Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[r543]

You know, it's interesting how clever a lot of suggestions seem until you realize that... doing too much could be disastrous to game-play.
The Encumbering Stone caused a TON of early-game issues for new/ veteran players, complaining about not being able to pick up items.
You should've seen the Bugs/ Glitches section, it was hilarious, in a not-so-funny kinda way too.

Thing is, when you change one aspect of the game, even if it seems to be a no-brainer, it can effect 10 other things you didn't consider.
That's why it's important to consult other, equally intelligent people, before doing even the most minor of adjustments.
I can tell you right now, even with everything else you suggested, that placing the Encumbering Stone in crates is a bad idea...

So adding a chest item to it's chest alternate counterpart is disastrous?

I believe you're missing the actual issue here which consists of two things:
-Players not paying enough attention
-The Encumbering Stone not being noticeable enough

If you loot a chest you should check the items you get, even if you're busy surviving or might not be able to check it out right away, you should be able to remember that you just picked something up and that picking up items worked fine previously.

The Encumbering Stone does have blue rarity, so if you loot it from a chest via loot all it will be visible and should spark the interest of a player.
However it's still quite easy to forget that you have it equipped.$
(especially when dealing with new items like the Football where you don't know if they'll have a delay)
Showing a Debuff Icon or alternatively adding a inventory toggle (that's set to off by default) like the paint roller, block swap and a few other items have would greatly help.
Even though both would be out of the scope of this and the debuff icon would take up a buff slot (then again so do the Heart Lantern/Campfire, Banners, Peace/Water Candle, Bast Statue and so on)

This isn't something like increasing Pickaxe Power to speed up mining, which would have the side effect of allowing you to mine higher tier ore and break progress, neither a weapon which could be buffed too high, making the subsequent weapons useless, nor an accessory of a complex crafting tree, which could be obtained too early, it's just one item that allows for a specific mechanic, unrelated to anything else.

The only disadvantages you have from getting it via a crate is that you lack a storage item to put it back into as well as potentially getting multiple.
However, as long as just have one, you can still pick it up from the inventory and pick up items while holding it, or put it into the Piggy Bank (also works for multiple) where it'll no longer give it's effect.
It's also only a 1/7 drop and you wouldn't usually get that many Oasis/Mirage Crates in the first place.
If you saved them up/when opening Crates in general, it's recommended doing that near storage items as they can quickly flood your inventory with all sorts of items.

Also I'm fairly certain that this item wasn't intentionally left out of the crates, at least not for that reason.

Speaking of which though:

My full proposal is that the Band of Starpower should still be a Shadow Orb item with the Band of Regeneration becoming a Crimson Heart item (or at least an item you can get from the Crimson) with the opposite band to the one your world evil provides being able to be found underground where the Band of Regeneration is now. (If your world is Corruption, the Band of Regen will be underground whereas if your world is Crimson, the Band of Starpower will be underground). This way, it'd be possible to get the Magic Cuffs on both kinds of worlds natively.

While the idea seems nice in theory, given the opposite biomes as well as the flesh/blood theme, it doesn't work as well in practice.
The Band of Regeneration is useful for all classes while the Band of Starpower only works for one class and isn't really that great.
Sure the Underground Chests have the Mace, a Melee Weapon, but I don't think that Terraria was really intended to be played as pure class right from the beginning, also you might not even have a magic weapon by that point.
The Band of Regeneration on the other hand greatly helps in the earlygame where the health regeneration is still lower due to lower maximum health as well as during boss battles.
Doing this would also mean that the Panic Necklace would still be exclusive to Crimson Worlds and the Crimson would have an extra accessory on top of also having The Rotted Fork (Sure, the Corruption has the Ball O' Hurt but the Crimson has The Meatball which even has slightly better stats)

 

[Wolfen CQ]

Speaking of which though:

While the idea seems nice in theory, given the opposite biomes as well as the flesh/blood theme, it doesn't work as well in practice.
The Band of Regeneration is useful for all classes while the Band of Starpower only works for one class and isn't really that great.
Sure the Underground Chests have the Mace, a Melee Weapon, but I don't think that Terraria was really intended to be played as pure class right from the beginning, also you might not even have a magic weapon by that point.
The Band of Regeneration on the other hand greatly helps in the earlygame where the health regeneration is still lower due to lower maximum health as well as during boss battles.
Doing this would also mean that the Panic Necklace would still be exclusive to Crimson Worlds and the Crimson would have an extra accessory on top of also having The Rotted Fork (Sure, the Corruption has the Ball O' Hurt but the Crimson has The Meatball which even has slightly better stats)

did you read the full suggestion? It means you can get both bands on both kinds of worlds, just in different ways, yeah the panic necklace is something to be addressed but we already had a discussion about that, plus the reason why the band of starpower is good for mages is because it can be combined with the band of regen and turn them into the magic cuffs.

