Items Reworking the Shadowflame Knife

[twofoursixeight]

The Shadowflame Knife feels too ranged for a melee class weapon. Perhaps we can rework it in some way:

Damage: 38-30
Use Time: 12-6
Use Animation: 12 (same)
Velocity: 2 less than Shadowflame Hex Doll
Other: The projectile will now share the same projectile as the hex doll. It will be useful for crowds. It will inflict a debuff of shadowflame. Will now ignore 20 defense.
Average DPS: 205 -> 295

 

[pwrwq]

i feel like it should be changed, but less like the doll, still unique but also more closer-ranged

 

[Heath04🌳]

Reworking a weapon because it doesn't feel like it's in the right class doesn't make sense to me. Do you think Zenith feels like Melee? Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this rework, but Shadowflame Knife is kind of crucial in melee progression. Currently melee doesn't have a whole lot of range in the premech stage, sure you have bananarangs and drippler crippler but for viable good weapons there isn't a lot. Removing shadowflame knife out of that pool makes things harder for melee and makes a really fun build, debuff, no longer viable premech.

 

[J Bame]

so let's get this straight

you dont like shadowflame knife because "it feels like a ranged weapon"

so you reworked it into a weapon extremely similar to the shadowflame hex doll, a literal magic weapon?

 

[vessal]

i dont support this the shadow flame knife is where it should be maby it could use a little range nerf but also there is a reason why by the time melee becomes a ranger like class when bosses begin to fly away and deal damage high enof to make defence worthless. the resion why weapons like this exist is so melee is not irrelevant in hardmode melee only becomes good when it stops being melee

 

[Russ Guss Doodles]

The problem with the Shadow Flame Knife isn't that it "feels like a ranged weapon." Basing your argument around the fact a weapon's behavior doesn't match its class makes no sense (since TONS of weapons don't match their class) and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Melee class works. However, the Shadowflame Knife does need a rework since it has more reach than most Melee weapons at its point in progression, but turning it into a slightly different Shadow Flame Hex Doll isn't the solution. The real way to fix it is to have the thrown knives fall faster while having enough reach to hit bosses like the Twins. This solution would follow how the Melee class makes you get comparatively closer to enemies while not completely replacing what people love about the Shadowflame Knife.

 

[twofoursixeight]

The problem with the Shadow Flame Knife isn't that it "feels like a ranged weapon." Basing your argument around the fact a weapon's behavior doesn't match its class makes no sense, since TONS of weapons don't match their class, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Melee class works. However, the Shadowflame Knife does need a rework since it has more reach than most Melee weapons at its point in progression, but turning it into a slightly different Shadow Flame Hex Doll isn't the solution. The real way to fix it is to have the thrown knives fall faster while having enough reach to hit bosses like the Twins. This solution would follow how the Melee class makes you get comparatively closer to enemies while not completely replacing what people love about the Shadowflame Knife.

I know, can we make the projectile disappear after a certain range like a late-game yoyo's reach, and hitting an enemy resets the disappear timer?

 

[Russ Guss Doodles]

I know, can we make the projectile disappear after a certain range like a late-game yoyo's reach, and hitting an enemy resets the disappear timer?

That could also work and it would match how the Vampire Knives behave.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

It's interesting to hear that Shadowflame Knife is still considered, in some aspects, a "Rescue Cat" even in 1.4.4.9.

I'd argue that it's likely no better than the likes of a Titanium Trident/ Armor combo at this point in progression [especially if you use Minions/ Sentries]. Potency critiques aside, I do agree that the reasons being suggested for the change are a bit... meh, but only because, as previously mentioned by others, this can be said for LOTS of Weapons in the game.

I think part of the games charm is its purposefully nonsensical nature at times; there's something to be said about destroying enemies with a giant "Fish Missile", or having a legitimate fear of Giant Turtles.

 

[Heath04🌳]

I'd argue that it's likely no better than the likes of a Titanium Trident/ Armor combo at this point in progression [especially if you use Minions/ Sentries]. Potency critiques aside, I do agree that the reasons being suggested for the change are a bit... meh, but only because, as previously mentioned by others, this can be said for LOTS of Weapons in the game.

I'm ngl at first I was really perplexed because hardmode ore weapons are usually really bad, but Titanium Trident has a unique element to it in which it can deal a ton of damage to Destroyer which is fine it can be a good weapon for destroyer, especially when he first spawns as the ball you can get a sweet 22k dps. The thing bout shadowflame knives though is that they're really good for a safe ranged melee build and really good if you wanna play debuff.
This is my debuff build for premech, it can extend as far as post plant as of 1.4.4. So while Titanium Trident is a good option for destroyer specifically, I would go shadowflame any other day for Twins, Prime, and Queen Slime.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I'm ngl at first I was really perplexed because hardmode ore weapons are usually really bad, but Titanium Trident has a unique element to it in which it can deal a ton of damage to Destroyer...

I'm not sure how closely it's been looked at since 1.4.4.9, but most the Spear/ Pike/ Partisan Weapons are pretty gnarly, and considering the fact that nearly all Ore Weapons have direct upgrades, Gungnir would be the direct upgrade for Trident, followed by Chlorophyte Partisan (which is pretty busted IMHO).

The thing bout shadowflame knives though is that they're really good for a safe ranged melee build and really good if you wanna play debuff...it can extend as far as post plant as of 1.4.4. So while Titanium Trident is a good option for destroyer specifically, I would go shadowflame any other day for Twins, Prime, and Queen Slime.

I guess my question would be, how do you maintain the build pre/ post Plantera? Do you keep Frostburn/ Frostbite, or is it replaced with some other Debuff Mechanic? I'm asking only because I don't see Frost Armor doing very well pre/ post-Plantera.

 

[Heath04🌳]

I'm not sure how closely it's been looked at since 1.4.4.9, but most the Spear/ Pike/ Partisan Weapons are pretty gnarly, and considering the fact that nearly all Ore Weapons have direct upgrades, Gungnir would be the direct upgrade for Trident, followed by Chlorophyte Partisan (which is pretty busted IMHO).

I have tested both Partisan and Debuff against Plantera, Partisan is 1m9s and debuff is 1m20s I do like just playing debuff it's a slower but really safe pick because of the range. Partisan would have a faster time using minions like I did with debuff but partisan alone is still faster.

I guess my question would be, how do you maintain the build pre/ post Plantera? Do you keep Frostburn/ Frostbite, or is it replaced with some other Debuff Mechanic? I'm asking only because I don't see Frost Armor doing very well pre/ post-Plantera.

Again to answer this question, you don't really cut much. The debuff build can handle invasions pretty well so solar eclipse and the moons it can do decent against too, especially the ground enemies. What you're stacking with the build is Frostbite from set bonus (-25dps), Cursed Inferno from flask (-24dps), Venom from spider queen staff or spiders summon (-30dps) and Shadowflame from the knives (-15dps). The build isn't the best for Golem obviously, but I was able to kill him under 2 mins still. And for a premech build to decently handle it's way up till post-golem and I definitely land Shadowflame knife has a really good weapon

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Again to answer this question, you don't really cut much. The debuff build can handle invasions pretty well so solar eclipse and the moons it can do decent against too, especially the ground enemies.

So, would you personally categorize this build as "fun" or "efficient"?

To be more specific, this is what I'm asking...

1. Do you believe that the Range Bonus of Shadowflame Knives is competitive to just "normal" upgrading [i.e. Tridents/ Spears]?
2. Also, do you notice any other benefits to using such a specialized build over other "straight forward" set-ups?

 

[Heath04🌳]

Do you believe that the Range Bonus of Shadowflame Knives is competitive to just "normal" upgrading [i.e. Tridents/ Spears]?

I believe that premech it is a viable option and is better than titanium spear, as you progress through the game you will find better weapons of course

Also, do you notice any other benefits to using such a specialized build over other "straight forward" set-ups?

