The post-golem and pillar section of the game

[Salty_]

1. I would argue that post-golem shouldn't be considered a category. Mechs are early hardmode, Plantera is mid hardmode, Lunar is end hardmode.

After plantera is defeated, each of the four classes scatter to get their next set of armor. Mage goes to the dungeon, Ranger goes to glowing mushroom, Summoner goes to pumpkin moon, and Warrior goes to the Jungle Temple. Mage farms drops, Ranger farms materials, Summoner farms events, Warrior farms a boss.

If you are playing warrior, you will not spend much time in the post-plantera pre-golem state, because your next objective is the jungle temple. It has the solar eclipse tablets to help you get the terra blade, and the beetle husks you need for you armor. So I wouldn't consider post-golem a notable state, it's just a part of post-plantera activities.

On the other hand I would consider the lunar events a notable state, because every class gets upgrades from it.


2. Zenith is thematically congruent for Warrior. Warrior's strongest weapon is always made by a combination of the swords it gets throughout that section of the game. In Pre hardmode you have night's edge, hardmode terra blade, and endgame zenith. It works well and is part of why I'm not a fan of zenith-counterparts; its unprecedented for other classes. You'd need to make a ranger,mage, and summoner equivalent of Night's Edge and Terra Blade first.

 

[Meowlegend]

2. Zenith is thematically congruent for Warrior. Warrior's strongest weapon is always made by a combination of the swords it gets throughout that section of the game. In Pre hardmode you have night's edge, hardmode terra blade, and endgame zenith. It works well and is part of why I'm not a fan of zenith-counterparts; its unprecedented for other classes. You'd need to make a ranger,mage, and summoner equivalent of Night's Edge and Terra Blade first.

I completely agree. Zenith is the combination of Swords obtained in Warrior's journey and swords that was the strongest between specific stages as well. If there should be "Zenith alternatives" for other classes, first there should be a Night's edge and Terrablade of those classes.

 

[Dapling]

but people that play the same world for TONS of hours the zenith is not really mandatory tbh

It is. If you want to play on the same world for tons of hours then you need the highest dps possible to get rid of enemies as fast as possible (for when you’re building) and zenith provides that.

this isnt something to get mad about as in Zenith is designed to be the strongest weapon in the game

I’m absolutely going to be mad about it because that design is ing boring and antithetical to the concept of player choice.

2. Zenith is thematically congruent for Warrior. Warrior's strongest weapon is always made by a combination of the swords it gets throughout that section of the game. In Pre hardmode you have night's edge, hardmode terra blade, and endgame zenith. It works well and is part of why I'm not a fan of zenith-counterparts; its unprecedented for other classes. You'd need to make a ranger,mage, and summoner equivalent of Night's Edge and Terra Blade first.

not at all. Pattern adherence is not necessary to create new weapons. That’s why SDMG isn’t made from Megashark even though Megashark is made from Minishark, and it’s also why Terrarian does literally anything besides being just a yoyo.

 

[Meowlegend]

I’m absolutely going to be mad about it because that design is ing boring and antithetical to the concept of player choice.

Zenith isnt a boring design honestly (to me, at least)

 

[Dapling]

Zenith isnt a boring design honestly (to me, at least)

The weapon isn’t the part that’s boring, it’s that there’s only one weapon that’s worth using. Again, it’s antithetical to the concept of player choice to have there be exactly one option that outclasses everything else, and zenith is intentionally designed that way.

 

[Orchamut]

I don't think the Zenith is actually a problem, but I also think that more weapons on-tier with it wouldn't be a pointless addition.
It depends on how you look at it, and everyone has a different opinion about it because they see it in different ways.

On the one hand, after you've defeated Moon Lord enough to get it, the Zenith is essentially just a useful tool to get rid of enemies quickly, rather than a weapon with its own playstyle and whatnot. Like other tools such as the Grand Design, Celestial Starboard, and the Laser Drill, it's fine without any alternatives. Plus, the core mechanic of Melee weapons is generally free damage on click, while Ranged, Magic, and Summon are all a little more complicated than that, so it might be hard to think of Ranged/Magic/Summon weapons on-par with the Zenith that people would actually use over it without taking class preferences into account.

On the other hand though, unlike some people I don't think progression should become entirely meaningless after Moon Lord. Partly because I'm someone who finds OOA tier 3 to be a lot harder than Moon Lord, and kind of need the gear from him to even stand a chance.. The idea of grinding Moon Lord a few times and keeping some random items from progression to obtain some melee weapon designed to delete everything with no effort is kind of jarring, especially if you're playing through the game without using melee weapons. Not to mention how it makes every single other post-Moon Lord weapon pretty much pointless. Does anyone even remember having fun running all over with the Meowmere these days?

