PC DST Equipment might need a huge buff...

Leinfors

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I can see why you’d be hesitant to compare it to some of these things, but the issue isn’t simply Molten weapons. Everything seems to suggest that the Pew-Matic is worse than many of its competitors: Demon/Tendon Bows, Boomstick, even Minishark all do substantially better than it (remember that Queen Bee is a terrible boss for Minishark due to her defense spiking, and still got faster times). It simply doesn’t cut it DPS wise. Furthermore, I can see why it shouldn’t be compared to Phoenix Blaster, but Molten Fury is simply more available (comes right after an easier boss boss tiered earlier). Pew-Matic could really just use a good DPS buff, especially considering it doesn’t fare all that well to a couple weapons that come *before* it.

. . . how are you getting that Pew-Matic underperforms Demon Bow/Tendon Bow? Is it an accuracy/range thing? Because no matter how I look at it (with Demon/Tendon Bow using the best possible arrows), they still fall short of Pew-Matic's DPS. They aren't even autofire like Pew-Matic, so they are going to be falling even shorter generally speaking.

Are you including Archery Potions in the considerations here? That's the only thing I can think of which would be leveling the playing field in that regard.
 
. . . how are you getting that Pew-Matic underperforms Demon Bow/Tendon Bow? Is it an accuracy/range thing? Because no matter how I look at it (with Demon/Tendon Bow using the best possible arrows), they still fall short of Pew-Matic's DPS. They aren't even autofire like Pew-Matic, so they are going to be falling even shorter generally speaking.

Are you including Archery Potions in the considerations here? That's the only thing I can think of which would be leveling the playing field in that regard.
I was judging based off Mathbrush’s Queen Bee tests earlier in this thread. I’d ask them for specifics on what they used, though I’d say that archery potions *should* be accounted for, considering they’re fairly cheap and should be a go to any time a bow is used in a bossfight.

Edit: What is the chance for any individual projectile to be fired by Pew-Matic? I assumed any individual object had an equal chance, and Tendon Bow with Hellfire and Archery Potions still seemed to slightly beat Pew-Matic with Tungsten Bullets in DPS. Tendon Bow also has the range advantage and seems less impacted by enemy defense overall, and is more versatile what with having ammo choice, but to be fair, does lack autofire. It’s also worth pointing out that Tendon Bow comes much earlier, being readily available upon defeat of just the Eye of Cthulhu.
 
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Flubman

Terrarian
In between bug reporting/fixing, I'm starting to get together a list of candidate changes for a later hotfix (I think we are hotfixing today, but it won't have very many balance changes, I'd rather do them mostly in a batch). I'll probably share what I'm thinking here later today or perhaps tomorrow for some extra thoughts. Note, also, that if the balance changes aren't out by Wednesday, it is unlikely we will see anything until NEXT Monday at the minimum due to Thanksgiving weekend.



Good thinking, but we made it so statue critters couldn't be caught back in (I believe it was) 1.3.1.

I've been mulling over the Pylon/Jungle Town concern though. It's a good point. Sauteed Frog Legs were added and balanced before we had the Pylon systems implemented. I'll have to discuss with the rest of the team.

The question is, if we make such a change, what would be ideal for the final two recipes? Sauteed = Tier 1 10 minutes? Where does that leave Froggle? Nerfing it all the way to Tier 1 would be such a huge change . . . so I'd say it should end up somewhere in Tier 2. If we were to make such a change, what would you guys expect to see from Froggle?
I think you have the right idea. Ideally, I think Sauteed should give you Tier 1 and that Froggle should give you Tier 1 but for longer, but I would accept Sauteed being Tier 1 and Froggle being Tier 2 (possibly with a shorter duration than it currently has).

Also, do you still plan on buffing the Pew-matic Horn? I'm not trying to be condescending here, but I have a friend who has a master's in mathematics. If you doubt your calculations, maybe he could mull them over.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Eye of Cthulhu killtimes
Despite being significantly earlier, this boss helps to find out DPS in the 1st phase, and now user-friendly the weapon is against fast, charging boss in the 2nd.
Master Mode.
Necro Armor, 3 accessories were reforged to Warding, 3 to Menacing
— Fledgling Wings
– Terraspark Boots
– Sharktooth Necklace
– Shield of Cthulhu
– Worm Scarf
– Band of Regeneration

+ All buff potions avaliable
Eye of Cthulhu (Necro Armor)
Hellwing Bow, Jester, Archery 22 sec
Molten Fury, Jester, Archery 23 sec
Boomstick, Meteor Shot 29 sec
Minishark, Meteor Shot 33 sec
Musket, Meteor Shot 45 sec
Tendon Bow, Jester, Archery 46 sec
Pew-Matic Horn 46 sec
Demon Bow, Jester, Archery 48 sec
Platinum Bow, Jester, Archery 51 sec

Edit: Pew-Matic horn's results vary. The worst result is 49 seconds, the best is 34.
 
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Leinfors

Quality Assurance
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Re-Logic
Also, do you still plan on buffing the Pew-matic Horn? I'm not trying to be condescending here, but I have a friend who has a master's in mathematics. If you doubt your calculations, maybe he could mull them over.

I think I've said rather repeatedly (and more than any other item) that Pew-Matic is most in line for buffs.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I think I've said rather repeatedly (and more than any other item) that Pew-Matic is most in line for buffs.
Yeah, I figured. I was just making sure. Sorry if I annoyed you.

Anyways, what do you think of my offer to get my math friend to look over your calculations? I doubt you'll take it (I figure you're not authorized to show them), but it could be helpful.
 

Mille Marteaux

Empress of Light
The question is, if we make such a change, what would be ideal for the final two recipes? Sauteed = Tier 1 10 minutes? Where does that leave Froggle? Nerfing it all the way to Tier 1 would be such a huge change . . . so I'd say it should end up somewhere in Tier 2. If we were to make such a change, what would you guys expect to see from Froggle?
It'd be easier if this game had some kind of wheat-like resource so I could say "just add bread to the recipe." Then you'd have to spend extra time harvesting for the bread and do more than just walk around your town. We have Hay, but, yeah. It should have something else in the recipe though just to justify the next tier up...

Perhaps a higher amount of frogs required for both it and the Sauteed dish would be worth looking into as well? The difference between Cooked Fish and Seafood Dinner is item quantity and item rarity, after all.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I had a thought. What if your luck affected what items the Pew-matic Horn fires?

Although, this idea is probably too ambitious, so I understand if it just won't happen.
 

Leinfors

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I had a thought. What if your luck affected what items the Pew-matic Horn fires?

Although, this idea is probably too ambitious, so I understand if it just won't happen.

On the whole, luck's impact on game mechanics is generally so slight that it would not appreciably impact performance to a degree that would make or break it being a good item or not. It would be a bunch of coding for a few % points of +/- power.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
On the whole, luck's impact on game mechanics is generally so slight that it would not appreciably impact performance to a degree that would make or break it being a good item or not. It would be a bunch of coding for a few % points of +/- power.
Yeah, I figured it would be too ambitious.
 

CrabBar

Official Terrarian
Good thinking, but we made it so statue critters couldn't be caught back in (I believe it was) 1.3.1.

I've been mulling over the Pylon/Jungle Town concern though. It's a good point. Sauteed Frog Legs were added and balanced before we had the Pylon systems implemented. I'll have to discuss with the rest of the team.

The question is, if we make such a change, what would be ideal for the final two recipes? Sauteed = Tier 1 10 minutes? Where does that leave Froggle? Nerfing it all the way to Tier 1 would be such a huge change . . . so I'd say it should end up somewhere in Tier 2. If we were to make such a change, what would you guys expect to see from Froggle?
Considering that most if not all food recipes that are "critter on a Cooking Pot" are 10 minutes tier 1 buff, it'd absolutely be fitting for Sauteed. It could be a bit higher because encountering and staying near Jungle is not as simple as Surface/Snow, but is ultimately counteracted by 1) Frogs being more plentiful thanks to increased spawnrates, and 2) having other idle drops like Grubbies, Sluggies, Buggies, that also can create a food item (Grub Soup, that grants t2 buff) or used for fishing to get Cooked Fish/Seafood. In fact, these could be used as an argument to decrease duration further, but ultimately it's best at 10 minutes as of right now, being unified with the rest of simple critter food.

As for Froggle, things get complicated indeed... A simple increase in Frogs number may be fine, but the amount of frogs you may obtain from the Jungle Pylon point is absolutely swole. On a decently flat surface, with 3 npcs nearby, you can catch on average 14 frogs per minute (~12 at day, 17 at night). As such, higher cost in the same material might not solve it being a clearly superior version.

