Flint🪓
The Axe
The only thing that keeps the vampire knives ""balanced"" is the moon bite debuff. Otherwise it would be the ultimate moonlord cheese.
Weapons & Equip The Biome Weapon issue.
- Thread starter Lynxical
- Start date
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
okay so this comes from an area of genuine curiosity: at what point did the narrative of vampire knives shift from "kinda weak but keeps you alive" to "nearly as broken as zenith" since i genuinely missed this meta shift while i was becoming a dirty summoner liker.
i started using the funny knife less ahd less as 1.3 and 1.4 came out because they weren't able to sustain facetanking at higher difficulties, and using them at long range was dealing offensively mediocre damage to the point where i was more incentivized to just use more traditional weapons.
i started using the funny knife less ahd less as 1.3 and 1.4 came out because they weren't able to sustain facetanking at higher difficulties, and using them at long range was dealing offensively mediocre damage to the point where i was more incentivized to just use more traditional weapons.
Flint🪓
The Axe
Pretty sure they were always "so broken it´s funny".
- Got added.
- Got nerfed in just 2 hotfixes.
- Got a cap of lifesteal.
Found this video showcasing them before it got nerfed just to see how b r o k e n they were (and still are).
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
Seems unchanged then.
It's a single target weapon that keeps you alive while facetanking. Every time I've used it I either had to stack defense to stay alive the entire time and did less damage than if I was playing "normally" through actually dodging and using more traditional weapons, or I died anyway due to some things being difficult to tank even with it (such as Fishman's tsunamis).
The ability to stand still and kill one boss consistently within 90 seconds is nice and all but that's not broken, it's just consistent. The Baghnakhs were a bigger problem since they were consistent and fast, but this is just consistent and slow.. albeit a spectacle.
It's a single target weapon that keeps you alive while facetanking. Every time I've used it I either had to stack defense to stay alive the entire time and did less damage than if I was playing "normally" through actually dodging and using more traditional weapons, or I died anyway due to some things being difficult to tank even with it (such as Fishman's tsunamis).
The ability to stand still and kill one boss consistently within 90 seconds is nice and all but that's not broken, it's just consistent. The Baghnakhs were a bigger problem since they were consistent and fast, but this is just consistent and slow.. albeit a spectacle.
Coleyohley
Terrarian
Have you considered them not using them as your main weapon? You only need to use them for a few seconds at a time. Their healing caps out at 30 health per second, which is equivalent to a Greater Healing potion every 5 Seconds.
This healing rate is technically dependent on damage dealt, but the requirement to cap it is so low that you really don't need any gear or damage boosts. Melee also has enough tools to penetrate defense that their low damage per hit doesn't matter either.
Again, I feel I must reiterate, they restore 30 health per second. Band of Regeneration restores 1 per second, Regeneration Potion restores 2, Valhalla Knight's Breastplate restores 4, this can restore 30. You should only ever need to use this for a few seconds at a time; their lower DPS does not matter. The boss being alive for a few seconds longer is meaningless if you're constantly at full health.
Healing potions are good, right? You use them when you're low on health? This is 12 times more effective. It's not just a facetanking tool, it's a ridiculously broken healing option regardless of whatever else you're using.
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Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
I have to say I haven't even considered using them period in a hot minute. I used to use them as an off-class swap with flasks to apply Ichor to stuff but then I stopped because I didn't want to only play Crimson worlds every time, and then I didn't want to grind a Crimson Key every time, and then finally I didn't want to fight over the funny knife in multiplayer when I ultimately didn't even need it compared to some of my friends.
I feel like it's kinda weird to say something like this, but being aware of your health, swapping to the funny knife mid fight, then swapping back to your main weapon without ending up in a position to swap back to the funny knife is a lot higher level of a skill than you think it is. That is above the skill cap of a lot of players, and as basic as it may seem to players like us, it's still a mid-high level combat ability when compared to just swinging one weapon at the target until one of you dies.
It keeps you alive, and no matter how you use it, it's still a DPS loss - time you are swapping to it is time you aren't using your main weapon. However, at the end of the day, the game only cares if you defeat your target before your target defeats you, so it's easy for the knives to be over curve in this context.. but I still hesitate to call them broken.
I feel like it's kinda weird to say something like this, but being aware of your health, swapping to the funny knife mid fight, then swapping back to your main weapon without ending up in a position to swap back to the funny knife is a lot higher level of a skill than you think it is. That is above the skill cap of a lot of players, and as basic as it may seem to players like us, it's still a mid-high level combat ability when compared to just swinging one weapon at the target until one of you dies.
It keeps you alive, and no matter how you use it, it's still a DPS loss - time you are swapping to it is time you aren't using your main weapon. However, at the end of the day, the game only cares if you defeat your target before your target defeats you, so it's easy for the knives to be over curve in this context.. but I still hesitate to call them broken.
Coleyohley
Terrarian
Players of that skill level likely don't care too much about optimizing their DPS either, they're just trying to stay alive, and Vampire Knives are unequivocally the best weapon for doing that.