The flesh and blood theme fits the band of regen too

 

[r543]

did you read the full suggestion? It means you can get both bands on both kinds of worlds, just in different ways, yeah the panic necklace is something to be addressed but we already had a discussion about that, plus the reason why the band of starpower is good for mages is because it can be combined with the band of regen and turn them into the magic cuffs.

The flesh and blood theme fits the band of regen too

I did, I did also consider the points in the game when you obtain them.
While the cuffs are a good accessory (sad that the Mana Regeneration Band often gets overlooked with it's function being lost when crafted into the cuffs) the Band of Starpower itself isn't and you won't be able to upgrade it until you get the Goblin Tinkerer and the other band (most likely after the Eater/Brain since the first Orb/Heart gives you the ranged weapon and the third spawns the boss, unless you want to fish of course)

 

[Catson]

The only thing that's broken about it is people's mice. If you can rapidly keep clicking to keep a sword going, then you can just as well make it auto-swing and save your mouse.
The attack speed shouldn't change anyway.

Thankfully there are only a few non-auto-swing weapons in hardmode, where it really starts to matter. Would be nice to see the Beam Sword and Chloro Claymore changed though. And it would also be nice to see the Venus Magnum changed too, now that I think of it. I absolutely never use the thing, due to having to manually click.

But then again, not every weapon needs to be useful for every single person; I'm sure there are people out there that like these kind of weapons.

I second this, particularly the Beam Sword – which functions as an upgrade to the Enchanted Sword, but for some reason does not autoswing like the Enchanted Sword.

Again. in hard-mode there is an item that makes all melee weapons and whips auto-swing just kill a mimic or set up a mob farm.

 

[Gotcha!]

@ Catson: True that! This totally slipped my mind. Thank you.

 

[Catson]

@ Catson: True that! This totally slipped my mind. Thank you.

No problem. You're welcome!

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Here's an idea: If Sandstorm in a Bottle can't be added to fishing crates, can it be added to Sandstone Chests in the Underground Desert?

If they're not willing to add it to crates or make Pyramids more prevalent, or any number of other things, it seems abundantly clear that the devs don't want Sandstorm in a Bottle to be prevalent. They want it to be exceedingly rare, only gotten by those who are very lucky or those who generated world after world just to find one.

That is, it's not an item you're supposed to find; it's an item you accidentally encounter.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

The only disadvantages you have from getting it via a crate is that you lack a storage item to put it back into as well as potentially getting multiple...

No, no & no. See, that's one of the many drawbacks of shortsighted suggestions. As a person who loves fishing, cracking up to 99 stacks of crates at a time, the Encumbering Stone would not only be annoying, but specifically annoying to only a certain Biome Crate specifically. When making changes like this, you have to account for all kinds of players, this isn't a filthy casual verse hardcore-gamer issue, or a place where we get to suggest what a player should see or realize. Encumbering Stone violates a LOT of fundamental rules the player is taught in-game & suddenly changes them, new or old (especially veterans), I've had the luxury of seeing the response to this item personally & from testimonials.

It's a cool & useful item, no doubt, but it is game-breaking in a LOT of ways & should be no surprise to anyone that it causes so much confusion. Aside from a player being absent minded, what happens if a player had just killed Plantera for example, went to lift the Encumbering Stone from their inventory, but got kicked by the server before they got the chance to collect her loot? Developers have to look at scenarios like this from a very unbiased & technical perspective. Just because it sounds good in concept, doesn't mean it'll perform well in practice. I currently think that Encumbering Stone is a bad item, cool concept, but poorly implemented. It should have a toggle, which is what I think you suggested earlier, much like the ruler item. It doesn't make it's presence know well enough for what it actually does; which again, is pretty game-breaking.

This being the case, it should absolutely NOT be added to Crates, even if a toggle was added in later, it needs to remain in chests as it is now, where the Player needs to loot the item on purpose, or even by accident, but at least be able to trace their steps. A random Crate drop is just too chaotic.

 

[Catson]

If they're not willing to add it to crates or make Pyramids more prevalent, or any number of other things, it seems abundantly clear that the devs don't want Sandstorm in a Bottle to be prevalent. They want it to be exceedingly rare, only gotten by those who are very lucky or those who generated world after world just to find one.

