Game Mechanics Third world difficulty- Challenge mode.

Yeh or neh?

  • yeh.

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • neh

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • meh.

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • Other (Please comment!)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
I would assume this is self-explanatory, but I'll explain it anyway. Basically, people keep getting really fussed up when I make suggestions about removing cheese from expert mode, because they think it will make the game less fun, or remove the player's choice of difficulty. There is a simple solution: Challenge mode!

Basically, a Challenge mode world is Identical to an expert world in every way, including enemy variants, boss AI improvements, annoying chilled debuff in cold water, etc., but with one noticeable change:
It's actually difficult.

You see, expert mode can currently be completed by anyone able to obtain a single heart crystal, and build a couple houses. Every boss* can be defeated by standing next to an NPC and being invincible for a few minutes while shooting it. This, needless to say, does not take an expert to do. Thus, I think it is time to make Terraria actually capable of being somewhat challenging.

And so, I believe we need a world difficulty like expert mode, but with the following changes:
  • Every enemy inflicts the "Frantic" debuff for ten seconds if it deals 20 damage or more. This debuff makes you too jittery for the nurse to heal you, as you are shaky on adrenaline.
  • The Moon lord does not finish its attacks when it teleports, It does them immediately again at a slightly faster rate. if it's interrupted again, it retries and speeds up again. this continues until it finishes it attack.
  • The Daedalus Stormbow transforms any ammo used with it into Daedalus arrows, which perform as if you used Wooden Arrows. The arrows keep their damage.
  • Beetle shell has -40% summon damage on it.
There may be other changes that would be appropriate, so use your best judgement.







*Excluding the wall of flesh, but 50 dynamite or a hellwing bow makes short work of it. that's for another thread, though!
 
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To be a mode, this doesn't change very much to Terraria. Expert Mode added a plethora of new items and abilities and difficulties, and standing next to an NPC doesn't make it hard at all, I agree, but why try Expert Mode if you can just not have a challenge?
That is exactly my point. Expert mode is as easy as normal mode, and that's a problem. People like the problem, though, so instead of messing with expert mode, we should have a new one that's actually challenging.
 
Three reasons why it's pointless that immediately sprung to my mind:
- A new game mode existing only because some people just can't help themselves cheesing through the game. Let them, there's no loss for anyone if they do. There's nothing to gain here. Take any other game where you can type in cheat codes, would these games need a special 'no cheat code' mode as well? People can just as well choose not to cheat and if they do, no harm is done.
- In a sandbox game like Terraria people will always find a way to cheese the enemy, no matter how hard devs try to make this impossible. Besides, if they found certain more common used tactics not okay (like using a nurse during boss fights) they'd have disabled them by now. (And then people can start complaining about the nurse, since her usefulness would end there. :naughty:)
- Who decides what is and what isn't a cheap tactic?

When people want to play through the game without cheesing it then they'll play without cheesing it. For the people that use every trick in the book to make every fight a cakewalk, all the power to them and kudos for their creativity. :)
 
Three reasons why it's pointless that immediately sprung to my mind:
- A new game mode existing only because some people just can't help themselves cheesing through the game. Let them, there's no loss for anyone if they do. There's nothing to gain here. Take any other game where you can type in cheat codes, would these games need a special 'no cheat code' mode as well? People can just as well choose not to cheat and if they do, no harm is done.
- In a sandbox game like Terraria people will always find a way to cheese the enemy, no matter how hard devs try to make this impossible. Besides, if they found certain more common used tactics not okay (like using a nurse during boss fights) they'd have disabled them by now. (And then people can start complaining about the nurse, since her usefulness would end there. :naughty:)
- Who decides what is and what isn't a cheap tactic?

