tModLoader The Thorium Mod

I hope its clear that my decision on that matter isn't because of my lack of receptiveness to others opinions and observations. I don't disagree that the earlier sets are a tad bland, its just a personal choice to have those sets remain within the mod as they are. :(
Oh, my last point was just in regards to developers in general. You've shown to be quite receptive and inclusive with all you've contributed to this game and its community. :happy:

This is really the main reason I take issue with the criticism coming from Kefke.
 
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All in all, balance and progression are entirely up to Diverman. And same goes for vanilla Terraria. You don't go complaining to the devs that copper and tin armor is useless do you? In any game, there are bound to be things that might end up useless and underutilised. But that does not detract from their value. They are there to add spice to the game and a great degree of freedom to players who wander off the beaten path, and appreciate the mere variety and diversity of content. Don't forget die hard collectors or people that are entirely new to the content, where every discovery is a new adventure.

How much game content or mechanics is up to the developer, and how fun or useful they are is entirely up to the player.
Once again, for the people not paying attention, copper and tin aren't useless. Not only is copper the base tier you start the game with, but both are abundant at surface level. They are well balanced to the point in the game at which they become available to you...and that is the entire basis to my complaint. Most content in Thorium, particularly in Prehard, is not. Generally speaking, it lags one or two tiers behind the level of progress needed to get it. I use Sandstone as an example, because it is currently the most glaring example. Ice is pretty poor too, but has decent effects, and aside from RNG (a problem shared with Petal) is easier to farm for (and arguably available sooner) if you have the patience.

To get Sandstone, though, you must farm Iron, kill antlions for their mandibles, survive at least one night to harvest stars for arcane dust, find a demon altar, kill a boss, and obtain an anvil to craft the equipment - whether by purchase, craft, or found while spelunking. In return, you get equipment that is roughly sidegrade to the base starting equipment you get for free with a new character. Since you will need multiple flares to get a full set, you could just advance to Iron instead, and it would probably be quicker. All that time and effort could be better spent on advancing to literally any other tier past Copper and Iron, and be better spent.

In short, the work to make use of the equipment does not present an option for an alternative play style. It presents an option for deliberately holding yourself back and delaying your progress. It is, in short, a handicap. For the armour, this almost works, due to cool abilities. For the tools and weapons, it's a no-go. Not only are they only debatably better than starting gear, the weapons in particular are straight up outclassed by the items dropped by the very boss you must farm to make them. If you make the full Sandstone set, and don't have a better weapon than the Sandstone Scimitar (and bow, if you're on Expert) by the end of it, then file a bug report because something is seriously wrong with your RNG.

That's not a quibble, that's a genuine design flaw.


Oh, my last point was just in regards to developers in general. You've shown to be quite receptive and inclusive with all you've contributed to this game and its community. :happy:

This is really the main reason I take issue with the criticism coming from Kefke.

If you've got a problem, take it to PMs, buddy.

However, I absolutely can speak with authority here, both as a designer, and a player. I'm not talking about subjective opinion. I'm talking about strictly objective values - stats of items, time to tier, and level of progression needed to advance. Those aren't arguable. They're facts, and the facts are, that the time and effort needed to get an awful lot of the content in this mod is not proportionate to the level of character advancement the player sees in return, and in most cases it would take a very minor tweak to fix. Very small bump in stats here, an increased drop chance there. Maybe, in some extreme cases, locking Vanilla progress markers to the completion of Thorium tasks. My point is that, on the whole, the problems here are minor, but noticeable, and the most aggravating part of them is the sheer minimal amount of necessary effort that isn't being taken to fix them.
 
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The thing is Sandstone armor provides one of the best pre-hardmode mobility effects in the game. It also has Throwing bonuses which makes it desireable for early game. The weapons you make from it are ALSO very useful for throwers in particular. The tools and melee weapons are meh but thats perfectly fine. You're looking at straight defense in terms of other iron sets and stuff when you need to factor in other things. The Grand thunderbird is also very useful for rangers and summoners giving them both an easy access fairly useful weapon early on.

I'll flat out say this but the defense bonus from basic ore armor is NOT worth the effort. Especially at such low tiers like IRON. If you're a thrower you will DEFINITELY want to kill this bird as its a good way to stock up on tons of throwing items to get you through other challenges.
 
The thing is Sandstone armor provides one of the best pre-hardmode mobility effects in the game. It also has Throwing bonuses which makes it desireable for early game. The weapons you make from it are ALSO very useful for throwers in particular. The tools and melee weapons are meh but thats perfectly fine. You're looking at straight defense in terms of other iron sets and stuff when you need to factor in other things. The Grand thunderbird is also very useful for rangers and summoners giving them both an easy access fairly useful weapon early on.

