Game Mechanics The Problems with Damage Variance and a possible solution.

[Dapling]

I would like to preface this by stating that I do not want to remove damage variance outright, and that is not what this suggestion will be about. Damage variance is one of the oldest parts of this game and I do not expect the developers to make such a radical change to a mechanic this old so late in the game’s lifespan.

Before we get into the issues with damage variance, I would like to explain what it even is. For those that are not aware, all damage numbers in terraria (with some rare exceptions such as Lava) both dealt by enemies and players, are multiplied by a range anywhere from 0.85-1.15, effectively meaning that there is a 15% variance in both directions on every hit.
This mechanic serves to add flavor to the game and some aesthetic appeal for some, and is a mechanic found in several old rpgs which Terraria takes inspiration from. This is why I believe outright removing it would not be a productive route to go down and not one the developers would likely be on board with.

“But what’s the problem here?” You may ask. Well…

• It makes it more difficult to accurately gauge the effectiveness of damage increases or decreases not present in the tooltip, such as defense on both enemies and players as well as ways to lower these defenses such as Shark Tooth Necklace and Sharpening Station.
• In addition, it also makes it more difficult to tell what your whip tags are actually contributing to your total damage, especially in situations like the Blade Staff which multiplies your tag damage by 0.75, which is present in the tooltip but difficult to actually gauge in practice due to the fact that all of the numbers display differently, unless you do mental math which not everyone is willing or able to do, hindering the game’s accessibility.
• it makes testing with the dps meter highly inconsistent and often a waiting game of rolling a bunch of tests for “peaks” and “valleys” in the number it displays, resulting in most tests either using the “peaks” or just averaging several random numbers, both leading to inaccurate results and possible misinformation unintentionally and dividing the community on weapon viability.
• Especially around the 150-250 enemy damage range, it can cause players to live or die based on pure RNG. If you take a hit that has 200 base damage, there is approximately a 50% chance it will deal less than 200 damage and a 50% chance it will deal more. This means you have a 50/50 chance to have your health either brought to above half or below half and there is basically no way to predict it. Meaning the RNG gods can basically decide if you’ll die in two hits or three and there is nothing you can do about it.
• it obscures the game’s mechanics in a way that prevents bugs from being found sooner. I guarantee you the bugs where Blade Staff could deal extra damage with armor penetration, Sanguine staff was hitting twice as much as it was supposed to, and Raven staff was resetting immunity frames would have been found months if not years sooner had damage variance not muddied the numbers a bit.

So, with all of this in mind, my proposal is to add a toggle in settings, right next to the autofire toggle, which disables Damage Variance. I will now go over a few possible problems this setting might create, and some ways to address them.

“What about multiplayer?”
Thankfully, terraria is coded in such a way where the client manages the damage numbers dealt and taken by its corresponding player and sends these numbers to the other clients! This means that people who have damage variance turned off will deal consistent numbers independently of the people who have damage variance turned on, and players will be able to see the numbers dealt and taken by each other without issue or desync. This means such a setting would require no additional netcode on the devs’ part. I don’t know how PVP damage works, but hopefully it works similarly enough to regular situations that it wouldn’t have any issues.

“Will having this setting enabled or disabled give you an unfair advantage?”
A valid concern, but no, it will not. Damage variance is equally likely to help you as it is to hurt you, which averages out to a an average net zero advantage/disadvantage between having the setting turned off and turned on.

“What about the Luck stat? That affects Damage Variance too!”
This is the most problematic part of this suggestion, but I do have a proposed solution. Because on average, 0.01 luck is a multiplicative 0.05% increase to your total dps, simply make every 0.01 luck increase your damage by a multiplicative 0.05%, reversing this process for negative luck. If you would like luck to remain a purely chance based effect, apply this multiplier to critical strike chance instead.

I will address any other possible issues as they come up in this post’s comments.

TL;DR: Add a toggle for damage variance. This should be done tor accessibility reasons as well as others.