When people want to play through the game without cheesing it then they'll play without cheesing it. For the people that use every trick in the book to make every fight a cakewalk, all the power to them and kudos for their creativity. :)
To address your point:
-The thing to be gained here is recognition. There have been three instances of a perfect pac-man game. what if there was a cheat code for having one instantly? All you'd have to do is enter it, and you could be considered one of the best gamers of all time. Why wouldn't you use it? That's not fair to anyone.
-I'm not trying to stop all cheesing, I'm trying to stop the mindless tactics that can be used and reused endlessly and successfully. What if everyone knew about said cheat code? The thing about cheat codes is that they're secret when everyone knows all the cheat codes, and the cheat codes just straight-up make you win, they stop being fun, little easter eggs you can find for a small advantage, and become an 'I win' button that there's no tangible disadvantage to pushing.
-I certainly don't, and if I wanted to get rid of all cheap tactics, That list would be very long. As stated, I want there to be a difference between someone who did something awesome, and someone who stood next to the nurse for 10 minutes while giving the Moon Lord no chance. I'm fine if people come up with creative, interesting ways to avoid a straight-up battle. That's fine. It's just that It's clearly the point of expert mode to be more difficult than normal mode, and since it failed, we need another attempt if that's something we ever want in this game.
 
So you basically want to be acknowledged for doing the impossible, so to speak. To show the world that you finished expert mode the right way, how it was meant to be played (according to your point of view ;) ).

I don't think this is ever possible for any game. Even with steam achievements people can always cheat in games, unlocking achievements without doing the hard work for it. In-game cheats often disable achievements, but it's easy to use third party programs like Cheat Engine to cheat without the game knowing. Or use easy tactics in games that allow it.

I don't really see a problem with it though. Firstly, I don't care about another person's achievements, to put it bluntly. I can't really imagine anyone checking someone's steam profile, seeing an achievement unlocked for something and go: "Gee, I wonder if he/she got that achievement legitimately."

And in the case of Terraria, I'm rather proud of myself getting through expert mode, but I don't need some achievement for it, I have my Moon Lord Loot BagsTM. The knowledge that I did it (with or without cheesing, depending on who's looking at it) is all that matters to me. Isn't that the most important thing of achieving something? Knowing that you did something great, and who cares what other people think about it. :)

That's how I look at it anyway. Opinions will of course differ.
 
So you basically want to be acknowledged for doing the impossible, so to speak. To show the world that you finished expert mode the right way, how it was meant to be played (according to your point of view ;) ).

I don't think this is ever possible for any game. Even with steam achievements people can always cheat in games, unlocking achievements without doing the hard work for it. In-game cheats often disable achievements, but it's easy to use third party programs like Cheat Engine to cheat without the game knowing. Or use easy tactics in games that allow it.

I don't really see a problem with it though. Firstly, I don't care about another person's achievements, to put it bluntly. I can't really imagine anyone checking someone's steam profile, seeing an achievement unlocked for something and go: "Gee, I wonder if he/she got that achievement legitimately."

And in the case of Terraria, I'm rather proud of myself getting through expert mode, but I don't need some achievement for it, I have my Moon Lord Loot BagsTM. The knowledge that I did it (with or without cheesing, depending on who's looking at it) is all that matters to me. Isn't that the most important thing of achieving something? Knowing that you did something great, and who cares what other people think about it. :)

That's how I look at it anyway. Opinions will of course differ.
So you're saying that because it's impossible to stop it completely, we should leave things as they are, where literally anyone can be on your status, or my status, on yrimir's status, just by using the nurse? How can you live with that!?

I guess this is just where our personalities differ, you can stand people pretending they're better than you and I can't :) I guess there's no point in arguing if your argument is opinion-based, so we can both stop now.
 
So you're saying that because it's impossible to stop it completely, we should leave things as they are, where literally anyone can be on your status, or my status, on yrimir's status, just by using the nurse? How can you live with that!?
Yeap, I can perfectly live with that and won't lose a second of sleep over it. Personally I think it's very silly to worry about someone's status regarding video games. Games are for fun, not for showing off how good you are. If people want to show off how good they are, go to Africa, save a Rhino.

