Expand Your Terraria Empire - Pylons, Town Building, and NPC Happiness

Enix said:
If it's that simple then why are you upset
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your point. Consider an analogy.

Let's say that one day, someone installs a device on your front door that slaps you in the face every time you enter your house. Now, it doesn't slap you hard; it's not breaking bones, teeth, or skin. And you can stop it easily enough by just raising your hand to block the slap, since it's easy enough to anticipate it; it only happens when you open the door. You can get used to it, and you can make it not hurt.

I hope we can all agree that this doesn't make the face slapping device OK. The fact that a problem can be mitigated relatively easily does not mean there isn't a problem.

It doesn't matter if it requires 5 minutes or "300000 hours"; I'm arguing that I shouldn't have to mitigate it at all.

ReiPepper said:
While I think his "pushing an agenda" part is a bit disingenuous, I'd have to agree that there's clearly two sides of this coin here and it's to a point where debating is pointless as the people who have their current opinions aren't going to change them. I'm glad to at least have gotten out my concerns.
Click to expand...

My response wasn't really about whether the debate is pointless or not; it's more about the characterization of how people are debating. Namely, the "both sides are arguing badly" bit.

I for one have never misrepresented the opposing position in a way like this: "oh no i have to stop cramming my npcs in tight rooms compact together in one biome in a bad arrangement in order to receive normal prices over slightly increased prices, how ever shall i cope with this without spending 300000 hours on building beautiful houses across the world"

At all times, I have tried to be respectful of the opinions of others while clearly differing with them. I have tried to answer the criticisms of my arguments when they are made.

So I feel it is very unfair to lump my arguments in with people who just flat-out ignore, or worse misrepresent, what is being said on the other side.
 
"From my point of view, this change is a good/bad one!"

In seriousness though, I'm personally glad to see this change. Won't stop me from making minimal housing, but it'll just be spread a bit more. The most important/useful NPC's stay at spawn base.

Just try to remember that what we don't know, we shouldn't assume. Who knows what the change in prices will be? Or what it takes to make an NPC happy enough for +0% prices / pylons? We have to wait and see, first. Nothing wrong with theorizing, though
 
True Excalibur said:
This is amazing! I have always loved the NPCs and I am so glad they get even more personality!

And did anybody else notice those cool new life and mana bars???

Also I see crystal trees and some sort of crystal bunny.
Click to expand...
Nicely spotted! Looks like it matches the map border (which we know we're getting several of), meaning we might be looking at several additional life/mana borders! I'm probably gonna go with the leafy one.
 
Nicol Bolas said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. Consider an analogy.

Let's say that one day, someone installs a device on your front door that slaps you in the face every time you enter your house. Now, it doesn't slap you hard; it's not breaking bones, teeth, or skin. And you can stop it easily enough by just raising your hand to block the slap, since it's easy enough to anticipate it; it only happens when you open the door. You can get used to it, and you can make it not hurt.

I hope we can all agree that this doesn't make the face slapping device OK. The fact that a problem can be mitigated relatively easily does not mean there isn't a problem.

It doesn't matter if it requires 5 minutes or "300000 hours"; I'm arguing that I shouldn't have to mitigate it at all.



My response wasn't really about whether the debate is pointless or not; it's more about the characterization of how people are debating. Namely, the "both sides are arguing badly" bit.

I for one have never misrepresented the opposing position in a way like this: "oh no i have to stop cramming my npcs in tight rooms compact together in one biome in a bad arrangement in order to receive normal prices over slightly increased prices, how ever shall i cope with this without spending 300000 hours on building beautiful houses across the world"

At all times, I have tried to be respectful of the opinions of others while clearly differing with them. I have tried to answer the criticisms of my arguments when they are made.

So I feel it is very unfair to lump my arguments in with people who just flat-out ignore, or worse misrepresent, what is being said on the other side.
Click to expand...
normally i'd argue my point yet again, but as previously pointed out, it's a bit pointless.
 
Nicol Bolas said:
... yes. If getting a Pylon is so trivial, then getting them is just added tedium. And tedium makes the game worse. This is on top of the irritation of potentially redesigning your base layout.
Click to expand...
You. Don't. Need. To. Do. It.

