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PC Summoner Discussion - What could be done to make it more viable?

did i do a good :)


  • Total voters
    18
What's funny is that... I didn't even mention summoner. I said jungle fishing is hard in early game.
I mean, there's a LOT of stuff in the game that'll be a skill check. It's healthy balance IMHO. Part of the fun is finding avenues around the difficulty spikes. After reading what you typed below, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider Jungle Fishing a skill check, but... ok?

Exactly. But that doesn't mean the classes are balanced with each other in early-game. I can just craft 100 torches, complete the torch god a few times...One of which drifts around enemies instead of hitting them most of the time, and when they do hit they often knock enemies into you and make you take cheap hits. The other just has it's performance fail miserably against everything that can fly (every boss except king slime and eater of worlds, who are both incredibly optional and if you know what you're doing you can't even fight one of them most of the time.)
Most of the stuff you mentioned is heavy Meta-gaming & insider knowledge at it's finest; cool, a person who's approaching speed-runner territory deserves to blast through the game, skipping to the good stuff. Expecting the developers to gate that stuff off, just because, is unreasonable. Every game has it's Meta-gaming loopholes, that's just how it is. I could give you the same comprehensive guide to blast through Dark souls, Skyrim, or [insert game here]. Natural progression should be reasonably balanced, Meta-gaming doesn't care about balance, so this entire dissertation is confusing to me. 😒🍹
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Most of the stuff you mentioned is heavy Meta-gaming & insider knowledge at it's finest; cool, a person who's approaching speed-runner territory deserves to blast through the game, skipping to the good stuff. Expecting the developers to gate that stuff off, just because, is unreasonable. Every game has it's Meta-gaming loopholes, that's just how it is. I could give you the same comprehensive guide to blast through Dark souls, Skyrim, or [insert game here]. Natural progression should be reasonably balanced, Meta-gaming doesn't care about balance, so this entire dissertation is confusing to me. 😒🍹
I wasn't saying the devs should patch these methods, I was saying:
Summoner isn't spoiled and isn't strong in earlygame.
and I was giving examples of a class which is both far more spoiled and far stronger. Your point seems to be that summoner is ridiculously strong in prehardmode and doesn't deserve or need new content, when it, in fact, does. Summoner isn't spoiled, Summoner isn't strong until hardmode.

And also, I have never speedrun this game and haven't ever bothered to watch a full speedrun besides Ningishu's, who didn't even use any of the methods I stated at the time her speedruns were currently the world record. (in fact, she used Dynamite and no armor whatsoever for the wall of flesh, never even bothering with the Minishark, Gold Bow, Beenades, or anything of the like. Considering the feeling of apallment that I feel when hearing that's even possible, I don't consider myself nearing speedrunner territory.)
 
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...and I was giving examples of a class which is both far more spoiled and far stronger. Your point seems to be that summoner is ridiculously strong in prehardmode and doesn't deserve or need new content, when it, in fact, does. Summoner isn't spoiled, Summoner isn't strong until hardmode.
Summoner is powerful as far as normal progression is concerned, I'm saying it doesn't need more content, because it already has plenty of new content, in addition to all the other newer stuff every other Class got. A Summoner can use a Minishark too, & a Star Cannon & Jester's Arrows & anything else it wants. There's nothing stopping a Summoner from using a gun.

And also, I have never speedrun this game...or anything of the like. Considering the feeling of apallment that I feel when hearing that's even possible, I don't consider myself nearing speedrunner territory.)
Well, speed-running is Meta-gaming at it's finest, learning how to bypass all the skill checks, using exploits, glitches, oversights & insider knowledge to your advantage, over & over again until you perfect it. Meta-gaming isn't normal progression, even if we aren't talking about speed-running. Most of the information I see people posting here is borrowed, meaning, someone with a Meta-gaming mindset provided that information & the average player wouldn't know about it had they not done so.

Bee Armor (+ Hive Pack), Hornet Staff & Beenades + BeesKnees carried me all the way into Early-Hardmode, plus fishing. It was even powerful enough to spam Early Old One's Army so I could snag my first Sentry Summon. With just this set-up alone, I was able to obtain a Cross Necklace & Star Cloak, by simply throwing bee grenades over, & over, & over again. If the argument is that other Classes are stronger, according to Meta-gaming, fine, but if the argument is that Summoner is weak, that's horse s**t. 😒🍹
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Summoner is powerful as far as normal progression is concerned, I'm saying it doesn't need more content, because it already has plenty of new content, in addition to all the other newer stuff every other Class got. A Summoner can use a Minishark too, & a Star Cannon & Jester's Arrows & anything else it wants. There's nothing stopping a Summoner from using a gun.
I think you're missing my point. I want summoner to be fun and have more variety. I want more content from it, and I want more reasons to actually go after it so that it isn't just a waste of time. It isn't wrong to ask for more content where it's lacking, right? Melee got 10, 10 new prehardmode weapons in 1.4. Ranger got two new prehardmode weapons, one is pre-boss and does 96 damage per click. Summoner falls flat compared to both of these with 4 mediocre new weapons, and none of them are even close. It's not even metagaming, it's the fact that even if you aren't doing a "potential test" your fights go noticably slower than if you just hadn't bothered with them. You can use weapons from other classes alongside minions, but that does not change the fact that choice is very limited and outright pathetic on most occasions for prehardmode summoner, forcing you to use Ranged weapons because they're the only class you can really steal weapons from without wearing the gear for it.
Well, speed-running is Meta-gaming at it's finest, learning how to bypass all the skill checks, using exploits, glitches, oversights & insider knowledge to your advantage, over & over again until you perfect it. Meta-gaming isn't normal progression, even if we aren't talking about speed-running. Most of the information I see people posting here is borrowed, meaning, someone with a Meta-gaming mindset provided that information & the average player wouldn't know about it had they not done so.
I'm not a speedrunner. I literally just said that.
And also, I have never speedrun this game and haven't ever bothered to watch a full speedrun besides Ningishu's, who didn't even use any of the methods I stated at the time her speedruns were currently the world record. (in fact, she used Dynamite and no armor whatsoever for the wall of flesh, never even bothering with the Minishark, Gold Bow, Beenades, or anything of the like. Considering the feeling of apallment that I feel when hearing that's even possible, I don't consider myself nearing speedrunner territory.)
Bee Armor (+ Hive Pack), Hornet Staff & Beenades + BeesKnees carried me all the way into Early-Hardmode, plus fishing. It was even powerful enough to spam Early Old One's Army so I could snag my first Sentry Summon. With just this set-up alone, I was able to obtain a Cross Necklace & Star Cloak, by simply throwing bee grenades over, & over, & over again. If the argument is that other Classes are stronger, according to Meta-gaming, fine, but if the argument is that Summoner is weak, that's horse s**t. 😒🍹
If you were fighting Old One's Army before mechs, it was only the tier 1 fight, which you're meant to fight before killing queen bee. Also, Beenades are so ridiculous that when I used them to try and solo a boss (brain of cthulhu) in expert multiplayer scaled up to 6 people, the health bar went down so fast that my teammates were questioning whether they should ban beenades from the playthrough entirely (beenades are meant for post-brain, yes, but you should not be able to solo a boss scaled up to 6 people in expert multiplayer with them in under a minute, and I was just spamclicking)

You confuse me with a "meta-gamer" when I've just tried several weapons and generally know what works and what doesn't. I don't do complex tests, I just notice how often the weapon in question is dealing damage and how quickly the target dies.
 
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Drachasor

Terrarian
The Vampire Frogs got me thinking that summons need secondary abilities. Like the frogs and some other should steal life from enemies and give it to you. Others could up you defense or reduce enemy attack or any number of other debuffs or buffs. Maybe some could have a chance to block ranged attacked or take a hit for you -- and maybe some would require resummoning after performing a special act.

I think this would do a lot to make the summoner more distinct from other classes and be thematically appropriate. And it could be used to adjust summoner power and encourage the use of multiple types of summons at once.
 
@Derpling Ω , well, that's fair. I see Summoner a lil' differently then most, because I learned the game on my own terms, with no influence from anyone. I understood that Summoner was a side-Class without anyone telling me; even when people were trying to claim it wasn't. An organic play-through of this game will tell you a lot, so even though I disagree with you, I'm not disagreeable enough to say your opinion isn't valid, it is.

On the other hand, allow me to put you in my head space. These are some reasons I think Summoner needs to be left alone & is fine as is.
  • Early-Game is pretty open, you can summon Minions while wearing Meteor Armor w/ Space Gun, which is arguably the best early Armor Set for some.
  • Finch Staff & V.Frog Staff can be swapped around, mixed & alternated, depending on the situation, covering both high & low ground.
  • If you know about the Class & wanna invest, as you didn't find it by accident, increasing your Minion count isn't that hard to do.
  • If I'm not mistaken, with the Bee Armor, you have the potential to posses up to five (5) total Minions, pre-Hardmode.
  • In addition, you'll have access to a Sentry as well, your choice of four (4), by passing a simple skill check.
In my opinion, Hornet Staff is a direct upgrade to Finch, but V.Frog Staff stays relevant, all the way up until Early-Hardmode. So, that's two (2) different Minions to choose from, swap around or main, plus a choice of one (1) Sentry & any other weapon you'd like (even Whips); it gets even crazier once Hardmode starts & you kill all the Mechs.

Now Summoner starts breaking up into sub-Classes (which are all far from Purist):
Squire SummonerMelee Class items open up for you, including all the newer ones.
Monk SummonerUnknown???
Huntress SummonerRanger Class items open up for you, including all the newer ones.
Apprentice SummonerSorcerer Class items open up for you, again, this includes the new stuff too.

Even though this arguably doesn't add to gameplay, you can even dye your Minions. If that's not variety, I don't know what is.
 

Tarluk

Terrarian
But if you don't really go fishing all that much (a lot of players avoid it entirely, and not for unjustified reason since it can be a boring mechanic) or you have bad luck with either getting Blood Moons to spawn, getting the enemies which drop the vampire frogs to spawn at all, or getting those enemies to actually drop the vampire frogs, then you essentially get nothing outside of a fairly situational Sentry from the first 5-10 minutes of the game all the way until a Queen Bee kill when you also can get the Bee armor and those summoning potions. Compare that to every other class which has plenty of upgrades between the moment they spawn in to the moment they defeat Queen Bee:

  • Melee: They go from their basic Copper Shortsword to a Wooden Sword fairly early on, and from there can obtain a variety of weapons on the surface and underground from an Ore Sword to a Yo-yo to a Mace to a Spear to even a projectile sword like the Enchanted Sword, Terragrim, Ice Blade or Starfury. After killing the Eye of Cthulhu and exploring the Corruption, you can upgrade your Sword, Yo-yo and/or Mace to Demonite tier. Kill the Eater of Worlds to get your hands on Shadow Armor, and you'll be more than ready to take on the Jungle to get the Bee Keeper or Amazon...or, alternatively, the Dungeon instead to get the Muramasa and Blue Moon.
  • Ranged: They get a Wooden Bow fairly early on (and if they're crafty, they can craft Archery Potions right at the start with no need to fish at all) and they'll steadily upgrade that bow with various ores from Iron to Gold to Demonite, until they get to the Corruption where they can obtain the Musket. From there, it gets a little bit more interesting; if they're eager to fish, they can get the discount Daedalus from a Blood Moon, or if fishing isn't in their interest, they can talk to the Arms Dealer or the Traveling Merchant instead to get their hands on a different gun: either the Minishark (which is one of the coolest pre-hardmode weapons out there) or the Revolver (for a much more practical upgrade). Whatever choice it might be, it'll be more than good enough to go up against either the Queen Bee/Jungle to get the Bee Bow or the Boomstick, or good enough to go up against the Dungeon for a Handgun. And when you factor in arrow types and throwing weapons on top of that, Ranged progression early on becomes even more fleshed out.
  • Magic: It's somewhat more limited than the other two classes, but still more than doable. Get a Wand of Sparking out of a chest, and they can go mining underground for an ore staff (though for much longer than other classes due to the stlll-troubling gem requirement) or if they're somewhat more daring you can venture into the Underground Desert for a Thunder Zapper. There are some more options after the Eater of Worlds, though: the Vilethorn will suffice until later on, when they can get the infamous Meteor Armor and the Space Gun combo. From there, it's either dungeon time where they get the Magic Missile, Water Bolt or, if they're lucky, the Book of Skulls, or jungle time where you can get the Bee Gun and Jungle Armor. Or neither, since Meteor Armor/Space Gun is so good it'll last until hardmode.
And then there's Summoner. They get one staff at the very start of the game which they'll never be able to upgrade from all the way until Queen Bee unless they either get extraordinary lucky when killing a slime or get merely decently lucky enough with Blood Moons and fishing (being the only class which absolutely has to fish in order to reduce their progression gap). Summoning Potions would have been a godsend if they weren't locked behind the Underground Jungle, and by the time you get the opportunity to fish them up through natural gameplay you'll already have killed Queen Bee, and with the Bee armor the effect goes from outright doubling your summon damage output to being more comparable to the Archery Potions which you could've gotten on your first night easily. Even the Sentry staff that the OOA event can give you will only be used so often since it's decently situational to use.

Seriously, even if you don't intend on playing pure summoner at all or at least until hardmode, it'd be nice to see a few more summoner weapons sprinkled into pre-hardmode. Hell, it'd be nice to see some variety in general for summoner weapons, since the only two types out there are the swarms of minions, the one big minion you can upgrade with successive casts, and the sentries (I'll give the Lightning Aura some credit for being different from the other sentries, though). It'd be nice to see magic weapons like the Crimson/Nimbus Rod or the Clinger Staff perhaps dealing summon damage instead of (or even in addition to) magic damage since they fit the summoner role pretty well while also making the class a little bit more active due to needing more active upkeep to maintain. Maybe Bees (from Bee Keeper, The Bee's Knees, Beenades, etc.) could also deal summon damage and be changed a little bit, dealing less damage per hit but sticking around for longer before they disappear entirely.

And I don't mind the idea of the Summoner class as a whole embracing a more hybrid nature with having subclasses of Squire, Huntress and Apprentice respectively rather than encouraging the purist route as the main way to play, but there needs to be proper weapons that are also designed with those subclasses in mind, like how the Nimbus Rod and Bee weapons could be changed to do so. Whips should be redesigned to be actually viable at melee combat (even if not as optimal as the mainstream choices) while still having those special bonuses for those who are also actively using summon weapons.
 
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Drachasor

Terrarian
Seriously, even if you don't intend on playing pure summoner at all or at least until hardmode, it'd be nice to see a few more summoner weapons sprinkled into pre-hardmode. Hell, it'd be nice to see some variety in general for summoner weapons, since the only two types out there are the swarms of minions, the one big minion you can upgrade with successive casts, and the sentries (I'll give the Lightning Aura some credit for being different from the other sentries, though). It'd be nice to see magic weapons like the Crimson/Nimbus Rod or the Clinger Staff perhaps dealing summon damage instead of (or even in addition to) magic damage since they fit the summoner role pretty well while also making the class a little bit more active due to needing more active upkeep to maintain. Maybe Bees (from Bee Keeper, The Bee's Knees, Beenades, etc.) could also deal summon damage and be changed a little bit, dealing less damage per hit but sticking around for longer before they disappear entirely.

And I don't mind the idea of the Summoner class as a whole embracing a more hybrid nature with having subclasses of Squire, Huntress and Apprentice respectively rather than encouraging the purist route as the main way to play, but there needs to be proper weapons that are also designed with those subclasses in mind, like how the Nimbus Rod and Bee weapons could be changed to do so. Whips should be redesigned to be actually viable at melee combat (even if not as optimal as the mainstream choices) while still having those special bonuses for those who are also actively using summon weapons.
100% agree that there need to be more weapons other than whips, or just have summoners be hybrids could work for that too. I do feel like weapons like the bee gun and bee's knees should also be summoner friendly if not summoner weapons (same with beenade). They create little creatures. That's summoning. Honestly, I use them on my summoners for the thematics, but there should be more support. Maybe having them do damage that's tagged as also being summon damage. And we need more weapons like that.

Like I said above, I think summons themselves should have more special abilities to also distinguish them and encourage the use of several summons at once.
 

Drachasor

Terrarian
@Derpling Ω , well, that's fair. I see Summoner a lil' differently then most, because I learned the game on my own terms, with no influence from anyone. I understood that Summoner was a side-Class without anyone telling me; even when people were trying to claim it wasn't. An organic play-through of this game will tell you a lot, so even though I disagree with you, I'm not disagreeable enough to say your opinion isn't valid, it is.

