Coleyohley
Terrarian
Theming, visual and gameplay variety, sound effects, playstyle... you did read Dapling's post, right? All they're wanting is more, viable variety, and not being punished with lower dps for using the currently-existing variety.
The post-golem and pillar section of the game
- Thread starter Flint🪓
- Start date
Dapling
Duke Fishron
At this point just read my older posts in this thread. I’m tired of restating my earlier points and being dismissed just because post moon lord apparently doesn’t matter.
SOUR LEMON
Terrarian
Okay, I reread Dapling’s earlier posts, and here are my thoughts (well, more of thought, singular):
Journey mode exists
Journey mode exists
Dapling
Duke Fishron
I don’t understand what you mean.
Flint🪓
The Axe
Love how this thread turned from "post-golem section of the game" to "adding zenith versions for other classes would be good/zenith is op asf". Lmao
With an avarage menancing loadout for endgame ranger + SDMG and venom bullets I get 6800-7000 dps. ~9000 dps if on stealth mode.
Now with no armor, accesories or buffs using the zenith I get 7400-7600 dps.
Even worse I get around 12000-14000 dps with the RANGER loadout cuz of the menancing accesories!
In short, zenith as a trophy is nice but kills endgame variety, adding a zenith for each classes not only adds more thophies but also solves the variety issue. Also why the zenith begin a tool would be an issue for adding a zenith to each class?
Again:
- Variety is nice.
- Having more "ultimate weapons" gives the player for throphies to hunt for post-moonlord.
- If you want the most dps post-moonlord you HAVE TO use a melee build to use the zenith properly since no matter what the zenith outclasses everything in endgame.
With an avarage menancing loadout for endgame ranger + SDMG and venom bullets I get 6800-7000 dps. ~9000 dps if on stealth mode.
Now with no armor, accesories or buffs using the zenith I get 7400-7600 dps.
Even worse I get around 12000-14000 dps with the RANGER loadout cuz of the menancing accesories!
In short, zenith as a trophy is nice but kills endgame variety, adding a zenith for each classes not only adds more thophies but also solves the variety issue. Also why the zenith begin a tool would be an issue for adding a zenith to each class?
Dapling
Duke Fishron
If you stand with your back right next to the target dummy and swing your zenith directly away from it, you’ll deal even more damage.
Flint🪓
The Axe
Yeah, but I don´t think thats ideal to do in bossfights.
Flint🪓
The Axe
Not that you are forced to use it but if you want dps post-moonlord the zenith is the best no matter what so the optimal for that would be to switch to a full melee loadout.
chewythebigblackdog
Terrarian
I feel like this is in some parts arguing in bad faith. Testing on dummies is not entirely reflective of how the weapons perform. How often are you going to be close enough to the enemy to hit with close range hitboxes (blade for meowmere and star wrath, and zenith's back hitbox), or have meowmere's attacks bounce into the same target more than once? I'd much rather take the 200 dps loss from using terrarian over meowmere and avoid getting up close and personal. Also, the main reason I mentioned SDMG at all wasn't to say that it was comparable with zenith, since it's not, but rather I just felt that you were overly dismissive of it when comparing it to the other moon lord drops. Having long range, high damage, and access to homing makes it a solid moon lord drop, just not zenith level (which it shares with the rest of the moon lord drops).
I am not trying to say zenith isn't the best weapon in the game by a long shot. It absolutely is. I also agree that it would be nice to have competition for zenith, but the reason I said that I was okay with there not being any competition is that I know that such competition would likely take a while to develop and Re-logic has other priorities. Another reason I'm somewhat okay with there not being any competition is that there's also a decent obtainability gap between "get a moon lord drop" and "get 2 specific moon lord drops as well as a bunch of other items". By the time you have zenith, you have almost certainly exhausted all of the content in the game, and this isn't necessarily true for the other moon lord drops, especially if you rushed to endgame.
Bowser
Terrarian
What would you have changed, then?
Zenith being overpowered is very much intentional and kind of obvious. You have to beat moon lord several times to get it so it isn't designed to help you beat bosses you've already defeated (unless you want to bump up the difficulty and go to expert/master/for the worthy or something). I don't have an issue with that.