I had been looking at the recipe from DST:

Capture.PNG

Most of the materials in Terraria that could be fitting (Mushrooms, Wood, Hay, fruit items from trees, herbs, Pumpkin, etc.) are either too plentiful or completely overtake the Frog-themed dish style due to rarity.
As of current, I can only propose one variant that I find any decent:
Frogs, Jungle Spore(s), Hay (optional)
That way, aside from simple Frog collection, you have to be visiting Underground Jungle, too. More dynamics in crafting recipe as well, and the recipe is conveniently separated from sauteed's basic form.
However, since I do not know how much more complicated a visit to Underground Jungle is considered (especially since I do recognize my own playstyle looting the biome rather early compared to average player), I would refrain from saying the exact stats for the Froggle, only stating that it likely could be considered t2 high duration/t3 average duration that way.

. . . how are you getting that Pew-Matic underperforms Demon Bow/Tendon Bow? Is it an accuracy/range thing? Because no matter how I look at it (with Demon/Tendon Bow using the best possible arrows), they still fall short of Pew-Matic's DPS. They aren't even autofire like Pew-Matic, so they are going to be falling even shorter generally speaking.

Are you including Archery Potions in the considerations here? That's the only thing I can think of which would be leveling the playing field in that regard.
Gonna write down a simplified math and see how it goes:
Pew-matic Horn: 19 Damage, 24 Use Time, 4% Crit Chance
Silver/Tungsten Bullets add 9 damage to that
The item damage pool chances are unknown to me at the moment, but assuming every single one has an equal chance to appear, you deal 25x damage with 24 projectiles, thus 25/24x multiplier
((19+9)*60/24)*1.04 = 72.8
Applying the aforementioned multiplier: 72.8*25/24 = 75.8
Demon Bow
: 14 Damage, 25 Use Time, 4% Crit Chance
Arrows are a tough call, mostly because of availability issues (something like Unholy Arrows is strong, but may not be as common of a pick as one might thing).
For the comparison's sake, I'd stick with 10 damage (a rough average between Frostburn, Jester, and Unholy). Frostburn may lead to up to 8 DPS extra, but it is hard to keep 100% uptime and it isn't scaled with general damage increases so I intentionally avoid it for now.
((14+10)*60/25)*1.04 = 59.9
With Archery Potion, the base damage of Demon Bow is increased to 17. Arrows are unchanged. Extra calculation:
((17+10)*60/25)*1.04 = 67.4
Tendon Bow: 19 Damage, 30 Use Time, 4% Crit Chance
Without Archery Potion and with 10 dmg arrow:
((19+10)*60/30)*1.04 = 60.3
With Archery Potion the bow damage is increased to 23:
((23+10)*60/30)*1.04 = 68.6

So, yeah no, strictly speaking, bows are ever so slightly below Pew-matic Horn's DPS on a single target.
There are a few side factors that makes bows more favorable in real play compared to Pew-matic: better arc on a projectile and being able to pick arrow's effect as opposed to plain attack. But in direct comparison Horn would win.

That said, what tier weapons Horn should be compared to? When advertised as a "late preHM boss", which implies at very least post-EoW, it directly loses to the likes of Boomstick (120.8 DPS, assuming 3.5 bullets), Minishark (105 DPS), Sand Gun (108.8 DPS, regular sand), admittedly also being less versatile than either for same reasons (no ammo types, arc).

I could also bring other classes on the table, but with current situation of Ranger weapons being generally overtuned it's unlikely to be any fruitful with balancing restrictions imposed.
So, if we were to balance only the Horn like that, it'd be underwhelming compared to the rest of Ranger. :confused:
 

Leinfors

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That said, what tier weapons Horn should be compared to? When advertised as a "late preHM boss", which implies at very least post-EoW, it directly loses to the likes of Boomstick (120.8 DPS, assuming 3.5 bullets), Minishark (105 DPS), Sand Gun (108.8 DPS, regular sand), admittedly also being less versatile than either for same reasons (no ammo types, arc).

I could also bring other classes on the table, but with current situation of Ranger weapons being generally overtuned it's unlikely to be any fruitful with balancing restrictions imposed.
So, if we were to balance only the Horn like that, it'd be underwhelming compared to the rest of Ranger. :confused:

Jungle, Bee, and Dungeon drops are it's intended peers.

I was just really curious where those bow figures came from (and it sounds like it was Archery Potion).
 

Flubman

Terrarian
Jungle, Bee, and Dungeon drops are it's intended peers.

I was just really curious where those bow figures came from (and it sounds like it was Archery Potion).
I think accounting for Archery Potion is fair because practically any bow-user will use one during a boss fight.