You know what? Not really my problem. If you want to be irritated about something, who am I to take it from you.
 
Nicol Bolas said:
Let's say that one day, someone installs a device on your front door that slaps you in the face every time you enter your house. Now, it doesn't slap you hard; it's not breaking bones, teeth, or skin. And you can stop it easily enough by just raising your hand to block the slap, since it's easy enough to anticipate it; it only happens when you open the door. You can get used to it, and you can make it not hurt.

I hope we can all agree that this doesn't make the face slapping device OK. The fact that a problem can be mitigated relatively easily does not mean there isn't a problem.

It doesn't matter if it requires 5 minutes or "300000 hours"; I'm arguing that I shouldn't have to mitigate it at all.
Click to expand...

The "mitigation" is permanent per-world (assuming you don't make housing worse for NPC's), so in your analogy, instead of saying "You can stop it easily enough by just raising your hand to block the slap...", you should say "You can stop it easily by destroying it...".
 
Wintar said:
Just try to remember that what we don't know, we shouldn't assume. Who knows what the change in prices will be? Or what it takes to make an NPC happy enough for +0% prices / pylons?
Click to expand...

Here's the thing, though; we do know some of that. The means to get a Pylon are clearly stated:

"Well, if you have enough happy NPCs in a given biome, you will unlock the use of a Pylon for that biome."

So you will need to have 1 or more NPCs in a biome, and they have to be sufficiently happy. And we've also been told what increases happiness: neighbors, lack of "crowding", and location. Since they already have to be in that biome, their biome preferences almost certainly have to match, so that one's taken care of. And since you're building this base to get a Pylon, "crowding" isn't an issue once you know how "crowding" works.

So to get a Pylon, it's just a matter of sticking the right NPCs in the right location with sufficient space to satisfy the "crowding" requirement. It ain't exactly rocket science.

As for the price issue, the goal of the feature is stated as follows:

"we conducted a focus group with all of the Terraria NPCs. Outside of some very strange requests (no, Guide, we cannot 'remove all doors at night'), their feedback was very clear: they are tired of being shoved into tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes and they want you to know this!"

The Pylon mechanic won't actually affect this, because there's a distinction between getting a Pylon and keeping it active. Getting a Pylon requires happiness; keeping it active does not: "Pylons must also have two nearby (and living) NPCs in order to function". So you could make "tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes" at the destination Pylons just fine.

So if the developers want to discourage "tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes", the only tool they have at their disposal is the price penalty/bonus. So it can't be insignificant, or else there will be no incentive to change.

So we do know some things.
 
Nicol Bolas said:
Here's the thing, though; we do know some of that. The means to get a Pylon are clearly stated:

"Well, if you have enough happy NPCs in a given biome, you will unlock the use of a Pylon for that biome."

So you will need to have 1 or more NPCs in a biome, and they have to be sufficiently happy. And we've also been told what increases happiness: neighbors, lack of "crowding", and location. Since they already have to be in that biome, their biome preferences almost certainly have to match, so that one's taken care of. And since you're building this base to get a Pylon, "crowding" isn't an issue once you know how "crowding" works.

So to get a Pylon, it's just a matter of sticking the right NPCs in the right location with sufficient space to satisfy the "crowding" requirement. It ain't exactly rocket science.

As for the price issue, the goal of the feature is stated as follows:

"we conducted a focus group with all of the Terraria NPCs. Outside of some very strange requests (no, Guide, we cannot 'remove all doors at night'), their feedback was very clear: they are tired of being shoved into tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes and they want you to know this!"

The Pylon mechanic won't actually affect this, because there's a distinction between getting a Pylon and keeping it active. Getting a Pylon requires happiness; keeping it active does not: "Pylons must also have two nearby (and living) NPCs in order to function". So you could make "tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes" at the destination Pylons just fine.

So if the developers want to discourage "tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes", the only tool they have at their disposal is the price penalty/bonus. So it can't be insignificant, or else there will be no incentive to change.

So we do know some things.
Click to expand...
ok so would you rather them make it so that pylons require sufficiently happy NPCs at all times to be usable? cause if not then I don't see why you're complaining
 
SagetheWise said:
I'm sure a mod that does just this will be introduced shortly after 1.4 is released.
Click to expand...

