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New ways of Summoning

Victoic

Headless Horseman
This was in the old forums, now I'm posting again here
First of all, English is not my primary language so please correct any mistake I make.

Second, those are not specific items ideas, those are ideas of new ways for items to work and I would really love specific items ideas using those new ways.

I'm really excited with Summoner becoming a real class, but it still feels like a secondary class, I mean you use it as support while using the other 3 main classes, and that's good but I would like to be possible that one could go full summoner and not suck.

So I have these ideas of different summons that would define more the summoner class:

Debuff Applying Summons: Something like a mini Ichor Sticker that applies Ichor to the enemy or a Lava Slime/Bat that applies On Fire!

Life Stealing Summons: They would have a minor attack but would recover their summoner life, would work like Vampire Knives, imagine mini vampires or a leeches.

Defense Summons: Those would reduce enemies damage inflicted on the player OR they could have some HP and the enemy would take their life first, like they jump in front of projectiles or something like that.
Something like a Slime that intercepts attacks or a Tortoise receiving most of your damage. Or even better, we have this @FlakMaster idea:
One idea for a minion would be one that creates a shield around you, however it is directional with around 60 degrees coverage and where it is depends on where your cursor is. It displays a few blocks away from the player too, not actually on the player. The shield itself survives one hit and the minion takes six seconds to recharge it. One minion might not be helpful, but remember that you can have up to (I believe) 9 minions for a potential of 9 shields. Following the shield idea, you could have a turret minion that deploys a bubble shield around it, blocking a certain amount of damage until it gets destroyed and recharges.

Monstrous Summons: Those would be Summoner main weapon, they would summon some real bad :red: monsters, but they would work more like a normal magic weapon, you would have to hold the mouse to ha keep them summoned, so you may only have one of them summoned at one time. Obviously they would have a similar damage to real weapons.
Just think an EoC like monster or a Wyvern.

Summon State Modifiers: Staffs that activate effects on already summoned minions, they could buff them for some time or have the sustained effect cited above. Also they could be minion specific, as in you have a minion of a certain kind summoned and when/while you use this staff it (and only it) changes, enters a rage mode or something.
Let's say there is a bunny summon. Now think of a staff, let's call it blood staff, it would turn your bunny summon into its Blood Moon equivalent while pressed consuming your mana.

I'm not adding any specific item and/or status, but i would appreciate ideas of items and suggestions to this suggestion.
 
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FlakMaster

The Destroyer
The only thing that catches my eye here is 'Monstrous Summons'. Support minions as a concept is definitely interesting but a simple damage mitigation minion is kind of boring. And a big nu-uh to more life-steal.
 

Youfad

Skeletron Prime
I like it! Very much so, but how about defensive summons that attract the attention of the mobs? Not really sure how that would work but I am just giving an idea.
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
Thanks for the feedback, both of you.
FlakMaster, there could be buff-givers or healers summons, what do you think would make defensive summon more exciting?
And I understand the nu-uh for more life-stealing, but if Summoner was to become a complete class it would not be "more" life-stealing it would the summoner version of life-stealing (unless your "nu-uh" is for general life-stealing, then there is nothing for me to say... i like life-stealing).

Youfad, I really like the idea of attracting enemies, but, as you, I don't really see how would that work, I see it running forward the enemy (because if it stay close to us it would not be very useful, right?) but after that it could have some life and hold the enemy while it can and then sometime after it died it would respawn.
 

FlakMaster

The Destroyer
FlakMaster, there could be buff-givers or healers summons, what do you think would make defensive summon more exciting?

My idea of specialised is something that does not directly increase survivability or damage, this means it should not be:
- Raising damage/critical/speed
- Raising defence
- Health Regeneration
- Life-leech (One can argue that life-leech is indirect, but with how much you hit enemies in this game you literally have a tube of life connecting to you almost 24/7)

So, if you create something supportive/defensive that is not either of these four, then chances are it is a sweet, original idea. One idea for a minion would be one that creates a shield around you, however it is directional with around 60 degrees coverage and where it is depends on where your cursor is. It displays a few blocks away from the player too, not actually on the player. The shield itself survives one hit and the minion takes six seconds to recharge it. One minion might not be helpful, but remember that you can have up to (I believe) 9 minions for a potential of 9 shields. Following the shield idea, you could have a turret minion that deploys a bubble shield around it, blocking a certain amount of damage until it gets destroyed and recharges.