I guess this is just where our personalities differ, you can stand people pretending they're better than you and I can't :)
I can stand people pretending they're better than me because I know for a fact that they're not better than me. Everyone has their weak- and strong points, everyone knows absolutely nothing about anything that truely matters, and that makes us all equal. So why care about some random stranger on the internet that unlocked some unimportant achievement. There are more important things to worry about. :)
 

So you're saying that because it's impossible to stop it completely, we should leave things as they are, where literally anyone can be on your status, or my status, on yrimir's status, just by using the nurse? How can you live with that!?
Well, you have to live with that because there are cheaters in exams irl and I'm not getting pissed cause they get a better mark then I do. Got used to it actually. Or like how the rich people usually are the biggest scums of the world, and the poor are usually hard working and :red:s.

Hint hint: Cheaters will fail later, cheesers will get bored after getting their shiny stuff so why bother.

Also, Yri's example wasn't the best. The result isn't important, the process is. I'm sure Yri soloed ML with melee without nurse cheesing. A random kid can't go say "hey, i'm on yri's level because I beat ML expert with melee, with a twist that i used nurse and become invunerable!"
 
A random kid can't go say "hey, i'm on yri's level because I beat ML expert with melee, with a twist that i used nurse and become invunerable!"
That's the problem. They can do exactly that and people will respect him equally. Not many people, but some. Not only that, but no one said he has to tell everyone he cheesed it. He could just not mention whether he did or not and 90% of people would most likely not question it.
 
I would assume this is self-explanatory, but I'll explain it anyway. Basically, people keep getting really fussed up when I make suggestions about removing cheese from expert mode, because they think it will make the game less fun, or remove the player's choice of difficulty. There is a simple solution: Challenge mode!

Basically, a Challenge mode world is Identical to an expert world in every way, including enemy variants, boss AI improvements, annoying chilled debuff in cold water, etc., but with one noticeable change:
It's actually difficult.

You see, expert mode can currently be completed by anyone able to obtain a single heart crystal, and build a couple houses. Every boss* can be defeated by standing next to an NPC and being invincible for a few minutes while shooting it. This, needless to say, does not take an expert to do. Thus, I think it is time to make Terraria actually capable of being somewhat challenging.

And so, I believe we need a world difficulty like expert mode, but with the following changes:
  • Every enemy inflicts the "Frantic" debuff for ten seconds if it deals 20 damage or more. This debuff makes you too jittery for the nurse to heal you, as you are shaky on adrenaline.
  • The Moon lord does not finish its attacks when it teleports, It does them immediately again at a slightly faster rate. if it's interrupted again, it retries and speeds up again. this continues until it finishes it attack.
  • The Daedalus Stormbow transforms any ammo used with it into Daedalus arrows, which perform as if you used Wooden Arrows. The arrows keep their damage.
  • Beetle shell has -40% summon damage on it.
There may be other changes that would be appropriate, so use your best judgement.







*Excluding the wall of flesh, but 50 dynamite or a hellwing bow makes short work of it. that's for another thread, though!
Dude, if you want a challenge, than make it a challenge. Just don't cheese the boss then there. Tough. Also, make it challenging instead of cheering it. To also make a point, that random kid has to PROVE it. Yrmir is simply one of the best Terrains around, who didn't do a full melee playthrough but a hardcore summoner playthrough (note, expert mode was not there during the time) (Note, again, if you want a challenger mode, you have to add more things in it like more loot, nurse only heals 100 health for 10 gold (bc there is people that DONT cheese the bosses with nurse Meathod and frantic could deal INSANE damage, maybe make it where it doesn't allow for the nurse to heal you for 45 seconds or something)
[doublepost=1486420011,1486419671][/doublepost]To be honost, I did a RANGER playthrough on Expert and still can't get past Plantera
(Probaley bc I am too lazy to make a huge arena,lololol)
 
  • The Daedalus Stormbow transforms any ammo used with it into Daedalus arrows, which perform as if you used Wooden Arrows. The arrows keep their damage.
  • Beetle shell has -40% summon damage on it.
While it's nice to see someone complaining about something other than Vampire Knives, I have to wonder why this weapon and armour set was called out specifically. While we are at it, we should probably nerf the Yoyos too, because they're melee damage at range, OP and easy to acquire.