Edit: As pointed out earlier, bows have a longer range and a more-intuitive flight path, so I think making the Pew-matic Horn have somewhat higher DPS than its bow peers would be rewarding for a player who's willing to master an unconventional and harder-to-use weapon.
 
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Leinfors

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Weak consolation (especially since it's my job to confirm this sort of thing is correct, so I have absolutely no excuse), but I'm looking at my data and for whatever reason, Pew-Matic Horn does NOT match my listed initial proposed stats . . . I'm not quite sure what happened here, but the numbers were changed between my balance notes and the code. It may have been confusion while translating the numbers from one to the other.

For what it's worth, my initial values were 25 Damage and 20 UT, versus the current 19 Damage and 24 UT, a roughly 40% DPS increase over the current stats.

We're looking into plausibility of Life Drain + stat bonuses on Ham Bat, and considering adding a weak but maybe interesting mechanic on Tentacle Spike (will share more tomorrow).

I'm still sticking with my plans for a slower Bat Bat that hits harder and has a more simplified health stealing system, though I haven't nailed down the stats yet. When I have (tomorrow???), I'm planning to post what I'm thinking about here to see if there is any immediate feedback on it.

The Abigail hit-cap mechanics were one of the only real weapon changes added in today's hotfix, because they required Yorai to do some substantial reworks and he wanted it out of the way sooner rather than later. I didn't think Abigail having no maximum target cap was ideal. You check out the changelog, you can see how the logistics work. I'm open to feedback on minor adjustments to the precise numbers and scaling, but I don't anticipate her returning to 10-or-more enemies level of AoE. She's a pretty early game minion, even if a potentially powerful one. In addition to the boosted spawn rate, I also have some minor buffs coming her way which should hopefully counterbalance this loss of heavy group DPS.
 

Shyguymask

Terrarian
I think limiting Abigail to hitting only four Creepers at a time is an unnecessarily severe nerf, especially since the BoC video I posted early in the thread is illegitimate as it was recorded in a Hardmode world and I had no idea she was buffed in Hardmode at the time. Hopefully said minor buffs will make up for it.
 

Leinfors

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I think limiting Abigail to hitting only four Creepers at a time is an unnecessarily severe nerf, especially since the BoC video I posted early in the thread is illegitimate as it was recorded in a Hardmode world and I had no idea she was buffed in Hardmode at the time. Hopefully said minor buffs will make up for it.

Keep in mind that it is just an initial number, and since I have a little extra time on this change, I can take feedback into consideration. I can increase the base value (the base value is 3, not 4) and a 5-count Abigail would have a cap of 5.

I can increase both the base value, and I CAN increase the scaling per minion count, but if I do it by 1 per minion count, I'd probably be inclined to keep the minimum at 3 (so a 3-minion Abigail would hit 5, for instance). Trying to do it by decimal amounts (0.75 cap per minion) will probably just be extra confusing, so every 1 or every 2 are probably the only real options.
 

Hyperkatmanders

Official Terrarian
We're looking into plausibility of Life Drain + stat bonuses on Ham Bat, and considering adding a weak but maybe interesting mechanic on Tentacle Spike (will share more tomorrow).

I'm still sticking with my plans for a slower Bat Bat that hits harder and has a more simplified health stealing system, though I haven't nailed down the stats yet. When I have (tomorrow???), I'm planning to post what I'm thinking about here to see if there is any immediate feedback on it.
I’m interested to see what the mechanic on Tentacle Spike is and also the idea for Bat Bat, and I’m exited for the change to Ham Bat if it goes through, now as for Lucy, are there any changes planned for her? She has identical stats to Bee Keeper(which also spawns bees), and ever so slightly worse stats than Muramasa(26 damage 18 use time vs 26 damage 20 use time), but has lower range than both), if she’s in the area of Skeletron/Queen Bee I’d say making her have less range than both Bee Keeper and Muramasa but giving her exceptional dps for her stage(30+ damage 18 use time possibly?) would bring up her risk reward greatly? (Also her Tool Speed should be lower from 20 to 12 to make her a better axe because that’s why she’s not a good axe, her tool speed is simply too high)

Edit: I changed the tool speed from 15 to 12, she’s an axe that’s pretty difficult to obtain so even though it’s more speed than Molten, it makes sense, and balancing an axe doesn’t REALLY matter, but her having “longevity” for an axe would be cool because she talks
 
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Lucy should probably be added to the list of weapons deserving of buffs and changes, even if we discredit her versus Feiry Greatsword. Understanding that she’s meant to be compared to Muramasa and Bee Keeper, this is what I have.