Personally, what I have an issue with is the fact that it becomes the best weapon for every class. That isn't really fun. Mage, ranged, and summoner have some really fun weapons at endgame but none of them come close to Zenith even when using your own armor type. For summoner that's not as bad since you are only replacing whips (and summoners sometimes use non-summoner weapons anyways) and your pets are still strong, but for the rest this is just... bad. It feels bad.
While we could nerf Zenith, I don't really think that's the solution. Just add new weapons for rangers, mages, and summoners with ridiculously complex crafting trees that are similarly powerful, at least to the extent that it's better than Zenith when you are using your correct armor type.
But... that's just my opinion.
As for "post-golem" weapons, I don't really have an issue with that. Things like Duke Fishron used to be endgame content after Golem. You can choose to do Duke Fishron after Golem and the weapons will be relevant, or you can choose to use more OP weapons and trivialize the fight because it's really hard. That's ok. That's the way Terraria has been designed. Optional fights are just that--optional. You can do them if you want or just skip them until later (or ever) because they are hard. Same thing with the events.
All of this said, the game is going to be as challenging/relevant as you choose to make it. If you want Duke Fishron's weapons to be relevant, just do the boss after Golem. Yeah, it will be hard, but those weapons will be useful on the pillar events. I can't say that I have a problem with how this is designed. I don't think Duke Fishron should be required, nor do I think their weapons need to be changed. But hey, that's just my opinion, too.
Dapling
Duke Fishron
Okay, I will admit, Meowmere I was unfairly biased against in my tests. Meowmere absolutely curbstomps Terrarian and Star Wrath because it's able to do, well, this:
And because it has localimmunity anything that goes into the "rainbow kitty waterfall of death" gets absolutely obliterated at Zenith speeds.
The only reason I don't think it's as strong as zenith is because it requires a lot of setup to perform, essentially it needs you to gain momentum.
I suppose you're right about the other 3 weapons though. Terrarian does feel quite bad to use due to its remaining iframe issues and I just wish it got local honestly. Not sure what to do about Star Wrath.
It is worth noting however that Zenith has autotargeting/homing to a certain degree, you can actually see it lock on to enemies if you move your cursor away from them. That means zenith is actually weaker on target dummies a lot of the time.
I see. I suppose it should recieve credit for that. It requires build dedication to keep up with the other moon lord drops though so it's not an ideal choice for what you're actually doing in post moon lord most likely.
While that is true, it applies if and only if you don't plan on doing anything after beating the game like labbing and wiring and building, etc.
Flint🪓
The Axe
What I mean is that from the start a “zenith” for each class could have been added, even if I use the zenith instead of whips, it does not solve the issue since you problaby would deal more dps if you went full melee instead.
SOUR LEMON
Terrarian
You are saying that post moon lord is all about exploring the bounds of the game, but that’s what journey mode is for: exploring the game
I understand why you want competition for zenith, but now I’m shifting my point: Post ML is kind of a joke
If someone is playing the game to explore the game, then they’re either playing classic or journey, while expert and master are all about that sweet sweet progression. If someone struggle with enemies/events post moon lord on classic, then that’s a massive skill issue
Dapling
Duke Fishron
Not only is that just an opinion, it’s just straight up wrong.
Classic has only 5 accessory slots and has lower droprates on coins and most other items meaning it’s harder to obtain the materials for testing, and journey doesn’t have access to every mechanic in the game (in particular a pretty major one which needs experimentation and is missing from journey is Hardcore Ghosts. There is absolutely no way to mess with those in journey worlds because Hardcore characters cannot enter them, and Hardcore Ghosts have a ton of mechanics which are completely untapped right now)
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Meowlegend
Torch God
Kinda late to ask but, does this still work? I am attempting to facetank the fishron with Vampire Knives in master mode and still fail (for some reason). If this gear works I am gonna do with this
Dapling
Duke Fishron
That screenshot was for expert mode (my mistake, sorry) but here’s a video of someone doing it in master. It’s not really “without moving” because they used mechanical minecart for increased defense, but they stayed in the same spot the whole fight nonetheless.
(I recommend lowering your volume before the video starts, i got jumpscared by metallica when I played it lol)
Meowlegend
Torch God
Okayyy, gonna try it like this