That is, it's not an item you're supposed to find; it's an item you accidentally encounter.

Oddly enough this was my first anything in a bottle I found in my world mostly because a giant tree was right next to a pyramid so that how I got it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Folks missed where I said "most weapons". Some have different behaviors; that's cool. But the vast majority of weapons just shouldn't lack autoswing. I am not my character, I am the player; if I hold the attack button, with most weapons it's pretty safe to assume I want my character to keep attacking. And yeah... I miss Omniswing. I also miss having the choice.

As for dash:
It DOES have its uses. I'm not saying get rid of it. But having it tied to movement means any little double-tap you do to adjust or correct my movement, intentional or not, sends you blasting off WAY past where you wanted to go. Often, into trouble. Having dash tied directly to left/right movement keys ---with no alternate option--- pretty much means I avoid dash. (I'd say "like the plague", but, telling from peoples' reaction to the pandemic, it seems people don't actually do that.) And, since dash is incorporated into Master Ninja Gear, that also means no MLG, just using Black Belt for the evasion.

A simple approach to both issues would be to just offer a toggle in Options for autoswing (and flag specific weapons as exceptions), and an option to assign a hotkey for Dash; unassigned, it'd default to left/right movement keys. Poof! All good!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Oddly enough this was my first anything in a bottle I found in my world mostly because a giant tree was right next to a pyramid so that how I got it.

Actually, me too! My very first game ever, it was my very first jump bottle! But... yeah. That Sandstorm is part of Bunch, but there's no way to get it if it doesn't generate in a pyramid, seems to be short-sighted. With everything else they've smoothed out, it seems this is just a bit of an oversight.

 

[Dapling]

Folks missed where I said "most weapons". Some have different behaviors; that's cool. But the vast majority of weapons just shouldn't lack autoswing. I am not my character, I am the player; if I hold the attack button, with most weapons it's pretty safe to assume I want my character to keep attacking. And yeah... I miss Omniswing. I also miss having the choice.

Maybe just don't play melee? It's the only class that consistently lacks it in hardmode. Prehardmode is probably meant to be more slow and methodical, and autoswing goes against that (especially with how powerful bows are in prehardmode already)

For those of you who don't think it affects weapon balance, trust me, it does. Unless you can time your weapons frame perfectly, autoswing gives you more damage per second.

 

[Catson]

Folks missed where I said "most weapons". Some have different behaviors; that's cool. But the vast majority of weapons just shouldn't lack autoswing. I am not my character, I am the player; if I hold the attack button, with most weapons it's pretty safe to assume I want my character to keep attacking. And yeah... I miss Omniswing. I also miss having the choice.

As for dash:
It DOES have its uses. I'm not saying get rid of it. But having it tied to movement means any little double-tap you do to adjust or correct my movement, intentional or not, sends you blasting off WAY past where you wanted to go. Often, into trouble. Having dash tied directly to left/right movement keys ---with no alternate option--- pretty much means I avoid dash. (I'd say "like the plague", but, telling from peoples' reaction to the pandemic, it seems people don't actually do that.) And, since dash is incorporated into Master Ninja Gear, that also means no MLG, just using Black Belt for the evasion.

A simple approach to both issues would be to just offer a toggle in Options for autoswing (and flag specific weapons as exceptions), and an option to assign a hotkey for Dash; unassigned, it'd default to left/right movement keys. Poof! All good!

Sir/ma'am this is the final time I will say this. Once you get into hard mode there is an item that allows auto swing for EVERY melee weapon and whip. If you're in pre-hard mode and can't get this item I am sorry for you, but just work harder in order to get into hard mode. If you can't get mimics then look any mimic/mod farm design it'll help you greatly.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Folks missed where I said "most weapons". Some have different behaviors; that's cool. But the vast majority of weapons just shouldn't lack autoswing. I am not my character, I am the player; if I hold the attack button, with most weapons it's pretty safe to assume I want my character to keep attacking.

One could easily say the same thing about aiming at a particular enemy. If the weapon doesn't arc, and I pointed at a target and hold down the fire button, then clearly I want to keep firing at wherever that enemy happens to be, not just at the cursor.

Not automating a particular aspect of the controls to allow for player skill is a standard part of game design.