Then swing the weapon that makes you immortal if you're even vaguely trying not to die. Low DPS doesn't matter if you can't lose.
And that's simply not a problem if you're never going to die. If you don't die anymore, then I hate to break it to you, but your dps doesn't matter either; It's simply quality of life at that point to kill the easy unthreatening boss faster. If you DO still die, Vampire Knives will prevent that. Being immune to death is the best way to win any fight that isn't Moon Lord or Daytime Empress.
Compared to any other single healing option, they are absolutely ridiculously above the standard. Compared to every healing option at the same time (Band of Regen, Honey, Celestial Stone, Regeneration Potion, Squire's Helmet, Valhalla Knight's Breastplate, for a total of 11 health per second), it is still three times as effective.
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
That's ultimately the nature of life steal. It either is a passive ability that tops you off to correct a small mistake or two and otherwise can't sustain you, or it's something that deals low damage to sustain you and keep you safe. There is no in between - when's the last time you thought about the Bat Bat, for example? If anything I'd rather there be more lifesteal that's just a flat 1 HP per hit like the Bat Bat gives.
I think we have fundamentally different opinions on life steal/Vampire Knives in general and neither of us seem likely to sway in this opinion, so I'd like to offer a respectful disagreement handshake here. I do understand where you're coming from, but I also just really like life steal.
I think we have fundamentally different opinions on life steal/Vampire Knives in general and neither of us seem likely to sway in this opinion, so I'd like to offer a respectful disagreement handshake here. I do understand where you're coming from, but I also just really like life steal.
Lynxical
Plantera
Fun fact, pre-nerf, with just Godly, they had healing of 109hp/s
I believe I did calculations and they were able to reach over 300hp/s, I think it was 317hp/s or something, and in current Terraria it would be 445hp/s assuming they didn't have the nerfs
So yeah they were casually able to reach over double a Greater Healing Potion while also practically being the best dps weapon in the game
Dapling
Duke Fishron
Actually, yes there is, and it’s another weapon which is held in particularly high regard for being an incredibly powerful source of healing in addition to being great at crowd control. The difference here is that the weapon is actually balanced.
Life Drain
The Life Drain is a Hardmode magic weapon that deals constant damage to all enemies near the cursor's position, as long as the distance between the player and the cursor is unobstructed. A stream of red particles flows toward the user from each targeted enemy. While the weapon is in use, the...
terraria.wiki.gg
J Bame
Terrarian
Alright let's see. Vampire Knives have a limit to how much HP they can restore at any given time. The cap for this limit is 70 hp, it regenerates at a rate of 30 hp per second. Each knife heals for 7.5% of the damage they deal, so if the knives are dealing more than 400 damage every second you will heal at a faster rate that the knives recharge, so you will always heal 30 hp every second.
This explanation is important because...
... this misconception is why EVERYONE underestimates them. "Yeah they heal you but they lose DPS... can't be that good right?" Let's see...
Let's put the numbers into context. You only need 400 DPS to get the max healing. The knives have a base DPS of 537. You dont need any DPS gear to reach it. "But Defense! the knives have low base damage!". This is true to an extent... but let's be real here. You are melee, you get 27 armor penetration for free from just Ichor Flask and Sharpening Station. And you will NOT have 0 dps increases at all times, that's just not how the game works. So it will always be maxed out.
Now let's put the 30 hp/s into context. It's indeed a greater healing potion every 5 seconds. It's also double the regeneration you would get with every single regeneration item combined. Let me remind you, 8 hp/s on Valhalla Breastplate was gamebreaking, 4 hp/s is still stupidly strong, and Charm Of Myths being effectively 1.67 hp/s is one of the better defensive accessories.
Another thing is that calling the knives low DPS is just... not true, or rather WAY exaggerated. It's 537 DPS. A Paladin's Hammer is 540. Scourge of the Corruptor after several buffs is 670, only about 25% higher, and if you dont land the initial Javelin it's a mere 468. An influx waver, basically the strongest single target projectile melee gets until Daybreak, is 900 DPS. It's undeniable that these weapons are stronger than vampire knives for one reason or another, but really, you could take away the healing entirely and the knives would still be a usable weapon for Post Plantera. You lose DPS, but it's not like you are dealing 1 damage either.
Imagine the reverse for a little bit. An accessory that takes away 3 hp every second, a pretty big loss, but also increases your damage by 300%. Would you not use this because "no matter how you use it, you will lose health". Of course not, it will break the game because everything will die before it touches you. For you to die using Vampire Knives you need to be losing more than 30 health every second. If you are losing more than 30 health every second, that means you are going to die in less than 20 seconds with 600 HP from Lifeforce potion and lifefruits. No OP crutch will ever help you if you last that little.
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
Valid points and I've learned something here. I have to admit, being told "it heals 30 HP/second" in a vacuum wasn't really helping me much to understand the situation when the last time I used the funny knives myself was likely at least two years ago and I was just using full defense/aggro management gear, tanking for friends since otherwise they didn't really get to play due to skill differences.