So I think alternatives to the Zenith could be a healthy thing for the game, but I also don't think the game is really lacking anything without them.

 

[Salty_]

The weapon isn’t the part that’s boring, it’s that there’s only one weapon that’s worth using. Again, it’s antithetical to the concept of player choice to have there be exactly one option that outclasses everything else, and zenith is intentionally designed that way.

That argument would hold water if there was any boss or event post-moonlord. Anything that needs to be done that the Zenith can accomplish.

However, once you beat moonlord, the game is done. You don't have to do anything anymore. Zenith, the luminite armors, and the weapons are all strictly speaking useless.

On a very technical level, Zenith outclasses nothing, because you cannot get it without first having done everything you'd do with it. It is never a useful part of progression.

 

[Flint🪓]

That argument would hold water if there was any boss or event post-moonlord.

Don´t worry pal, just wait till red releases Terraria 1.4.8 in 2029

 

[Dapling]

That argument would hold water if there was any boss or event post-moonlord. Anything that needs to be done that the Zenith can accomplish.

However, once you beat moonlord, the game is done. You don't have to do anything anymore. Zenith, the luminite armors, and the weapons are all strictly speaking useless.

On a very technical level, Zenith outclasses nothing, because you cannot get it without first having done everything you'd do with it. It is never a useful part of progression.

This argument would hold water if there was actually nothing to do in post moon lord.
Post moon lord is not a “game is done” tier. It’s where the game opens up and finally becomes a true sandbox. You can do literally anything you want like testing out different interactions between items or glitch hunting. Discrediting the entire tier just because you don’t personally like it is not fair.
Building requires efficiency when killing enemies so you don’t have to stop building and waste time for as long as less efficient weapons. Zenith outclasses the other post moon lord drops because it deals twice as much dps as the last prism WHEN BOTH ARE ON A MAGIC BUILD while having just as much crowd control and ignoring walls.
Acting like post moon lord doesn’t exist just because it doesn’t fit your playstyle and you’d rather just speedrun through the whole game over and over again is shortsighted and dismissive towards other playstyles. Disregarding those is incredibly arrogant and belittling towards everyone who has ever done literally anything in this game besides progress through it over and over.
Why bother with player choice in a sandbox tier? Consider this: not everyone wants to use the same weapon all the time and be punished for not doing so. It’s boring design and discourages picking a weapon that matches your character thematically and visually.

 

[Flint🪓]

This argument would hold water if there was actually nothing to do in post moon lord.
Post moon lord is not a “game is done” tier. It’s where the game opens up and finally becomes a true sandbox. You can do literally anything you want like testing out different interactions between items or glitch hunting. Discrediting the entire tier just because you don’t personally like it is not fair.
Building requires efficiency when killing enemies so you don’t have to stop building and waste time for as long as less efficient weapons. Zenith outclasses the other post moon lord drops because it deals twice as much dps as the last prism WHEN BOTH ARE ON A MAGIC BUILD while having just as much crowd control and ignoring walls.
Acting like post moon lord doesn’t exist just because it doesn’t fit your playstyle and you’d rather just speedrun through the whole game over and over again is shortsighted and dismissive towards other playstyles. Disregarding those is incredibly arrogant and belittling towards everyone who has ever done literally anything in this game besides progress through it over and over.
Why bother with player choice in a sandbox tier? Consider this: not everyone wants to use the same weapon all the time and be punished for not doing so.

Pretty sure than having 3 minion slots with stardust dragon/terraprisma would be enough for that. Or even better, just play summoner and your minions will do all the work .

Alr jokes aside if you don´t wanna deal with enemies 3 terraprisma, or heck even 2 would be enough to keep random enemies at bay. The only thing that the zenith would do better is re-fighing bosses and events but it´s not mandatory, it´s not like idk, a Pumpking would survive long enough while using last prism to cause you any trouble.

But having the zenith as a trophie (and weapon) after all the work it feels nice.

 

[Dapling]

Pretty sure than having 3 minion slots with stardust dragon/terraprisma would be enough for that. Or even better, just play summoner and your minions will do all the work .

Ever had a naturally spawned solar eclipse drop in while you were building? Pretty sure not even terraprisma can handle that (in fact, I tested and not even stardust armor with terraprisma can).

The only thing that the zenith would do better is re-fighing bosses and events but it´s not mandatory, it´s not like idk, a Pumpking would survive long enough while using last prism to cause you any trouble.

so the addition of zenith wasn’t necessary to begin with.