Mods should not be an excuse to justify poor gameplay. I can understand the various positive positions with regard to this feature: you don't mind it, or that you actively like it, or that you think that people who build "cubicles" for their NPCs deserve to have a price penalty or many arguments of that sort. I don't agree with such positions, but I can at least in the abstract understand them.

But poor gameplay decisions shouldn't be accepted just because a modding community exists for the game.

I'm sure there are mods that make the Goblin Tinkerer's RNG go away. I'm sure there are mods that fix all kinds of annoyances in the game. But that doesn't stop them from being annoying.

And from a personal perspective, I don't resort to mods to "fix" a game. If a game is that broken that I would need to download some user-created content to make it work adequately, I just don't play it. I've got other things I could be doing.

This change isn't a deal-breaker; it's just one more irritant to throw on the pile. But that doesn't make it any less irritating.
 
Nicol Bolas said:
Mods should not be an excuse to justify poor gameplay. I can understand the various positive positions with regard to this feature: you don't mind it, or that you actively like it, or that you think that people who build "cubicles" for their NPCs deserve to have a price penalty or many arguments of that sort. I don't agree with such positions, but I can at least in the abstract understand them.

But poor gameplay decisions shouldn't be accepted just because a modding community exists for the game.

I'm sure there are mods that make the Goblin Tinkerer's RNG go away. I'm sure there are mods that fix all kinds of annoyances in the game. But that doesn't stop them from being annoying.

And from a personal perspective, I don't resort to mods to "fix" a game. If a game is that broken that I would need to download some user-created content to make it work adequately, I just don't play it. I've got other things I could be doing.

This change isn't a deal-breaker; it's just one more irritant to throw on the pile. But that doesn't make it any less irritating.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it poor gameplay. The mechanic literally hasn't even been revealed on a functional level yet and suddenly you think you know every single little detail about it. Just wait for it to come out. If you're still adamantly against it, then you can use a mod to change the game to your preferences.

I personally play with the Magic Storage Mod because I find the usage of chests incredibly hard to organize, but I don't think that chests should be removed from the game entirely. I just use a mod to fix an aspect of the game that I personally do not find enjoyment in. That's why those types of mods exist.

Also, if you seriously legitimately believe that this tiny increase in price that is incredibly simple to fix literally ruins the entirety of Terraria as a whole, then maybe you should find a new game to play. Either that or just get a mod to disable it.
 
Enix said:
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it poor gameplay. The mechanic literally hasn't even been revealed on a functional level yet and suddenly you think you know every single little detail about it. Just wait for it to come out. If you're still adamantly against it, then you can use a mod to change the game to your preferences.

I personally play with the Magic Storage Mod because I find the usage of chests incredibly hard to organize, but I don't think that chests should be removed from the game entirely. I just use a mod to fix an aspect of the game that I personally do not find enjoyment in. That's why those types of mods exist.

Also, if you seriously legitimately believe that this tiny increase in price that is incredibly simple to fix literally ruins the entirety of Terraria as a whole, then maybe you should find a new game to play. Either that or just get a mod to disable it.
Click to expand...
Indeed, it’s so incredibly easy to fix the devs could do it with no extra dev time- hence why people are expressing concern over it. You also do not know it’s tiny. You also act like you know everything about it.
 
Lucasness said:
Indeed, it’s so incredibly easy to fix the devs could do it with no extra dev time- hence why people are expressing concern over it. You also do not know it’s tiny. You also act like you know everything about it.
Click to expand...
But you don't know that it even needs fixing. That's my exact point. I do not act like I know everything about it, and quite frankly I do not see how you came to this conclusion. I am just using the information given in the initial post. You can have fun assuming the absolute worst of any given news from ReLogic, but all of us actual fans of the game are gonna be busy enjoying this wonderful news.
 
Enix said:
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it poor gameplay. The mechanic literally hasn't even been revealed on a functional level yet and suddenly you think you know every single little detail about it. Just wait for it to come out. If you're still adamantly against it, then you can use a mod to change the game to your preferences.