 

[maladriot]

I feel like this isn't that big of an issue especially since you can see your dps which gives a pretty decent indicator of how much you're doing, but I could also see this idea working as an accessory or maybe like a shimmer upgrade that can go both ways

 

[Coleyohley]

I feel like this isn't that big of an issue especially since you can see your dps which gives a pretty decent indicator of how much you're doing, but I could also see this idea working as an accessory or maybe like a shimmer upgrade that can go both ways

Did you... read the post? Damage Variance is a big reason why you can' t rely on something like a DPS meter, which was outlined in the post.

Turning damage variance off is also not a benefit to your overall performance, so it doesn't make any sense to take up an accessory slot. A clientside toggle is just about the only option that makes sense.

 

[Dapling]

I feel like this isn't that big of an issue especially since you can see your dps which gives a pretty decent indicator of how much you're doing, but I could also see this idea working as an accessory or maybe like a shimmer upgrade that can go both ways

Unfortunately due to several factors which all influence the dps meter’s functionality such as framerate and game speed,that’s actually not really the case at all. I addressed other issues with the dps meter in my post as well.

 

[Leaffen]

I want this in the game more than anything. (Well, maybe not silent wiring, but I digress.)

Damage variance has always been a pain for me, breaking wiring machines if they use enemies and need to quickly kill one, making tests for damage and killtimes wildy inconsistant, and is more noticeably frustrating than helpful. Not to mention it's just... random chance that doesn't need to be random.

I get it's meant to be for flavor and references old rpgs, but I much prefer a nice, consistant, and easy to follow experience with damage numbers.

The fact this is easy to add as a setting, and has no strict advantage/disadvantage, makes me have high hopes it will be added. It SHOULD be added.

 

[Kittycat7070]

I think the game would be better without damage variance when you take into consideration that damage variance adds nothing to the gameplay except making dps tests harder.

 

[Coleyohley]

I think the game would be better without damage variance when you take into consideration that damage variance adds nothing to the gameplay except making dps tests harder.

It does add an element of visual variety to your attacks, which I know many people enjoy, so it would need to be optional. Your own damage variance really isn't a benefit or a hindrance to the gameplay itself, so a setting makes the most sense.

 

[Big Sammich]

Yeah, this seems good to me. It does nothing but make your DPS more consistent.

 

[OtherGeneric_User]

Although it is possible to obtain data with a 95%/99% confidence level even with the 15% damage variance using kill times and the dps meter, it is impossible to deny that if there were a way to eliminate that variance of ~15% the process to obtain reliable and consistent data would be much more agile and simpler both for the technical community and a little for the common player (assuming that a test dummy was not used to test the dps).
That's why I support adding an option in the settings section to remove this variance

 

[TurboClide]

Very nieche detail. I will never use it if it would be used.

This is cool for Terraria test version for devs. So they can spot bugs.

 

[MegaByte]

I think it's too nieche to put next to autofire, most people wouldn't even understand what that means.

it should be one of those settings you change by editing config.json, most people don't care about 100% accuracy they just want a decent idea on a weapon's DPS.
But this would be very useful for some people.

Especially around the 150-250 enemy damage range, it can cause players to live or die based on pure RNG. If you take a hit that has 200 base damage, there is approximately a 50% chance it will deal less than 200 damage and a 50% chance it will deal more. This means you have a 50/50 chance to have your health either brought to above half or below half and there is basically no way to predict it. Meaning the RNG gods can basically decide if you’ll die in two hits or three and there is nothing you can do about it.

It's more fun to roll the dice, it's not always about rewarding skill.

Having 25% droprate is better than having a garunteed drop on 4th kill.
as an example if one gets lucky on getting RoD early you can use RoD in this playthrough for a change, if one gets unlucky on it maybe this time you learn to dodge 'that' attack without it.

As for damage RNG elements like Brain of Confusion, MNG, crit chance, luck, falling stars and damage variance. because of them sometimes you can get a lucky kill on a boss you're struggling with and it also increases level of skill required to get a 'guaranteed' kill.

That's why even world gen is random.

Small elements like this adds up and makes the game a lot less bland and adds more variety for replaying players imo, only RNG based punishment I'd change is bigass BoC teleporting directly onto you in legendary mode, almost everything else if not everything else has a fair amount of RNG based rewarding without crossing the line of being too much RNG reliant. I'm not against the suggestion btw but I don't think this one crosses the line of too much RNG to list as a "problem".

 

[Dapling]

I think it's too nieche to put next to autofire, most people wouldn't even understand what that means.

it should be one of those settings you change by editing config.json, most people don't care about 100% accuracy they just want a decent idea on a weapon's DPS.
But this would be very useful for some people.

It's more fun to roll the dice, it's not always about rewarding skill.

Having 25% droprate is better than having a garunteed drop on 4th kill.
as an example if one gets lucky on getting RoD early you can use RoD in this playthrough for a change, if one gets unlucky on it maybe this time you learn to dodge 'that' attack without it.

As for damage RNG elements like Brain of Confusion, MNG, crit chance, luck, falling stars and damage variance. because of them sometimes you can get a lucky kill on a boss you're struggling with and it also increases level of skill required to get a 'guaranteed' kill.

That's why even world gen is random.

Small elements like this adds up and makes the game a lot less bland and adds more variety for replaying players imo, only RNG based punishment I'd change is bigass BoC teleporting directly onto you in legendary mode, almost everything else if not everything else has a fair amount of RNG based rewarding without crossing the line of being too much RNG reliant. I'm not against the suggestion btw but I don't think this one crosses the line of too much RNG to list as a "problem".

Actually there is a reason for consistency when taking damage and I probably should have brought it up in my main post but forgot to. Wiring contraptions when you need to lower the player or enemy’s health to a certain point without killing them are wildly inconsistent because there’s too much randomness when damage is dealt to them.

I also agree that there needs to be RNG in the game for it to feel good, but there comes a point where it feels like too much and damage variance is too much. You already got punished for making a mistake by losing half of your health bar, it’s not fair to get punished further just because the game doesn’t like you today.

 

[MegaByte]

Wiring contraptions when you need to lower the player or enemy’s health to a certain point without killing them are wildly inconsistent because there’s too much randomness when damage is dealt to them.

Yeah I agree, but like I said there are very nice uses for some people but they are too niche to place it next to autofire, because having damage variance is the more suitable and better way for 99%+ of players/situations.

Also maybe this wiring thing is not a problem, maybe you just aren't meant to easily make 1hp enemies/players using wiring contraptions but idk I'm not a wiring guy.

I also agree that there needs to be RNG in the game for it to feel good, but there comes a point where it feels like too much and damage variance is too much. You already got punished for making a mistake by losing half of your health bar, it’s not fair to get punished further just because the game doesn’t like you today.

Worse case scenario you lose 15% more HP when you lose half of it, and there's a chance to take less damage, like I said this doesn't seem like too much RNG, 15% seems like just the right amount to make things interesting.

 

[Dapling]

because having damage variance is the more suitable and better way for 99%+ of players/situations.

Judging by the pretty overwhelming support this suggestion has gotten (seriously, this is probably my first suggestion to ever get over a dozen likes within a day of me posting it), I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

 

[Coleyohley]

Judging by the pretty overwhelming support this suggestion has gotten (seriously, this is probably my first suggestion to ever get over a dozen likes within a day of me posting it), I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

It should also be noted just how easy this would be to implement. In fact, the feature already exists in Developer testing versions. It's purely clientside too, and since it has no benefits or disadvantages, it's a no-brainer.

 

[CannedPotato]

I am not sure if it has been pointed out but there is one rather niche case where removing damage rolls lowers overall dps output.Your luck stat may make you roll the damage twice and take the higher or lower number depending on if it is positive or negative.
I do think that there is a specific feeling to damage variation that makes damage output more real-feeling but having it be an option to toggle doesn't sound harmful at all.

 

[Dapling]

I am not sure if it has been pointed out but there is one rather niche case where removing damage rolls lowers overall dps output.Your luck stat may make you roll the damage twice and take the higher or lower number depending on if it is positive or negative.

I addressed luck in the main post by adding a slight damage or critical strike chance multiplier while the setting is active.

Because on average, 0.01 luck is a multiplicative 0.05% increase to your total dps, simply make every 0.01 luck increase your damage by a multiplicative 0.05%, reversing this process for negative luck. If you would like luck to remain a purely chance based effect, apply this multiplier to critical strike chance instead.

 

[NateTheGameK]

As a speedkiller, modder, balancer, and many other things, I absolutely despise damage variance. It's useless luck that adds nothing but makes life harder for mob engine designers and speedkillers, and as previously mentioned the luck stat could easily be modified to accommodate for this.

It's more fun to roll the dice, it's not always about rewarding skill.

Small elements like this adds up and makes the game a lot less bland and adds more variety for replaying players imo, only RNG based punishment I'd change is bigass BoC teleporting directly onto you in legendary mode, almost everything else if not everything else has a fair amount of RNG based rewarding without crossing the line of being too much RNG reliant. I'm not against the suggestion btw but I don't think this one crosses the line of too much RNG to list as a "problem".

As for this, I see no way in hell that damage variance is a fun mechanic in the slightest. It's literally just there for the purpose of inconsistency, and while luck can be fun (worldgen and drop chances may be flawed but are fundamentally part of a sandbox game like Terraria), damage variance adds nothing but frustration and makes optimizing, testing, and comparing weapons much more difficult.

I support.

 

[Leaffen]

I think it's too nieche to put next to autofire, most people wouldn't even understand what that means.

it should be one of those settings you change by editing config.json, most people don't care about 100% accuracy they just want a decent idea on a weapon's DPS.
But this would be very useful for some people.

Uh... every player knows what damage variance is, it's one of the first mechanics you're introduced to when you attack or get attacked by anything.
And keeping a pretty important setting away from console/mobile players, would be pretty bad.

 

[MegaByte]

Judging by the pretty overwhelming support this suggestion has gotten , I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

I support it too but that doesn't mean I'd use it, even if I did use that would be only for testing DPS not for a normal playthrough.

Also It's the forums, If you're in a forums of a game you're likely a pretty advanced player at least compared to others, so ofc all the advanced players/technical players are here they'd use that for testing and wiring. If you make a list of underused weapons people In forums would say that they use it(that happened to bladestaff).

and lastly I didn't say 99%+ people wouldn't prefer it, I said "better way for 99%+ of players/situations. people play Minecraft with keepinventory and then get bored because of lack of challenge, people mod skyrim with huge modlists to get bored in 2 hours, even people in Terraria commiunity install too many 'QoL' mods to turn the game into a bland boss rush and then gets tired of the game, people's preferences aren't always right, I gave reasons explaining why it's like that in this case(if majority would prefer it, can't say that from a fourm thread).

(seriously, this is probably my first suggestion to ever get over a dozen likes within a day of me posting it)

Hmm I'm a little jealous, my first suggestion only got a non-support comment by a misunderstood user who didn't read the suggestion

As for this, I see no way in hell that damage variance is a fun mechanic in the slightest. It's literally just there for the purpose of inconsistency, and while luck can be fun

Yeah it adds inconsistency that's the point? I explained what damage variance adds to the game already and why it's better, if you have actual reasons why they're wrong I'd like to see.

but are fundamentally part of a sandbox game like Terraria)

Not really, as an example boss drops aren't random in valheim a sandbox survival game. and big chunk of the games that are called "open world sandbox" doesn't have random world gen

if by 'flawed' you mean they're bad game mechanics they can remove them they are not mandatory for sandbox games, then that would turn Terraria into a bland game with less replayability

damage variance adds nothing but frustration and makes optimizing, testing, and comparing weapons much more difficult.

Yeah that's why I support the suggestion, but would a normal playthrough be better without damage variance? ofc not.

Uh... every player knows what damage variance is, it's one of the first mechanics you're introduced to when you attack or get attacked by anything.
And keeping a pretty important setting away from console/mobile players, would be pretty bad.

Forgot about other platforms tbh I guess devs could put it somewhere else that fits but it's not something that fits first page of pause menu(unless there's no other place to put it).

But no most people wouldn't know what "damage variance" would be referring to, they'd know that damages are random if I saw this when I first started playing I wouldn't know if this converts all class damages to one type, removes crit chance or what

(I don't speak English but too lazy to recheck all this for English errors so ignore them I guess)