It DOES have its uses. I'm not saying get rid of it. But having it tied to movement means any little double-tap you do to adjust or correct my movement, intentional or not, sends you blasting off WAY past where you wanted to go. Often, into trouble. Having dash tied directly to left/right movement keys ---with no alternate option--- pretty much means I avoid dash. (I'd say "like the plague", but, telling from peoples' reaction to the pandemic, it seems people don't actually do that.) And, since dash is incorporated into Master Ninja Gear, that also means no MLG, just using Black Belt for the evasion.

Again, mechanical skill is a valid dimension of the design of a game's interface.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sir/ma'am this is the final time I will say this. Once you get into hard mode there is an item that allows auto swing for EVERY melee weapon and whip. If you're in pre-hard mode and can't get this item I am sorry for you, but just work harder in order to get into hard mode. If you can't get mimics then look any mimic/mod farm design it'll help you greatly.

It's "Sir", thanks, and, with over 4,000 hours played, I already know about the glove... but its existence isn't relevant to my argument.
I am not the character, I am the player. In most cases, if I hold "Attack", I probably want the character to keep attacking.

 

[Jabberwocky]

One could easily say the same thing about aiming at a particular enemy. If the weapon doesn't arc, and I pointed at a target and hold down the fire button, then clearly I want to keep firing at wherever that enemy happens to be, not just at the cursor.

Not automating a particular aspect of the controls to allow for player skill is a standard part of game design.



Again, mechanical skill is a valid dimension of the design of a game's interface.

Flexibility of game interface is also a part of valid game design; something I've watched develop in the industry since games as early as Pitfall, when systems started implementing the ability to "pause". Just because you play the game one way does not mean I should have to, for instance... especially when the solutions for both our preferences is so easy to implement.

 

[Catson]

It's "Sir", thanks, and, with over 4,000 hours played, I already know about the glove... but its existence isn't relevant to my argument.
I am not the character, I am the player. In most cases, if I hold "Attack", I probably want the character to keep attacking.

I get your point nvm.

 

[Bry]

I'd also don't really love the sarcastic/condescending attitude towards some of our design choices. I'm happy to have a dialogue, but it doesn't feel like one on my end the way you constantly repeatedly insult certain things you dislike.

Sorry, sorry; I'm letting a LOT more attitude slip in than I should have. That won't happen again, I promise.

Cursed Inferno/Venom are mid-game debuffs. They can be safely buffed without significant impact on the early game.

On Fire is available day 1 to just about anyone, from a variety of sources. I can't buff the On Fire of Fire Gauntlets without buffing the On Fire of Fire Arrows, Wand of Sparking, etc. And adding a new redundant buff entirely is a harder sell for me to make.

For what its worth, On Fire is a perfectly viable buff in the early game, it just doesn't scale up well at all, and that means fire-based items in the mid-game either "don't inflict On Fire at all", or they just have to live with the early game buff.

"Can't we just make On Fire! deal more damage as soon as hardmode starts? It doesn't seem like a big problem since it doesn't affect early game weapons."

That might be possible, but I'm not sure if it will be approved. Worth noting that, based on previous conversations, the Player-On-Fire would also have to be buffed as well if we did that.

Is there a way you could make it so the Magma Stone and its tinkers, themselves, can increase On Fire's damage when equipped? That would solve both issues presented here.

As an aside, no, I haven't had time to look into Cursed Inferno/Venom. They are likely behaving exactly as they were when 1.4 came out. If they are doing 24/30, then that is intended at the current balance level.

Alrighty; thank yoouu!

Well, there's no rule that says an accessory "must" stay a certain class type. Its thematically appropriate, and that's good enough for me.

Oh, no yeah, I corrected myself in that last post; I really like the idea now. That whole nitpick was super hypocritical on my part, hilariously enough.
I hadn't even realized that the arrows were supposed to be turned into the Flaming Arrow item; I just assumed they were Wooden Arrows that inflicted On Fire. That sounds super stupid when I say it out loud, but you get what I mean.

I'd rather leave Thorns underpowered forever than accidentally increase its potency WAY too much forever. Nothing ever critically broke because Thorns Potion was too weak. Its entirely possible that something could break from over-buffing Thorns damage.

I honestly could not begin to guess what could break from Thorns, but I'll take your word for that. Again, though, the numbers don't necessarily have to be exactly what I suggest; we can find a middle-ground that works.

I'd love to do a Mirror Shield, or, what I would be more in favor of, Reflective Shades (Mirror + Blindfold) and lump it into Ankh Shield. But I didn't get approval on it when I brought it up before.

Aw, I really like that visual, too! Interesting that that got denied, though.

That is well into "rework" territory, out of my scope.