With regards to the Beetle Shell: most summons implement a damage block that prevents other damage from taking effect. (Can't remember the exact word. I think it's piercing damage?) So all the melee boosts in the world won't help if your summon is blocking your damage. If the devs wanted to restrict the number of summons, they wouldn't have allowed a free summon or added the Bewitching Table.

So you're saying that because it's impossible to stop it completely, we should leave things as they are, where literally anyone can be on your status, or my status, on yrimir's status, just by using the nurse? How can you live with that!?
Easily. IT'S A GAME. There is no special reward for how you defeat the bosses (and there shouldn't be a special reward either).
 
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With regards to the Beetle Shell: most summons implement a damage block that prevents other damage from taking effect. (Can't remember the exact word. I think it's piercing damage?) So all the melee boosts in the world won't help if your summon is blocking your damage. If the devs wanted to restrict the number of summons, they wouldn't have allowed a free summon or added the Bewitching Table.
Sorry it took me so long.
The reason for this is that with beetle armor with shell, you can have one or two summoner's accessories on, and function as a super tanky summoner. You can beat the Expert Moon Lord with Beetle armor w/shell and a stardust dragon staff. All you need is a bewitching table and a summonning potion; You don't have to do anything, it will kill it for you pretty quickly. This is what summoners are supposed to be like, plus the actual risk of dying. Why would you ever wear tspooky armor if you can take a minimal hit to effectiveness and a massive boost to survivability by using Beetle. The other solution would be to give summoner's armor double summoning buffs, and halve the damage of all summoning weapons. I figured that since this is the only major area this is an issue, it'd be more simple and elegant to just change the one armor piece.
There is no special reward for how you defeat the bosses (and there shouldn't be a special reward either).
Yes there is. The gravity globe and suspicious looking tentacle. They're not the most practical accessories, the gravity globe is pointless with the UFO/cute fishron and the tentacle is only marginally superior to the wisp in a bottle. Why would the developers put items that are so near-useless they're practically cosmetic as a drop from the hardest boss on the hardest difficulty? I think they're mainly "proof items". They're used to show people, "Yeah. I did this. I'm a somewhat skilled individual." Not, "I stood next to an earlygame NPC for ten minutes and gave her lots of money so I could win." And before you tell me that the developers don't care, look at this line from their recent post:
Expert Mode for those with the skills to take on the ultimate Challenge!
They want expert mode and its rewards to be "for those with the skills". Not 'for those with the nurse'. Not 'for those with the Daedalus Stormbow". I can't imagine they're all oblivious to this practice, but this thread is effectively in case they are, and for anyone else who is.
 
Yes there is. The gravity globe and suspicious looking tentacle. They're not the most practical accessories, the gravity globe is pointless with the UFO/cute fishron and the tentacle is only marginally superior to the wisp in a bottle. Why would the developers put items that are so near-useless they're practically cosmetic as a drop from the hardest boss on the hardest difficulty?
I am not referring to normal/Expert mode, but to the how. There's no difference whether you use a minecart, build an arena, or camp with the Nurse. It doesn't matter what weapon(s) you use. And it shouldn't matter. Everyone should be free to defeat the bosses as they wish.
 
I am not referring to normal/Expert mode, but to the how. There's no difference whether you use a minecart, build an arena, or camp with the Nurse. It doesn't matter what weapon(s) you use. And it shouldn't matter. Everyone should be free to defeat the bosses as they wish.
Well it does matter; some of those methods require skill and some are obviously work-arounds that the developers never intended.

Aha. I can't argue any further as
Everyone should be free to defeat the bosses as they wish.
is an opinion and I can't prove or disprove it.
 
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