Both of those ideas are something that does not help you directly; instead they are something that you need to properly integrate with to get a decent amount of effect.

And I understand the nu-uh for more life-stealing, but if Summoner was to become a complete class it would not be "more" life-stealing it would the summoner version of life-stealing (unless your "nu-uh" is for general life-stealing, then there is nothing for me to say... i like life-stealing).

It is generally speaking. Fact is, life-leech has been too much of a hassle to balance and is still a tricky subject to touch on as Spectre Hood/Vampire knives still grant god-mode. If anything was to change for life-leech, it would be to make VK's a baseless accessory. I don't even think that is needed to be honest, as every class has access to them. People used to moan a lot about Rangers not having life-steal, I said to them that you can still use VK's with Shroomite armour. They said it wouldn't be effective, of which I then went to the Pumpkin Moon wave15, stood completely still and tanked everything with the weapon.[/QUOTE]
 

Pixel

Terrarian
It's pretty cool, though I wouldn't see something like this, a bit unnecessary to say the least, being used by me. Whether I'm a summoner or not. I guess my support is granted, there isn't that much I see that's wrong with this suggestion.
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
So, if you create something supportive/defensive that is not either of these four, then chances are it is a sweet, original idea. One idea for a minion would be one that creates a shield around you, however it is directional with around 60 degrees coverage and where it is depends on where your cursor is. It displays a few blocks away from the player too, not actually on the player. The shield itself survives one hit and the minion takes six seconds to recharge it. One minion might not be helpful, but remember that you can have up to (I believe) 9 minions for a potential of 9 shields. Following the shield idea, you could have a turret minion that deploys a bubble shield around it, blocking a certain amount of damage until it gets destroyed and recharges.

Wow, what great ideas!
You see? Summoner could be so much more if there was more variations in what it could do. Can i quote it in the OP?

It is generally speaking. Fact is, life-leech has been too much of a hassle to balance and is still a tricky subject to touch on as Spectre Hood/Vampire knives still grant god-mode. If anything was to change for life-leech, it would be to make VK's a baseless accessory. I don't even think that is needed to be honest, as every class has access to them. People used to moan a lot about Rangers not having life-steal, I said to them that you can still use VK's with Shroomite armour. They said it wouldn't be effective, of which I then went to the Pumpkin Moon wave15, stood completely still and tanked everything with the weapon.

I still think it would be nice, and Vampire Knives for Ranged is not the same, they should have one life-stealing weapon of they own too. I don't really see why should there not, is it because of PvP? Make the terms before the battle. But that's a subject for another topic, the idea here is ascend the Summoner (sub)class to a whole class.
 

FlakMaster

The Destroyer
Wow, what great ideas!
You see? Summoner could be so much more if there was more variations in what it could do. Can i quote it in the OP?

Feel free to.

I still think it would be nice, and Vampire Knives for Ranged is not the same, they should have one life-stealing weapon of they own too. I don't really see why should there not, is it because of PvP? Make the terms before the battle. But that's a subject for another topic, the idea here is ascend the Summoner (sub)class to a whole class.

No, nothing to do with PvP. Vampire Knives should essentially be classless because people are thinking you should only use it for Melee when in fact it works perfectly fine for any other class, including mage. But I'll leave it at that.
 

Sur

Skeletron Prime
You would like it to be possible to go full summoner and not suck? *cough*
anyone?*cough*
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
You would like it to be possible to go full summoner and not suck? *cough* (YT video was here) anyone?*cough*
That was really entertaining, but as this image says:
O0QmpvS.png
It is Yrimir this video is about..

This video is in no way a good example that summoner class works well, a full video about being a summoner without a single summon, the whole game start and you can't make a single attack, get it?
I know you can't use magic or ranged weapons in the game start as well, but they're way easier to obtain.

But the point of this topic was not that, it was that the game-play for a full summoner is boring and it could be made more "active", maybe now, with 1.3, it changed, at least for end-game, but still.
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
Off topic: Did he saved his friends yet? I think I'll watch this.

Back on topic. As mentioned this is not ordinary terrarian, it's Yrimir.
And ok, it can be efficient, but I still don't find it a active role to play, like from start to end, also too difficult for one to get a suiting weapon in a normal game-play, and it could be improved, at least in my view.
What I'm trying to say is: ok, you're a mid-game summoner, you summon those spiders of yours, then what? You hope they kill everyone before they reach you. What about all that remaining mana you have? There COULD be a way of burning it. That's what I'm trying to say with sustaining summons, also they COULD apply debuffs, every other class can, so why not?

Off topic again: I myself wouldn't consider Nimbus Rod a summon weapon.
 

Pseudoname

Terrarian
like the debuff thing(it'd take some balancing maybe but yeah), ablative armor minion seems good, but not "summon and ignore" defense(that just keeps the class passive), and no summon lifesteal

I like it! Very much so, but how about defensive summons that attract the attention of the mobs? Not really sure how that would work but I am just giving an idea.
if they did that they should be killable
[DOUBLEPOST=1438044447,1438043947][/DOUBLEPOST]
I don't really see why should there not
well for one thing the devs saw fit to remove it for the final boss(and the final boss alone) because you could effortlessly tank him in light mage armor...
a boss who had no special vulnerability to this.... he got a bandaid because devs don't want to deal with it but if it was broken there its just flat broken.
(honestly it should be rebalanced ground up, and specter hood should be just removed. make a specter spell instead. balance it when they do the knives)

as for minion life steal specifically? it is and with your suggestions continues to be a hybrid halfclass, your bats would be usable with the knives. of anybody summon needs a specific item least of all
 
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Victoic

Headless Horseman
as for minion life steal specifically? it is and with your suggestions continues to be a hybrid bastard class, your bats would be usable with the knives. of anybody summon needs a specific item least of all
I am aware of the history of pain Relogic had with leeching, so I'm fully conscious that this is likely not to be added and can see how this could be exploited with a army of minions + vampire knives.
But I can think of a few way it could be implemented correctly:
  • The leeching could be in a Summoner Armor, having a small chance that a small percentage of a minion attack heals the player;
  • There could be a staff the activates this kind of effect in the minions summoned, while being sustained by the player, consuming mana; *
  • It could be a Monstrous Summon, which means it could not be overused, if done correctly;
* Staffs that activate effects on already summoned minions, they could buff them for some time or have the sustained effect cited above. Also they could be minion specific, as in you have a minion of a certain kind summoned and when/while you use this staff it (and only it) changes, enters a rage mode or something. What do you think? Should I add it to the suggestion?
 

XenoCat

Steampunker
I recently made a suggestion about making summoners more active, though I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean by this suggestion.
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
I recently made a suggestion about making summoners more active, though I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean by this suggestion.
I believe any addition (addition, not change) to make summoners more active would be nice, so I really liked your idea there, it remembers me of @Pseudoname suggestion on @Youfad suggestion about my suggestion (suggestiception!).
 

Sur

Skeletron Prime
Off topic: He's pretty close.

Topic: Well yah he is Yri the unkillable but I was never disagreeing with your ideas (they're great btw sorry for not saying so sooner) just disagreeing with one little thing you said.

Off topic again: it deals summon dmg (check the info) and it summons a nimbus cloud. But the clinger staff summons a wall of cursed flames and it deals magic dmg. Great logic Red.
 

Victoic

Headless Horseman
Topic: Well yah he is Yri the unkillable but I was never disagreeing with your ideas (they're great btw sorry for not saying so sooner) just disagreeing with one little thing you said.
Thank you, and I may have exaggerated saying it is impossible not to suck as a full summoner, even though Yrimir can make a naked terrarian with a stick not suck the whole game. xD

Off topic again: it deals summon dmg (check the info) and it summons a nimbus cloud. But the clinger staff summons a wall of cursed flames and it deals magic dmg. Great logic Red.
Magic dmg, actually, just checked my game here. The wiki says so as well. I would consider that summons must be alive things.
 
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