well, that makes almost everything clear.
Still I consider that the Celebration is not strong enough to be a Moon Lord drop, if used well, every other Moon Lord drop deals at least ~50-60% more DPS against lategame bosses and events. In it's current state, the Celebration is more in line with Frost Moon drops. xD
Yeah, whenever we get the mod API, I'll work for days or even weeks to create a mod changing all the crappy stuff in Terraria like moving Celebration to the Party Girl's inventory, changing the Moon Lord drops to be craftable from Luminite and various crafting materials so that the RNG won't hurt people as much - yeah, I heard of people who haven't seen the Meowmere since release -, generally removing most weapon drops and making them craftable from a boss-drop resource instead. Slowly removing randomness of drops as the RNG of the game is pretty much broken and tend's to get stuck often.
So fear not, at that point I'll play ranger again. X)
If You're serious, then good luck. I'm so lazy I couldn't even imagine myself doing something that requires more time that result will provide.
Hah, for nearly week I'm attempting to make second summary, but somehow I just cannot gather myself to do the job... Maybe because it's end of summer here, and I must use all remaining time
Well, I just stood still in place, expectring weapon to tear him apart faster than he could kill me, so I was like a dummy for him. But all weapons managed to kill him before he could kill me, just damned Celebration rendered me dead. As I said, thouhg, in this particular case it could have been my fault.
Well, I did the same. Maybe the Star Veil protect me, it likely redused the damage by half. And when the Duke fishron was about to turn the 2nd Phase, it was destoried before it got the chance.
One of the main reasons why I was inactive on the forums for a while was Ludum Dare, a game developer competition, I'm quite a bit older than what my age says about me, I started playing games at the age of 4 and I started developing games at the age of ~14-16, I can't tell the exact number, so I pretty much got used to doing stuff like that.
Well, I never modded a game before, but I believe it can't be much worse than developing a new one.
Okay, this was kinda offtopic...
...back to our stuff, @felis, I have an interesting question for you. What's your favourite weapon. I'm particulalry interested in both your all time favourite - regardless of it's tier -, both ranged and non-ranged weapons. I'm just interested, now that I think about it. What's the favourite of the others?
As for one, my favourite ranged weapon would be the Snowman Cannon and my favourite non-ranged weapon would be the Meowmere. Actually, I like the Meowmere slightly more than the Snowman Cannon, despite that I played and preferred ranger for the slight added difficulty.
As I told before, I played ranged for it's difficulty, being effective at the cost of requiring a steady trigger finger and good reflexes for aiming and dodging. That's why it is somewhat weird, that my favourite ranged weapon is something that doesn't require purrfect aiming. =^-^=
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To be honest, I would love a new type of explosive bullet for gunslingers, too, but that's for another time. :v Also, yes, you wrote that correctly. You could have also said "... make up for this bad joke we Rangers received." Either way is correct, grammatically. :3