I'll flat out say this but the defense bonus from basic ore armor is NOT worth the effort. Especially at such low tiers like IRON. If you're a thrower you will DEFINITELY want to kill this bird as its a good way to stock up on tons of throwing items to get you through other challenges.

I don't disagree entirely, but I do disagree. While you generally won't try to make every tier of ore armour, the fact is that defence is a big deal, especially in the early stages of both modes. You eventually pass a threshold in each where raw damage reduction is less important (though never unimportant), but not immediately. Also, the value of movement abilities is highly dependant on player skill, whereas raw defence value is not. As you say, iron is not a major upgrade, though, simply a better option if you don't wish to start at copper. Also, keep in mind I'm talking less about the armour, and more about the equipment. Those two reasons are exactly why Sandstone would be a much better option at Iron-tier than Copper-tier, where it would be rewarding to all types of players, and feel like the choice not to skip the Thunderbird and go hunting gold and silver early on was a viable option.

Or, better still, make the Sandstone bars craftable from the Hardened Sand and Sandstone found underground, possibly mixed with Arcane Dust. While a more dangerous area than the surface, raids on the upper parts of the Antlion Den are still possible at low levels, with preparation. This would serve several purposes. First, the added abundance of the materials to craft the set make it more reasonable as a low-tier alternative (while the risk justifies a more powerful armour). Secondly, by de-coupling the set from the boss, the set weapons cease to be so strongly overshadowed by Uniques that otherwise drop before Sandstone items can even be made. Thirdly, this makes acquiring a new set of gear and gathering antlion parts needed to make the boss summon related tasks, so a player after one is likely to stumble on the other. Finally, and in my opinion most importantly, this would allow the Sandstone set to be used against the Thunderbird, a fight where the added mobility would really shine and the weapons could be used to great effect, allowing the uniqueness of the set to be showcased, and making the effort of acquiring it seem much more worthwhile even if it is replaced shortly after.
 
Iron armor takes forever to get. Sandstone armor can be obtained super quick and is amazing. It lasts no problem all the way up to Meteor armor, or ocean set, if you'd rather that, as both have similar defenses that are fine for beating your corrupt boss and then upgrading to that. Or heck, just go Danger Set, because it's amazing and suited for exploring the jungle.

I very, very much disagree with the notion that farming Thunderbird is "harder to farm" than just getting iron, for two reasons. First, Iron has many, many other uses I'd rather it go to. Second, thunderbird is easy. All you need is shurikens. No, all you need are fire arrows and a wood bow. The tools can then be made to be a slight upgrade to the copper ones, and it takes no time at all. The weapons can then be used to replace your shurikens/wooden bow. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that someone would always want to go underground and spend time down there first, when it's not necessary at all. I have personally used a number of the sandstone items, and I have personally found worth in some of the icy items, and I did it by doing something outside of the usual flowchart sequence of Terraria.

It's all in pathing. None of the pre hard Thorium sets are GREAT, except Sandstone (which I contend is the best armor available for EoC, assuming reasonable skill) and Danger, but they all have a place and the only one I've not used is Petal, since it's significantly grindier than the rest to get ahold of.
 
Let's break this post down then. Sandstone armor is a throwing set that grants amazing mobility and decent armor. The defense difference between the two is fairly negligible early on. Sandstone weapons are an alternative very early game weapons. Most people who play this game way too much don't even use ore weapons outside of bows instead choosing to pick up one of the many more useful weapons that are much much stronger. Sandstone weapons offer you a method of achieving a weapon BEFORE doing that. They're not the greatest weapons you can get early...but they're still decent weapons you can just make from a fairly quick and easy boss fight. The Sandstone daggers are also bountiful and offer a cheap and easy method of farming tons of throwing weapons to use.

The tools made from this set are generally not as useful, yes, but that's just an issue with tools in general. Most ores in the game are balanced around the previous tiers tools. It does offer a better alt to copper though. Now also killing the Thunderbird drops a very useful summoning weapon. It also drops a sword with a special effect on it and a ranged attack for melee. In expert it drops a unique bow that, while low damage, is very fast damage compared to anything else at that tier. Antlion mandibles are fairly easy to get by a romp in the desert especially if you encounter the immobile ones. Inside the tunnels its more dangerous but a small pair of walls and a hole makes quick work of them.

Now an alternate method of making them would be NICE yes but they're honestly not as bad as you make them out to be. Sandstone is achieved from an easy boss kill and offers an easy alternate method of achieving certain very very early weapons that usually need to be crafted from ore...or found in chests like the spear.
 