I personally play with the Magic Storage Mod because I find the usage of chests incredibly hard to organize, but I don't think that chests should be removed from the game entirely. I just use a mod to fix an aspect of the game that I personally do not find enjoyment in. That's why those types of mods exist.

Also, if you seriously legitimately believe that this tiny increase in price that is incredibly simple to fix literally ruins the entirety of Terraria as a whole, then maybe you should find a new game to play. Either that or just get a mod to disable it.
Click to expand...

if i know the devs from past update experience, this "tiny price increase" may actually be anywhere from +50% prices to +400% prices

and i agree with Nicol Bolas, you shouldn't need to use a mod to fix a irritating part of a game, especially if they are absurd irritations, I.E: the fishing quest loot system, abyssal drop rates from enemies, non-stop blood moons, etc

mods should be used to add so much more to a game than just to fix a petty buy or annoyance, for instance Frackin Universe for Starbound is amazing, thats how modding should be, but for instance the skyrim unofficial patch is something that is filled with stuff that Bethesda should have implemented in the first place, people worship Bethesda games despite the fact they objective have the absolute worst bugs imaginable (cant enter the grey beards temple anymore without either the patch or cheesing your way in, oblivion also has the same issues)

now im not saying that this horrible system, but it is something they should have consulted with the community with, this has the potential to make or break players associations with the NPCs
 
VoltrenXytech said:
if i know the devs from past update experience, this "tiny price increase" may actually be anywhere from +50% prices to +400% prices

and i agree with Nicol Bolas, you shouldn't need to use a mod to fix a irritating part of a game, especially if they are absurd irritations, I.E: the fishing quest loot system, abyssal drop rates from enemies, non-stop blood moons, etc

mods should be used to add so much more to a game than just to fix a petty buy or annoyance, for instance Frackin Universe for Starbound is amazing, thats how modding should be, but for instance the skyrim unofficial patch is something that is filled with stuff that Bethesda should have implemented in the first place, people worship Bethesda games despite the fact they objective have the absolute worst bugs imaginable (cant enter the grey beards temple anymore without either the patch or cheesing your way in, oblivion also has the same issues)

now im not saying that this horrible system, but it is something they should have consulted with the community with, this has the potential to make or break players associations with the NPCs
Click to expand...
You make a good point mate. I say we at least wait until the update actually comes out and see what the prices are. I don't think the devs want to spoil it.
 
Enix said:
But you don't know that it even needs fixing. That's my exact point. I do not act like I know everything about it, and quite frankly I do not see how you came to this conclusion. I am just using the information given in the initial post. You can have fun assuming the absolute worst of any given news from ReLogic, but all of us actual fans of the game are gonna be busy enjoying this wonderful news.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that if we don't like a single feature, we're not "actual fans" of the game?
 
VoltrenXytech said:
if i know the devs from past update experience, this "tiny price increase" may actually be anywhere from +50% prices to +400% prices

and i agree with Nicol Bolas, you shouldn't need to use a mod to fix a irritating part of a game, especially if they are absurd irritations, I.E: the fishing quest loot system, abyssal drop rates from enemies, non-stop blood moons, etc

mods should be used to add so much more to a game than just to fix a petty buy or annoyance, for instance Frackin Universe for Starbound is amazing, thats how modding should be, but for instance the skyrim unofficial patch is something that is filled with stuff that Bethesda should have implemented in the first place, people worship Bethesda games despite the fact they objective have the absolute worst bugs imaginable (cant enter the grey beards temple anymore without either the patch or cheesing your way in, oblivion also has the same issues)

now im not saying that this horrible system, but it is something they should have consulted with the community with, this has the potential to make or break players associations with the NPCs
Click to expand...
You must not know the devs if you expect them to make a Minishark cost 2 platinum.

Also, mods exist for two reasons.
1. To change base aspects of the game to the player's preference (Such as with Magic Storage, Boss Health Bar, Reduced Grinding, etc.)
2. To add new content to the game to enhance the player's experience (Such as with Calamity, Thorium, and Fargos)

Removing the new NPC system would fit under the first category. If you really end up not liking the feature on release (since again, you guys don't know how the actual mechanics work at all beyond a conceptual level), then you can get a mod to change the game to your liking.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom