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PC Summoner Discussion - What could be done to make it more viable?

did i do a good :)


  • Total voters
    19

Dragrath

Duke Fishron
I suppose, though actually making it deep enough into the jungle to find a suitable lake in the first place is what I was concerned about. It's very difficult to do when everything spams in your face and two shots you, I guess I just need to wait for living inside the jungle instead of doing that from the beginning. :D

Yes, but why wouldn't you use Crimson armor in prehardmode? I actually have been going around telling people about the fact that you basically get both evils in hardmode, but you really don't benefit from the Cuffs enough in prehardmode to spurn the sheer ridiculousness of the Brain of Confusion and Crimson Armor.
Points taken yeah getting down there is the hard part though I find that in Terraria as long as you are aware of your surroundings i.e. good enough at spotting traps/maneaters it is easier to survive in the Jungle if you keep moving due to how enemy spawn mechanics work in general. Still a huge risk but it is possible to set up a fairly safe fishing hole as long as world gen didn't screw with you.

Yeah Crimson Armor is a bit of a problem given its potency being so good relative to other armors, sadly I have to admit you are right that Crimson is inherently better in nearly every single way apparently because Red says so. The only reasons behind why I honestly prefer corruption are because of aesthetic reasons (Ebonstone brick is one of my favorite brick types, and ebonwood actually fits the biome unlike the seemingly strange shadewood that appears to have little connection to crimson whatsoever. The only practical gain for me is the Scourge of the Corrupter which comes at the cost of life stealing vampire knives but those seem to be a crutch more than anything.

The panic Necklace is pretty crap though literally no potential tinkerwise...
 
i really only have 2 main issues with the summoner class, which is pre hardmode and whips.

the pre-hardmode is still kind of bad because you have one armor set locked behind queen bee. i guess you could argue that ranger also has only one pre hardmode armor set but the thing is that if you're playing a ranger you can get by with a crimson armor set until you beat skeletron. with summoner you need summoner potions and to somehow get a bewitching table to actually get minions before queen bee. no other class needs to do extra stuff like that to be viable early game. the most simple solution is to add a pre boss summoner set. maybe you could get it by fishing in the ocean. something like the sunken set. pants would give you 1 extra minion, the rest of the armor pieces would increase minion damage. I don't know, but at least it's something.

the second problem is whips, which basically say :red: you to your summon's ai. with whips constantly changing aggro if you're fighting a group of enemies, they're pretty bad for your summons. plus they're essentially melee weapon doing summon damage. summoners don't have a lot of defense so its not even worth it to whip enemies. check out this thread if you want to read more about it, but my solution is to add a different secondary weapons to summoners: canes. they would change the aggro to the enemy you click, and different canes would make your minions inflict different debuffs (bleeding, fire, frostburn, poison, ichor) that would last for 20 seconds, with a 10 second cooldown for the debuffs.
 

22144418

Terrarian
General:
Summons should never have any iFrame issues. You should always benefit for having more summons, as it should never be the case where one overshadows another's value.
The behavior must improve. There are several things that can go wrong: summons going out of aggro range automatically and end up losing target (not even a despawn or anything), the inability to assign target priority aside from focus (which narrows out crowd control for summons drastically), small landscape mishaps or simply being too slow renders them completely useless against fights (refer to gameraider's fight against eye of cthulu as summoner. it's ridiculous.)
the requirement of the whip makes summoners super weak all around. on paper it is ideal, but it kills crowd control by a landslide. summons don't benefit nearly as much. whips that are supposed to alleviate that are not strong enough for such a utility.
summons have literally nothing for enemies in blocks; this makes worm enemies incredibly tiresome. they don't know who to attack, stacking the behavior issues above, and the only way around it is with whips, whicn don't have good dps.
sentries should last longer and be more manageable. right now, their purpose is rather weak, if not talking about the etherian event.
in addition to having summoner quantity at one's disposal, being able to have a variety of different summons from different staffs would make summoner class so much more colorful. a lot of times you'll see a lot of the same one summon, rather than a variety of different creatures that benefit from each other... a classic idea would be to combine hornet staff and imp staff for debuff stacking (though that is too weak), or having a high knockback minion work with a sniper summon.
whips should be affected by the imbuing station. it's just asking for it.
Progression:
Similar to mage class, I don't think that summoner class should be able to have a weapon purely by luck at the very start. In this case, it's the finch staff. There's no way you're using that weapon for real; it doesn't deal enough damage nor does it have a half decent ai. otherwise they will have to buff it and make it less likely to overshoot (same applies to raven). They should also make finch staffs renewable. I would suggest a crafting method related to catching birds and using a living loom. you can make a few more staff ideas here as well, for starter variety.
ancient summoner armor in the same fashion as ancient colbalt, ancient necro, or ancient shadow armor (there should be ancient crimson armor or something for crimson worlds) would be really good for summoner; they don't have some sort of armor like that.
the firecracker sounds like a really good shadow chest item. I don't know what they thought about it dropping from the wall of flesh, but that makes the whip stand out too much; the rest of the drops aside from the emblems and expert/master drops are steampunk themed. additionally, there is no reasonable method to deal with the wall, due to the swarms of hungry and the need to distance due to wall speed and eye lasers. this and plantera really shows the crappy nature of the ai. summoner needs to be able to deal with these situations.
Blood moon enemies should be twice as weak. more often than not, they are too fleshy for their own good to the point where it's absolutely not worth fighting it. Even in expert mode, the numbers are just outrageous.
pirate staff is useless. an idea to make it better is to have different kinds of pirates coming out of it; every 4th summon a captain comes out instead, every 3rd of 4 summons makes a deadeye, etc.
More summons right before plantera. a chlorophyte staff summoning weapon makes the ore useful for summoners, and could be designed to get around the swarm plantera makes, whicn no other summon can really deal with without being too strong for the stage.
A whip in the frost moon?

I missed out a bunch of ideas and reasons, but I cannot seem to remember them or write it down in a clear shape and reason. but, as of right now, there are many empty places in the game, but most of these are overshadowed by other things that are not really all that good either (frozen and desert chest kind of ruining potential reason to see the biomes in hardmode, a variety of whips and summons available at a said moment that would be too weird to just add another weapon for progression's sake (as it would overshadow others or be overlapped)). but those specific items are not important. it is the weighting throughout the game that is a problem, and the lack of choices to choose better things. additionally, the class itself has become linearized, and so it succumbs to a variety of situations that other classes can deal with easily. if you fight against queen slime, wall of flesh or plantera with the way it is right now, the problems couldn't be any clearer. you even fight the wall of flesh like a mage using crimson rods, since the aggro range of summons just won't cut it.
 

SkyanUltra

Terrarian
alright, im coming back after the new 1.4.1 update and i've turned over a lot of my ideas before. lemme quick go over them.

Minions need more fixes.
One fix I have been DYING to have be added in is the ability for all minions to have local immunity frames, a feature that modders do with minions already. All it would do is make piercing projectiles deal damage and have to wait for their own immunity frames rather than the global I-Frame counter. This means minions like the Slimes would be able to attack more often and not be absolutely screwed over by the global immunity frames making them a lot worse than they should be. To counter how broken this could be, some minions (mainly around hardmode) would be slightly nerfed in order to make them only a bit better rather than by thousands of times over.

Whips need a replacement.
While yes, they do add a lot to the gameplay of summoner, they don't fit the theme well. sure, you could argue that it fits because of one thing that Final Fantasy does with their summoners, but whips are too out of place to feel like something that really fits well. My idea? Squires.

Inspired by a mod that I currently sprite for, Amulet of Many Minions, (Go check it out, when you get the chance. its a lot of fun and I put a ton of effort into the sprites!) they would act as a controllable minion. They have a humanoid appearance and would have a variety of weapons. For example: a Mushroom squire, the first one you can get, which swings a little forest themed hammush thats been shrunken down a bit. These squires could have the tag damage as well to be applied whenever they hit an enemy, OR could be replaced with SUPPORTIVE SQUIRES. The idea is while you have one out, your minions gain a passive buff, such as a flat summon damage buff granting you an extra small minion for every 1-2 or so normal summons you have out.

Along with this, these squires could have their own armor sets and accessories, such as a drop from Skeletron like a little Skull Charm that summons a little spinning skull that will provide a buff to your squires while also dealing extra summon damage whenever their eyes flash, indicating a different buff to the squire, such as to their attack damage or speed and range of movement.

Armor
As it stands, the new armor in 1.4.1 helps a LOT. But, of course, with the changes i've recommended to the whip replacement, they will need some changes. So, what should be done?

First, non-Squire related changes: a new hat/hood for the Flinx Fur armor. Not only would this provide extra summon damage, it'd provide a set bonus that could do something like summon a little helpful snow flake minion like from the Cool Whip (seeing as it would be replaced, it'd be nice to re-use some of the effect from the whips) or it could grant a unique set bonus that grants your minions a special ability to sometimes summon little snowflakes around them that would slowly fall and deal some extra damage to their enemy. Along with that, replacing the whip bonus from obsidian armor would be a good idea. Maybe it could be a Squire related set bonus, but i'd personally just give it an interesting minion damage effect like the explosions that the Firecracker gives.

Next, i'd make armor sets focused around squires. Not too many, mind you: but enough to give squires a bit more love even if they won't have too many options (i'd be looking for around 20-30 to be in the game.) Some armor ideas are a Steampunk set, made with Cogs and perhaps Hallowed bars or some other sort of material, and for another idea, how about a pre-HM set based on the Granite biome, which is made from some kind of Granite-based material that can be obtained some time after Eater/Brain or Skeletron? The effects for squires could be buffs to their supportive abilities, maybe buffs to how they attack or how they mix with minions. The main draw back is that these sets would have less minion slots than normal provided, but provide a good bit more damage, like the Obsidian set does with Whips.

Accessories
This is honestly the biggest issue with the class, ignoring the Whips. The class only has a few select accessories, hell they only have ONE in pre-HM and its not even a new one, its just a hardmode accessory made obtainable early-game. I'd recommend adding more unique summon based accessories, like maybe a little Slime Pendant obtained from a new slime in the dungeons, which could have skulls and bones in them and drop the new accessory maybe around 5% of the time. It would give you a little summoned slime with a cutesy little wisp-skull in it that would attack enemies for you, along with granting extra minion damage of about ~10%. And for really early into the game, you could have a little worm in a can necklace or something that summons some type of minion upon killing an enemy.

Summoner also doesn't have an Avengers Emblem combo at all, which I think every class should probably have, even if Magic's is really scuffed and weak. I'm not sure exactly what it could do, but I was thinking it could be for something like a little desert based summon that would slowly build up little forbidden fragment colored hieroglyphs and would attack upon an enemy entering the screen, and of course it would scale with minion damage.



Anyways, that was everything I had in mind. It's pretty obvious these changes won't all be made, considering that 1.4.1 is probably the final content update for a very long time, if not forever. Maybe i'll get these added in Amulet of Many Minions with the dev, though. Again, check out the mod. It's really cool and i've been helping out with the spriting. As an example, here are a lot of the sprites i've gotten planned to be added. Some are already in, others are planned to be added in the next update. Sorry if this maybe a bit TOO much self-promoting, but i'm really proud of these sprites and the ideas the mod dev has come up with are really good and it's been a blast not only spriting for the mod but also just playing it. Check it out when you have the chance!
aomm sprites.png
 

J Bame

Terrarian
One fix I have been DYING to have be added in is the ability for all minions to have local immunity frames, a feature that modders do with minions already. All it would do is make piercing projectiles deal damage and have to wait for their own immunity frames rather than the global I-Frame counter. This means minions like the Slimes would be able to attack more often and not be absolutely screwed over by the global immunity frames making them a lot worse than they should be. To counter how broken this could be, some minions (mainly around hardmode) would be slightly nerfed in order to make them only a bit better rather than by thousands of times over.

Agreed, some minions such as Optic Staff, Imp Staff and Deadly Sphere are desperately asking for the LocalImmunity.

While yes, they do add a lot to the gameplay of summoner, they don't fit the theme well. sure, you could argue that it fits because of one thing that Final Fantasy does with their summoners, but whips are too out of place to feel like something that really fits well. My idea? Squires.

Inspired by a mod that I currently sprite for, Amulet of Many Minions, (Go check it out, when you get the chance. its a lot of fun and I put a ton of effort into the sprites!) they would act as a controllable minion. They have a humanoid appearance and would have a variety of weapons. For example: a Mushroom squire, the first one you can get, which swings a little forest themed hammush thats been shrunken down a bit. These squires could have the tag damage as well to be applied whenever they hit an enemy, OR could be replaced with SUPPORTIVE SQUIRES. The idea is while you have one out, your minions gain a passive buff, such as a flat summon damage buff granting you an extra small minion for every 1-2 or so normal summons you have out.

Since 1.4.1 Whips do their job just fine as a weapon for summoners. They are strong, work with minions and due to their short-range, they still encourage summoners to use weapons from other classes. I don't understand what "theme" they don't fit into, and it doesn't matter since they are fun and work well already.

The idea of a controllable summon will invalidate using other weapons as a summoner, which I'm pretty sure is what they tried to avoid when designing Whips.

Along with that, replacing the whip bonus from obsidian armor would be a good idea. Maybe it could be a Squire related set bonus, but i'd personally just give it an interesting minion damage effect like the explosions that the Firecracker gives.

Obsidian Armor's set bonus is what makes it a unique set and not a redundant clone of Bee Armor. It's focused on making Whips your main source of damage, unlike Bee armor which buffs your minions and lets you use whatever else as a secondary.

Not every set bonus needs to have flashy effects to be good and interesting.

This is honestly the biggest issue with the class, ignoring the Whips. The class only has a few select accessories, hell they only have ONE in pre-HM and its not even a new one, its just a hardmode accessory made obtainable early-game. I'd recommend adding more unique summon based accessories, like maybe a little Slime Pendant obtained from a new slime in the dungeons, which could have skulls and bones in them and drop the new accessory maybe around 5% of the time. It would give you a little summoned slime with a cutesy little wisp-skull in it that would attack enemies for you, along with granting extra minion damage of about ~10%. And for really early into the game, you could have a little worm in a can necklace or something that summons some type of minion upon killing an enemy.

Just saying, there are a ton of accessories for all classes. Just because there aren't that many for summoner specifically doesn't mean that they don't have anything to use at all. Pygmy Necklace and Feral Claws are super solid items for them in Pre-Hardmode already.

Not to say that new accessories would be a bad thing, but rather that it isn't a major issue that there aren't too many of them.

Summoner also doesn't have an Avengers Emblem combo at all, which I think every class should probably have, even if Magic's is really scuffed and weak. I'm not sure exactly what it could do, but I was thinking it could be for something like a little desert based summon that would slowly build up little forbidden fragment colored hieroglyphs and would attack upon an enemy entering the screen, and of course it would scale with minion damage.

The most fitting thing would be a Pygmy Necklace + Avenger Emblem combo, the only problem being that it'd be way too similar to the Necromantic Scroll.

Celestial Emblem is one of the best magic accessories in the game, by the way. don't underestimate the Celestial Magnet.


Your sprites look pretty good, good luck with the mod!
 

SkyanUltra

Terrarian
Since 1.4.1 Whips do their job just fine as a weapon for summoners. They are strong, work with minions and due to their short-range, they still encourage summoners to use weapons from other classes. I don't understand what "theme" they don't fit into, and it doesn't matter since they are fun and work well already.

The idea of a controllable summon will invalidate using other weapons as a summoner, which I'm pretty sure is what they tried to avoid when designing Whips.

Obsidian Armor's set bonus is what makes it a unique set and not a redundant clone of Bee Armor. It's focused on making Whips your main source of damage, unlike Bee armor which buffs your minions and lets you use whatever else as a secondary.

Not every set bonus needs to have flashy effects to be good and interesting.

Just saying, there are a ton of accessories for all classes. Just because there aren't that many for summoner specifically doesn't mean that they don't have anything to use at all. Pygmy Necklace and Feral Claws are super solid items for them in Pre-Hardmode already.

Not to say that new accessories would be a bad thing, but rather that it isn't a major issue that there aren't too many of them.

The most fitting thing would be a Pygmy Necklace + Avenger Emblem combo, the only problem being that it'd be way too similar to the Necromantic Scroll.

Celestial Emblem is one of the best magic accessories in the game, by the way. don't underestimate the Celestial Magnet.



Your sprites look pretty good, good luck with the mod!
1. I'm suggesting they would be replaced. I know it won't happen now, and yes they are strong, but the issue is the lack of a fitting theme with summoner. The controllable minions would still have limited range like the whips, they would just fit the theme of the class more being a summon, rather than a physical weapon that a class like Melee would be using.
2. You have a fair point for Obsidian armor, but the reason i wish for the sets to have flashier set bonuses is simply because summoner has none. all of their armor sets, other than Stardust, just provide additional damage/minions. I'd like to see more interesting set bonuses focused on improving the minions with an interesting set bonus rather than just damage, as it could be utilized to make certain sets better with certain minion types.
3. I get that those specific accessories are solid, but those are the only two. Just in general i'd like to see more accessories in pre-HM for specific classes, though. More interesting types would be great.
4. Again, i'd like to mention that the addition of some new accessories, plus the avengers emblem could make for an interesting combo. Something rather than just +1 minion and 15% minion damage.
5. Magic doesn't even really have unique accessories. All it gives anyways is 15% magic damage and extra mana star grabbing distance, there's better out there for other classes, in my opinion. Things like the Fire Gauntlet, or the Putrid Scent Ranged combos are better IMO. But honestly, I feel that magic and summoner with some sort of long crafting tree accessory would be nice.

Thank you also for the compliment, i've been working as hard as I can to improve my artistic abilities recently so i'm glad you like them.
 

Omega Derpling

Plantera
1. I'm suggesting they would be replaced. I know it won't happen now, and yes they are strong, but the issue is the lack of a fitting theme with summoner. The controllable minions would still have limited range like the whips, they would just fit the theme of the class more being a summon, rather than a physical weapon that a class like Melee would be using.
It actually does work well thematically in my opinion. Whips were originally intended not to be weapons, but to help out people who were handling animals to try and get them under control.
 

SkyanUltra

Terrarian
It actually does work well thematically in my opinion. Whips were originally intended not to be weapons, but to help out people who were handling animals to try and get them under control.
In my opinion, it doesn't. At least gameplay wise, in my opinion. I find the idea of Squires to be more fitting as not only thematically do they act as a summon that is loyal and follows their command, it also grants a lot more interesting types of squires, as I mentioned with the different weaponry they could use and their different roles they could serve, whether or not that's as an offensive attack option or a supportive option to boost your already existing minions/sentries.
 
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