I also just haven't had much opportunity to use them since as I just gravitate towards other damage types or I don't play Crimson worlds since my friends all just want to play Corruption.. and I just really like life steal so I'm overly defensive of them to begin with.
terraria.wiki.gg
... It's 70 limit/30 regeneration? On Expert? The difficulty that was supposed to reduce its effectiveness? And Master didn't lower it further??
No wonder I never thought it was reduced... but I suppose its for the sake of Spectre healing in multiplayer.
I will concede that there is a balance issue with this knowledge that the 70/30 being listed was in Expert and that it doesn't scale further. Master at the very least should have a further reduction, as should For the Worthy. The design of this weapon is meant to be above curve and sustain you, but it shouldn't work that way above Expert of all things...
I'm going to be genuinely inquisitive from here:
... Is there a damage calculator/comparison spreadsheet anywhere? I do math stuff for other games and I visualize item comparisons much better when I have concrete numbers in front of me. I've been meaning to make a TerraCalc google sheet for a while, but never wanted to commit since I didn't know if it existed.
I also just haven't had much opportunity to use them since as I just gravitate towards other damage types or I don't play Crimson worlds since my friends all just want to play Corruption.. and I just really like life steal so I'm overly defensive of them to begin with.
Life Drain was always off my radar due to my own experiences of not actually playing casting once since it came out, and whenever I played it always ended up being on a corruption world due to my friends wanting Worm Scarves. Last I remember, ages ago, it wasn't held in high regards, but I see it was buffed to actually deal usable damage, so I can see I stand corrected on healing sustain not having options other than the Bat Bat.. or not having balanced options to begin with.
THIS is important. I always knew there was a healing cap, but I had no idea how it actually worked. I'm also just now looking at the Wiki for it, and...
Lifesteal
Lifesteal is an effect that heals the player for a portion of their damage dealt, and can be prevented by the Moon Bite(Desktop, Console and Mobile versions) debuff. Currently, there are 2 items that provide this effect: the Vampire Knives and the Spectre Hood.
terraria.wiki.gg
... It's 70 limit/30 regeneration? On Expert? The difficulty that was supposed to reduce its effectiveness? And Master didn't lower it further??
No wonder I never thought it was reduced... but I suppose its for the sake of Spectre healing in multiplayer.
I will concede that there is a balance issue with this knowledge that the 70/30 being listed was in Expert and that it doesn't scale further. Master at the very least should have a further reduction, as should For the Worthy. The design of this weapon is meant to be above curve and sustain you, but it shouldn't work that way above Expert of all things...
Yeah I have to admit I was thinking of stuff like Master mode invasions where there's like five Pumpkings on screen at once pummeling you with 200+ damage hits or trying to stand in things you clearly shouldn't stand in, like Dude Fishman tornadoes instead of just like, playing like a normal person and trying to avoid hits. It's a lot easier to see the discrepancy when you're assuming someone is playing "normally" and just able to heal off their mistakes instead of standing in one place waiting for loot.
I'm going to be genuinely inquisitive from here:
Is this assuming all knives hit, averaging at 6 to account for the 4-8 throw variance? They do fan out and on smaller targets it can be difficult to hit and have the variance, but for the purpose of lifesteal calculation I imagine it doesn't matter just simply due to damage boosts.
... Is there a damage calculator/comparison spreadsheet anywhere? I do math stuff for other games and I visualize item comparisons much better when I have concrete numbers in front of me. I've been meaning to make a TerraCalc google sheet for a while, but never wanted to commit since I didn't know if it existed.
Dapling
Duke Fishron
Unrelated, but they actually nerfed pumpkin moon and frost moon’s late waves to be much less spammy in 1.4.4
Also, you can get worm scarf in crimson worlds now! 1.4 allowed the dryad to sell seeds for the opposite world evil in a hardmode graveyard.
Lynxical
Plantera
It's a little off, the average amount of knives thrown is 4.94 (which we can practically round to 5), and factoring in crit makes it around 566dps instead, even without damage variance the dps would be inconsistent due to crit+knives thrown
While you do need about every knife to hit (base VK lifesteal without a cap is 39hp/s) this can be mitigated by using Melee damage boosts (3 of which are practically free, being Tipsy, T3 Well Fed, and Godly), which barely puts you under the required damage threshold to reach 3hp per knife (about 2.9 per knife but it's rounded down), damage variance probably helps in this case as you'd be healing 2-3 per knife from hitting the threshold pretty easily
- 40 damage is required to heal 3 per knife
- 54 damage is required to heal 4 per knife
- 67 damage is required to heal 5 per knife
The more you heal per knife, the more easily you can hit the cap from less knives
- 3hp per knife is 59hp/s, only needing 10 knives to hit to cap lifesteal
- 4hp per knife is 78hp/s, only needing 8 knives to hit to cap lifesteal
This, going off of the fact around 18-19 knives are thrown every second, changes a lot, also melee speed helps velocity and tightens VK spread. And since generally you're gonna be fighting large targets, makes it so you really don't have to get that close.