The issue with Lucy is that, accounting for her 14% crit, her DPS is still lower than Muramasa at around half the range. The only advantage Lucy has is knockback. Also, Muramasa is already not exactly considered the best of weapons.

Bee Keeper is confusing to calculate DPS for because of global immunity innate to swords, but if we judge by the behavior we usually see with swords and overlapping hitboxes (ex. Blade Staff getting hits in between Fetid Baghnakh swings in a facetank build), it’s safe to assume that there’s one bee sting between Bee Keeper swings, which already puts Bee Keeper on a *single target* at the same DPS as Lucy the Axe.

Bee Keeper ends up with an *advantage* in single-target DPS with Hive Pack. It also has:
-significantly more size than Lucy
-more KB with the same use time, plus Confusion to keep enemies off of you
-the ability to disrupt, and chip, many enemies at once using the bees
-the ability to “moonwalk” with it (no useturn), meaning it can be used while backing away from threats

If Lucy is meant to be a cousin to both of these weapons, it becomes much more apparent that she needs somewhat of a combat buff.

As for Lucy being a “bad axe”, well, it’s a bit confusing. The problem is that Meteor Hamaxe outclasses her with more power and about 33% faster tool speed, but if we’re still discrediting molten weapons (I still don’t agree with this, hellstone is effectively post worm), then yeah I guess she *is* better than meteor hamaxe. Barely. Probably not by enough to be worth going for specifically as an axe, but whatever. The other issue is that Molten Hamaxe is completely overtuned, being one of the fastest axes at cutting trees in the game (0.8 seconds per tree). Overall, though, balance as an axe is definitely less important than her balance as a weapon.
 
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Leinfors

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I’m interested to see what the mechanic on Tentacle Spike is and also the idea for Bat Bat, and I’m exited for the change to Ham Bat if it goes through, now as for Lucy, are there any changes planned for her? She has identical stats to Bee Keeper(which also spawns bees), and ever so slightly worse stats than Muramasa(26 damage 18 use time vs 26 damage 20 use time), but has lower range than both), if she’s in the area of Skeletron/Queen Bee I’d say making her have less range than both Bee Keeper and Muramasa but giving her exceptional dps for her stage(30+ damage 18 use time possibly?) would bring up her risk reward greatly? (Also her Tool Speed should be lower from 20 to 12 to make her a better axe because that’s why she’s not a good axe, her tool speed is simply too high)

Edit: I changed the tool speed from 15 to 12, she’s an axe that’s pretty difficult to obtain so even though it’s more speed than Molten, it makes sense, and balancing an axe doesn’t REALLY matter, but her having “longevity” for an axe would be cool because she talks

I'll mention (because it doesn't seem to be noticed often) but Lucy has a +10% critical chance which was PART of why I left her as she was; her DPS is a bit higher with that crit rate taken into consideration, but I'll admit I wanted very hard NOT to step on the toes of Muramasa (How you doing Muramasa, anyone?). But I think her range warrants a further increase.

I want to avoid making her into a Falcon Blade 2.0 (it has a 120 DPS "offset" by short range, but was easily Day 1 available and had identical DPS to what Night's Edge has NOW)

Improving her Axe-ing speed is a secondary concern but one I still want to address, so I'm certain there will at least be a buff there. Worst case scenario, she's a really good axe and . . . no real harm is done.

On the whole though, I don't see Lucy's changes being particularly dramatic, just enough Damage/Speed to make her range worthwhile. Also I'm experimenting with increasing her size just a little (but I have a hard limit on this before scale starts to look ugly, and I can't get her resprited again right now).


Unrelated:
Do you guys think Pew-Matic would be more fun if it were faster or stronger? There's a range of viability that can be done either way, and I'm curious what other's opinions are. I tried out a "faster but not stronger" Pew-Matic and it's pretty fun, but people might like a slow bruiser better (the current speed, just hitting harder).











(I'm procrastinating having to look at the Raven piercing problem, save me)
 
Do you guys think Pew-Matic would be more fun if it were faster or stronger? There's a range of viability that can be done either way, and I'm curious what other's opinions are. I tried out a "faster but not stronger" Pew-Matic and it's pretty fun, but people might like a slow bruiser better (the current speed, just hitting harder).
Pew-Matic would definitely be fun if it were faster, in my opinion. What with all its damage variance and chaotic difference in projectiles, it definitely feels like the kind of weapon that should feel spammy. Boomstick kind of already feels like the “slow, hard hitter” of this tier anyway.
 
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