The benefit of a debuff build is you can focus more on dodging more, the build is super safe and offers great dps even if you're not focused on the boss. For ground enemies it just destroys them easily enough to be considered a war crime. It's genuinely the safest option for melee premech that isn't requiring luck as if you're lucky you'd get sergeant united.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I believe that premech it is a viable option and is better than titanium spear, as you progress through the game you will find better weapons of course

Here's how my brain works... considering the idea that Shadowflame Knives are superior to Titanium Spear, do you think it'd be possible to find a set-up, where Queen Slime is your first target, allowing you to entirely skip Titanium and it's Equivalent, and simply use Crystal Assassin's Set instead, or do you consider Frost Armor to be essential to the Build?

I ask because...

1. at pre-Titanium, it makes sense to me to just go "full" if it's possible, choosing to not is an interesting choice.
2. Titanium and it's Equivalent are required to craft Frost Armor, so pre-Titanium gear wasn't entirely skipped here...
3. ...actually, Frost Armor is Titanium Tier with more steps, which includes a rare World Event +rare resources.
4. The only time investment save I can assume, would be the Goblin Army, since it can be triggered at will.
5. I have to assume that both Titanium Spear and Shadowflame Knife both guranteed a downed Destroyer.
6. Why not supplement Crystal Assassin's Set for Frost Armor, cosidering the different sources mentioned, you should get an overall higher DPS, with the luxury of mobility [since it's a safety over power Build]?
7. This would allow you to completely skip unnecessary steps, and possibly go directly after the Huntress/ Red Hood Set, which I believe is one of the best DoT/ DeBuff Builds in the game.

This is me assuming the idea that you aren't married to Shadowflame Knives or Melee Class, considering the number of damage sources mentioned earlier.

The benefit of a debuff build is you can focus more on dodging more, the build is super safe and offers great dps even if you're not focused on the boss. For ground enemies it just destroys them easily enough to be considered a war crime. It's genuinely the safest option for melee premech that isn't requiring luck as if you're lucky you'd get sergeant united.

Yeah see, at this point I feel like you should just lean into the idea of having Sentries that also inflict DeBuffs. That way you can add either Ichor or Oiled to your list of status effects, just by swapping Guns and/ or Sentries.

 

[Heath04🌳]

Here's how my brain works... considering the idea that Shadowflame Knives are superior to Titanium Spear, do you think it'd be possible to find a set-up, where Queen Slime is your first target, allowing you to entirely skip Titanium and it's Equivalent, and simply use Crystal Assassin's Set instead, or do you consider Frost Armor to be essential to the Build?

I ask because...

1. at pre-Titanium, it makes sense to me to just go "full" if it's possible, choosing to not is an interesting choice.
2. Titanium and it's Equivalent are required to craft Frost Armor, so pre-Titanium gear wasn't entirely skipped here...
3. ...actually, Frost Armor is Titanium Tier with more steps, which includes a rare World Event +rare resources.
4. The only time investment save I can assume, would be the Goblin Army, since it can be triggered at will.
5. I have to assume that both Titanium Spear and Shadowflame Knife both guranteed a downed Destroyer.
6. Why not supplement Crystal Assassin's Set for Frost Armor, cosidering the different sources mentioned, you should get an overall higher DPS, with the luxury of mobility [since it's a safety over power Build]?
7. This would allow you to completely skip unnecessary steps, and possibly go directly after the Huntress/ Red Hood Set, which I believe is one of the best DoT/ DeBuff Builds in the game.

This is me assuming the idea that you aren't married to Shadowflame Knives or Melee Class, considering the number of damage sources mentioned earlier.


Yeah see, at this point I feel like you should just lean into the idea of having Sentries that also inflict DeBuffs. That way you can add either Ichor or Oiled to your list of status effects, just by swapping Guns and/ or Sentries.

You could skip the frost armor mainly if you have the venom already, the buff to venom really makes the build shine. Shadowflame knives bounce can be extremely useful for destroyer and you can put less investment into frost armor meaning you can go for something with more raw damage like mythril. Crystal assassin is nice but it's not my preferred pick since I don't always use a dash either. Huntress is a good set indeed, the oiled debuff is extremely good and pairing magma stone to the build makes it viable for debuff