But having the zenith as a trophie (and weapon) after all the work it needs feels nice.

what’s the issue with adding more trophies to work towards then? Wouldn’t it feel even nicer to collect them all?

 

[Beyond]

This is an argument Ouroborus. Both sides have decent points, but not enough to convince the other.

Personally, I'd like they're to be more things on the same "tier" as Zenith, even if not made in a similar fashion. But at the same time, having a weapon(s) objectively be better than literally everything else even in class-specific gear feels... odd.

While I can see the cases both ends are making... I say it's best to agree-to-disagree.

 

[Flint🪓]

Ever had a naturally spawned solar eclipse drop in while you were building? Pretty sure not even terraprisma can handle that (in fact, I tested and not even stardust armor with terraprisma can).

Full warding defensive setup/Full menancing glass cannon setup
(Both of these without buffs and in master mode).

Using a defensive setup it would be true though, with 7 terraprismas it kinda struggled agaisnt normal eclipse enemies, and killing mothron was really hard due to all the enemies on screen.

With the glass cannon on the other hand it was much easier actually, most enemies were killed in like 2-3 hits, when a mothron spawned it took like 10 seconds or more to kill it.
(Mind you each eclipse like 2-3 mothrons spawn, 4 at most). The only time I had to mode was whena mothron spawned.

so the addition of zenith wasn’t necessary to begin with.

I mean, buffing starwrath and meowmere would have been enough and actually both have been getting some buffs that really helps the weapons such as local-Iframes for the starwrath and static-Iframes with the meowmere. Not that im mad about the zenith addition (see below).

what’s the issue with adding more trophies to work towards then? Wouldn’t it feel even nicer to collect them all?

Im dumb, I meant that it was a NICE feeling after finally getting the Zenith, both as a trophy and weapon. Whoopsie

 

[Dapling]

This is an argument Ouroborus. Both sides have decent points, but not enough to convince the other.

I actually used to disregard post moon lord too. Truth is, eventually playing through the game and never slowing down does get boring after a while and at that point playing the game in post moon lord was incredibly good thing for me to discover. It’s saddening that zenith was added because nearly every weapon was finally made comparable to each other in 1.4:

• Last prism had the highest dps, but it also required the most build dedication and inventory slots out of all the post moon lord weapons, and couldn’t hit outside of line of sight.
• Lunar flare has the build dedication issues of last prism with lower damage, but could hit through walls to balance it out.
• Celebration mk2 had a chance to fire red rockets which were a piercing projectile with NO iframes, meaning it was normally only decently powerful but could become the strongest weapon in the game with luck and positioning.
• SDMG was a very straightforward and easy to understand weapon which didn’t have any special utilities but didn’t really need it. You click on an enemy and they die. no additional build dedication required.
• Terrarian had abysmal iframe issues and as a result was the only moon lord drop with no niche
• Meowmere and Star wrath were finally, FINALLY given local immunity frames. This alongside solar armor’s buff and nebula armor’s nerf meant that they could actually compete with all the rest with no build dedication, even last prism, in exchange for most of their dps being the close range broadsword.
• Lunar Portal Staff and Rainbow Crystal Staff were finally very good at mulitarget and single target respectively with little opportunity cost at all, and could work with any other weapon.

And then they added Zenith in the same update and patched out the celebration mk2’s red rocket lacking iframes, destroying this entire dynamic and forcing everyone into using the new toy, thereby rendering all of these balancing/design decisions and changes moot.
For years all the post moon lord players who actually wanted to try out different weapons for protection instead of just using one or two FINALLY had what they wanted (even if it wasn’t perfect due to Terrarian being weak)… and then it didn’t matter, because the Zenith stomped on all of it and was better than everything else at literally everything.

Full warding defensive setup/Full menancing glass cannon setup
(Both of these without buffs and in master mode).

Using a defensive setup it would be true though, with 7 terraprismas it kinda struggled agaisnt normal eclipse enemies, and killing mothron was really hard due to all the enemies on screen.

With the glass cannon on the other hand it was much easier actually, most enemies were killed in like 2-3 hits, when a mothron spawned it took like 10 seconds or more to kill it.
(Mind you each eclipse like 2-3 mothrons spawn, 4 at most). The only time I had to mode was whena mothron spawned.

Unfortunately the reason I specified building was because you would have building gear on. Hand of creation, toolbelt, toolbox, etc. Glass cannon builds and defensive builds are generally not compatible with those. No, you need zenith.