Right, sorry, my bad.

I think, fundamentally, there is a design philosophy that not all items must be available in a single world. Pyramids are the most obvious example of that, but it is not limited to them.

A lot of people want everything available in one world. That is not currently something Terraria guarantees. We've moved towards more renewability in 1.4, but there are a number of holdout examples that haven't quite been made guaranteed/renewable yet.

I understand the idea of wanting players to not just have the same items every time, and the world evils, as well as ores, are a good example of that, giving you completely different items to use in place of others. However, with stuff like the Sandstorm in a Bottle or Enchanted Sword, it's just "you get it or you don't," and the chance of actually getting it (and the challenge involved) is disproportionately low when compared to other items in the game. If you don't get the item, it just kinda leaves a hole. Rare enemy drops and fishing loot don't do this, as they CAN be gotten with enough patience without having to generate new worlds for the sole purpose of finding a specific item or two (though the Enchanted Sword is kind of pushing a lot of people's patience). It feels a little out of place and comparatively unfair when put alongside most other content in the game. That's the way I see it, anyways.
I dunno, though, maybe I'm just as stupid as I look.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

It's "Sir", thanks, and, with over 4,000 hours played, I already know about the glove... but its existence isn't relevant to my argument.
I am not the character, I am the player. In most cases, if I hold "Attack", I probably want the character to keep attacking.

That doesn't mean you should be able to. Again, if I hold attack, I probably want to keep shooting the enemy I just shot. But the game doesn't give me that either; I have to manually move the cursor.

Why is your suggestion so different?

Flexibility of game interface is also a part of valid game design; something I've watched develop in the industry since games as early as Pitfall, when systems started implementing the ability to "pause". Just because you play the game one way does not mean I should have to, for instance... especially when the solutions for both our preferences is so easy to implement.

First, this is not about how I or any individual person plays the game; it's about how the game developers want the game to work. Choices like that are what game design is.

Second, you ignored my point. Specifically, that your argument is not a good argument because it could be used to justify any kind of automation feature. Being the player doesn't give you the right to have anything in the game that you want. Game design is all about choosing what a player should be allowed to do and when restricting players from doing it is interesting game design.

This is not a matter of your personal preferences; it's a matter of game balance. The game is not balanced around all melee weapons being auto-swing, just as the game isn't balanced around all ranged weapons having auto-targeting, just as the game isn't balanced around giving the player automatic healing. You could justify adding any of these, but then you'd have to radically change the game to compensate for them.

For a game that has had its last major revision, such radical change just isn't going to happen. And thus, changes that require other radical changes aren't going to happen.

 

[CrabBar]

No, no & no. See, that's one of the many drawbacks of shortsighted suggestions. As a person who loves fishing, cracking up to 99 stacks of crates at a time, the Encumbering Stone would not only be annoying, but specifically annoying to only a certain Biome Crate specifically. When making changes like this, you have to account for all kinds of players, this isn't a filthy casual verse hardcore-gamer issue, or a place where we get to suggest what a player should see or realize. Encumbering Stone violates a LOT of fundamental rules the player is taught in-game & suddenly changes them, new or old (especially veterans), I've had the luxury of seeing the response to this item personally & from testimonials.

It's a cool & useful item, no doubt, but it is game-breaking in a LOT of ways & should be no surprise to anyone that it causes so much confusion. Aside from a player being absent minded, what happens if a player had just killed Plantera for example, went to lift the Encumbering Stone from their inventory, but got kicked by the server before they got the chance to collect her loot? Developers have to look at scenarios like this from a very unbiased & technical perspective. Just because it sounds good in concept, doesn't mean it'll perform well in practice. I currently think that Encumbering Stone is a bad item, cool concept, but poorly implemented. It should have a toggle, which is what I think you suggested earlier, much like the ruler item. It doesn't make it's presence know well enough for what it actually does; which again, is pretty game-breaking.

This being the case, it should absolutely NOT be added to Crates, even if a toggle was added in later, it needs to remain in chests as it is now, where the Player needs to loot the item on purpose, or even by accident, but at least be able to trace their steps. A random Crate drop is just too chaotic.

If it was a consumable toggle like Torch God's Favor I'm pretty sure this is acknowledgeable enough for an average player to not confuse it as much as it may right now. You will have to explicitly use it first (and hopefully read the description beforehand) before it starts functioning.

(bonus points is that there will be no need to take it out of inventory to momentarily collect the loot: that was the main issue I have experienced while using Encumbering Stone on practice)