@General Milky With as little offence meant as possible, I find that you generally overestimate average player's skill.

@Chime I am going to have to contest the use of the word "decent" with you in regards to the armour value of Sandstone. It's better than wood. That's about it. Sandstone weapons, furthermore, aren't much use as an alternative when even the method required to make them delivers you something substantially better (any of the Thunderbird's direct-drop weapons). Meanwhile, I am glad to hear you agree that the tools are not very valuable, however I question how you can justify them as an alternative to the starting tools when any reasonable player will already have discarded some or all of their starting tools for a higher tier by the time they are obtained, with the current method.

I'm also going to have to take issue with you calling the Thunderbird a "very easy" boss, given its tendency to spam attacks, and its ability to hamper player movement. It generally requires either some very specific gear (which can require additional caving) and/or a specialized arena designed to counter the biggest threats. If playing in Expert, I would even argue that it can be substantially harder than EoC, partially depending on when and where you fight it (it also has an annoying habit of attacking while still offscreen as it flies in on Expert). Access to Sandstone armour before fighting it could actually go a long way to reducing the luck factor in having the right equipment to fight it, and make it easier to prepare for, thus allowing it to better serve as an introductory boss.
 
@General Milky With as little offence meant as possible, I find that you generally overestimate average player's skill.

@Chime I am going to have to contest the use of the word "decent" with you in regards to the armour value of Sandstone. It's better than wood. That's about it. Sandstone weapons, furthermore, aren't much use as an alternative when even the method required to make them delivers you something substantially better (any of the Thunderbird's direct-drop weapons). Meanwhile, I am glad to hear you agree that the tools are not very valuable, however I question how you can justify them as an alternative to the starting tools when any reasonable player will already have discarded some or all of their starting tools for a higher tier by the time they are obtained, with the current method.

I'm also going to have to take issue with you calling the Thunderbird a "very easy" boss, given its tendency to spam attacks, and its ability to hamper player movement. It generally requires either some very specific gear (which can require additional caving) and/or a specialized arena designed to counter the biggest threats. If playing in Expert, I would even argue that it can be substantially harder than EoC, partially depending on when and where you fight it (it also has an annoying habit of attacking while still offscreen as it flies in on Expert). Access to Sandstone armour before fighting it could actually go a long way to reducing the luck factor in having the right equipment to fight it, and make it easier to prepare for, thus allowing it to better serve as an introductory boss.
Mobility > Defense If you're not being hit then you're not taking damage. It offers enough defense to matter and gives you a free accessory high mobility item and throwing damage to boot. The materials to make the boss summoning weapons is exactly 5 iron/lead bars, 2 Antlion Mandibles, and 6 arcane dust. This equates to 15 iron/lead ore, 2 antlion mandibles, and 2 fallen stars. Literally items you can pick up just walking TO a desert. You can get this before anything else in the game. Compared to the 75 bars you need for full armor. They're justified as being where they are because you can get them before even upgrading a single piece of equipment at all.

Thunderbird IS an easy boss easily defeated by having two sets of elevated platforms extending to two different sides. One above you and one you stand on. Make it slightly long enough that you can run back and forth and you're pretty much golden. Throwing shurikens you find in chests/pots makes quick enough work of him or failing that you can use a bow and normal arrow or fire arrows.
 
There's no way EoC can be considered an easier boss than Thunderbird on expert. EoC is nigh undodgable, all you do to beat thunderbird is walk left/right and shoot up.

Regardless, if you wanna shut out argument by saying average players absolutely, positively need to overgear for a boss and hoarde all the defense in the world to win, that's on you, but it still doesn't change anything. Sandstone stuff drops from the easiest boss in the game, that can be challenged with shurikens and still be killed in under a minute. Sandstone armor still offers enough defense to get by and the set bonus effect is much better than the defense ore armors give. Icy stuff still is useful to beginning characters, and all sets after have uses that can make specific parts of the game easier than normal. Danger Duelshot for instance is one of the best bows in all of prehardmode, if you make sure to "shotgun" it so both arrows hit a target. The buff petal weapons bring is handy. Poison immunity is huge for the jungle, and the dash darksteel offers makes Star Scouter and WoF much easier to fight than the usual Crimson armor setup.

It all has a use. If you want to shut it down by saying you don't think many players would be good enough to leverage them, fine, but it doesn't make me wrong.
 
I haven't played this mod in a while, nor do I remember much about the bosses stuff tiers that you're talking about. But I'd like to give my two cents on the matter.

Firstly, the armor is fine. It is a pre-eye boss, who gives no armor anyways. Your other alternatives are mining, which few would want to do, blowing up orbs for meteorite, which can cause some trouble early on, fighting a later on boss, which can work fine depending on gear, fighting King Slime, which admittedly is pretty easy, going to the jungle, which is the jungle, or fishing for reaver shark for molten. For how early you can fight the boss, the armor is justified.

Secondly, the tools sound weak. I personally think they should be improved a bit. Obviously not as good as stuff from later bosses, like the eye that you can get a pretty good axe, or the worm/brain that you can get pretty good everything. Perhaps between silver and gold or so, rather then what sounds like copper and iron.

Thirdly, I don't remember the weapons very well, but the boss dropped bow and sword, and those throwing knifes. The knifes are extremely good for a thrower, those are fine. The bow is fine, considering it's an expert item. However, towards that, far as I can remember no expert items in vanilla are straight up weapons, I assume so they can be useful for all points in the game. Anywho, the sword is decent. It's got a beam, yeah, but it doesn't always fire, so it's fine how is. Summoning weapon, well, is less DPS then slime staff, if I remember right, but is less situational, so it's fine enough. I don't remember any other weapons, so yeah. Maybe a buff with the sandstone stuff to be between silver and gold as well?

Welp, those be me two cents, and if I hadn't seen so many posts about it I probably would have said nothing.
 
I haven't played this mod in a while, nor do I remember much about the bosses stuff tiers that you're talking about. But I'd like to give my two cents on the matter.

Firstly, the armor is fine. It is a pre-eye boss, who gives no armor anyways. Your other alternatives are mining, which few would want to do, blowing up orbs for meteorite, which can cause some trouble early on, fighting a later on boss, which can work fine depending on gear, fighting King Slime, which admittedly is pretty easy, going to the jungle, which is the jungle, or fishing for reaver shark for molten. For how early you can fight the boss, the armor is justified.

Secondly, the tools sound weak. I personally think they should be improved a bit. Obviously not as good as stuff from later bosses, like the eye that you can get a pretty good axe, or the worm/brain that you can get pretty good everything. Perhaps between silver and gold or so, rather then what sounds like copper and iron.

Thirdly, I don't remember the weapons very well, but the boss dropped bow and sword, and those throwing knifes. The knifes are extremely good for a thrower, those are fine. The bow is fine, considering it's an expert item. However, towards that, far as I can remember no expert items in vanilla are straight up weapons, I assume so they can be useful for all points in the game. Anywho, the sword is decent. It's got a beam, yeah, but it doesn't always fire, so it's fine how is. Summoning weapon, well, is less DPS then slime staff, if I remember right, but is less situational, so it's fine enough. I don't remember any other weapons, so yeah. Maybe a buff with the sandstone stuff to be between silver and gold as well?

Welp, those be me two cents, and if I hadn't seen so many posts about it I probably would have said nothing.
Tools are fairly weak because they're just upgrades to basic tools more or less anyways. Also the summoning weapon is slightly better then the Slime in terms of damage but its a ranged minion and it sometimes shoots fairly quickly at times. Slime is better for ground based enemies but slime staffs are also super pain in the butt to obtain.
 
Universally Applicable > Skill Gated, regarding your first point et al.
Defense can only carry you so far in any fight though. It's a given that being highly mobile is straight up better then being incredibly defensive.
 
Defense can only carry you so far in any fight though. It's a given that being highly mobile is straight up better then being incredibly defensive.
Conversely, most players aren't blessed with Yrimir levels of skill. They're not going to dodge every attack, and you can't just completely forego defence with no consequences.
 
Conversely, most players aren't blessed with Yrimir levels of skill. They're not going to dodge every attack, and you can't just completely forego defence with no consequences.

But you can, though. Look at summoners and mages, they have almost no defense at all.

You don't need to be Yrimir to not take damage.
 
Please, by all means, upload me a video of a 100% No-Damage playthrough.
Of course you'll take damage. Everyone does but you can survive the entire game on as little defense as possible from armor. This can be aided by accessories with Warding on them later. The honest truth is, though, that the more mobile you are the less likely you are to be hit thus the less likely you are to die.
 
Please, by all means, upload me a video of a 100% No-Damage playthrough.

Please, by all means, don't insult me, yourself, and all devs both vanilla and Thorium by acting like that one needs to play perfect to do well with low defense.

You know very, very well that hundreds of players spend the endgame with an entire 27 defense (platinum is 20) in their summoner set. You know as well as I do that they are able to beat the game.

Defense isn't everything, mobility is always the king no matter who you are, and combat in this game always has revolved around not getting hit too many times. Ergo, the entire argument of why Sandstone armor is good.
 
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