I mean, buffing starwrath and meowmere would have been enough and actually both have been getting some buffs that really helps the weapon such as local-Iframes for the starwrath and static-Iframes with the meowmere. Not that im mad about the zenith addition (see below).

Exactly

Im dumb, I meant that it was a NICE feeling after finally getting the Zenith, both as a trophy and weapon. Whoopsie

I know, I was asking you why you don’t want even more trophies to be added that compete with zenith and would feel just as nice to obtain, and provide an even nicer feeling once you have them all and could choose between them.

 

[Meowlegend]

I mean, buffing starwrath and meowmere would have been enough and actually both have been getting some buffs that really helps the weapons such as local-Iframes for the starwrath and static-Iframes with the meowmere. Not that im mad about the zenith addition (see below).

Starwrath and Meowmere are kinda boring to me compared to what other classes get as their "ultimate" weapons. Personally I think its cool to to have an upgraded Starfury and a Cat sword, but looking at to the Zenith, they dont feel as clean as the Zenith.

 

[Flint🪓]

I actually used to disregard post moon lord too. Truth is, eventually playing through the game and never slowing down does get boring after a while and at that point playing the game in post moon lord was incredibly good thing for me to discover. It’s saddening that zenith was added because nearly every weapon was finally made comparable to each other in 1.4:

• Last prism had the highest dps, but it also required the most build dedication and inventory slots out of all the post moon lord weapons, and couldn’t hit outside of line of sight.
• Lunar flare has the build dedication issues of last prism with lower damage, but could hit through walls to balance it out.
• Celebration mk2 had a chance to fire red rockets which were a piercing projectile with NO iframes, meaning it was normally only decently powerful but could become the strongest weapon in the game with luck and positioning.
• SDMG was a very straightforward and easy to understand weapon which didn’t have any special utilities but didn’t really need it. You click on an enemy and they die. no additional build dedication required.
• Terrarian had abysmal iframe issues and as a result was the only moon lord drop with no niche
• Meowmere and Star wrath were finally, FINALLY given local immunity frames. This alongside solar armor’s buff and nebula armor’s nerf meant that they could actually compete with all the rest with no build dedication, even last prism, in exchange for most of their dps being the close range broadsword.
• Lunar Portal Staff and Rainbow Crystal Staff were finally very good at mulitarget and single target respectively with little opportunity cost at all, and could work with any other weapon.

And then they added Zenith in the same update and patched out the celebration mk2’s red rocket lacking iframes, destroying this entire dynamic and forcing everyone into using the new toy, thereby rendering all of these balancing/design decisions and changes moot.
For years all the post moon lord players who actually wanted to try out different weapons for protection instead of just using one or two FINALLY had what they wanted (even if it wasn’t perfect due to Terrarian being weak)… and then it didn’t matter, because the Zenith stomped on all of it and was better than everything else at literally everything.

In a nutshell, this is why I said adding the zenith was a mistake, it ruined this. But nvm now.

Unfortunately the reason I specified building was because you would have building gear on. Hand of creation, toolbelt, toolbox, etc. Glass cannon builds and defensive builds are generally not compatible with those. No, you need zenith.

Even using the accesories you said it still did fine so I think it is pretty viable, but for mothrons pulling out the zenith and shredding them would be optimal since that are quite more annoying using this setup.

Btw, behold the wooden pyramid I built to test how it went when actually building stuff.

I know, I was asking you why you don’t want even more trophies to be added that compete with zenith and would feel just as nice to obtain, and provide an even nicer feeling once you have them all and could choose between them.

Didn´t say I did not want more "trophies", there more goals I can have post-moonlord the better.

 

[Dapling]

Didn´t say I did not want more "trophies", there more goals I can have post-moonlord the better

So in truth we actually do both want more alternatives to zenith, then?

 

[Flint🪓]

So in truth we actually do both want more alternatives to zenith, then?

Kinda, but for example how would a zenith version for summoners? What makes the zenith... well the zenith is that it has really high dps and only needs 2 brain cells to use. I can kinda see how it would work for ranged. But what about mage and summoner?

I just have mixed feelings about it but not really agaisnt it.

 

[Dapling]

But what about mage and summoner

With mage you can just give it low mana cost. Mana regen potions and the mana hotkey make it pretty trivial to refill your mana.
With summoner it would have to be a whip, as minions use their own dedicated slot and that slot needs competition too.

 

[Beyond]

Kinda, but for example how would a zenith version for summoners? What makes the zenith... well the zenith is that it has really high dps and only needs 2 brain cells to use. I can kinda see how it would work for ranged. But what about mage and summoner?

I just have mixed feelings about it but not really agaisnt it.

Beeg Whip