On the other hand, allow me to put you in my head space. These are some reasons I think Summoner needs to be left alone & is fine as is.
  • Early-Game is pretty open, you can summon Minions while wearing Meteor Armor w/ Space Gun, which is arguably the best early Armor Set for some.
  • Finch Staff & V.Frog Staff can be swapped around, mixed & alternated, depending on the situation, covering both high & low ground.
  • If you know about the Class & wanna invest, as you didn't find it by accident, increasing your Minion count isn't that hard to do.
  • If I'm not mistaken, with the Bee Armor, you have the potential to posses up to five (5) total Minions, pre-Hardmode.
  • In addition, you'll have access to a Sentry as well, your choice of four (4), by passing a simple skill check.
In my opinion, Hornet Staff is a direct upgrade to Finch, but V.Frog Staff stays relevant, all the way up until Early-Hardmode. So, that's two (2) different Minions to choose from, swap around or main, plus a choice of one (1) Sentry & any other weapon you'd like (even Whips); it gets even crazier once Hardmode starts & you kill all the Mechs.

Now Summoner starts breaking up into sub-Classes (which are all far from Purist):
Squire SummonerMelee Class items open up for you, including all the newer ones.
Monk SummonerUnknown???
Huntress SummonerRanger Class items open up for you, including all the newer ones.
Apprentice SummonerSorcerer Class items open up for you, again, this includes the new stuff too.

Even though this arguably doesn't add to gameplay, you can even dye your Minions. If that's not variety, I don't know what is.
I think it is pretty clear that they've decided to make this a more significant class than it started out. It's just not quite there yet. Honestly, when we're talking about a few changes to drop rates or alternative means of getting some items, and a few changes to existing items, and a few more items, it's really not that much. There's still a big problem of having to depend on random and rare drops to continue playing the class a lot of times. I am not seeing what this adds to the game in terms of enjoyment, and that's really the bottom line. Those hybrid options aren't really properly supported yet.
 
But if you don't really go fishing all that much...but there needs to be proper weapons that are also designed with those subclasses in mind, like how the Nimbus Rod and Bee weapons could be changed to do so. Whips should be redesigned to be actually viable at melee combat (even if not as optimal as the mainstream choices) while still having those special bonuses for those who are also actively using summon weapons.
I mean, you do have a point. It's completely reasonable to not like the upgrading path to a Class in a game, it happens much more often than most people think. A game like Demon's Souls or even Dark Souls Series are great examples of that truth, but, if you love the Class enough, you endure, or you just pick something else. However, it's also true that every Class upgrade path has interesting moments, for example, if you wanna start being a Mage, you might get lucky & find a Water Bolt in the upper Dungeon. You might also find & kill Tim pretty fast, who's a slight skill check, & you might just find enough Gems & Webs to craft Silk on a Loom (and a Wand). You might even get lucky & the Traveling Merchant is selling the Hat & Gypsy Robes.

I personally enjoy the random nature of this game, which is likely why I enjoy Summoner more than most other Classes. I like the random World Gen, the random power boost moments, the random drops, the random World Evils, the choice of progression paths & the random items sold by the Traveling Merchant & Undead Merchant. Every new play-through is just that tad bit different, which keeps the game fresh & exciting for me, but everyone doesn't enjoy rolling dice & I can completely understand that.

I think it is pretty clear that they've decided to make this a more significant class than it started out...and that's really the bottom line. Those hybrid options aren't really properly supported yet.
It's certainly not lacking, but I wouldn't expect it to be in-your-face, that's not what Summoner is, or what the Developers wanted it to be. It's a Class you play because you love it, you don't play it to frustrate yourself or grind just to get the thing you want. Anyone going into Terraria, wanting to be a Summoner from the gate, HAS to know what they're getting into & must be willing to invest. I'm not suggesting that no one should critique the Class, but it does surprise me that a lot of people here don't understand the point of the Class & why it's upgrading path is awkward. It's a completely different way of approaching the game, which is the entire reason it exists.

The DD2 Summoners are Tower Defense builds through & through, you can't get much more direct than that! I'd argue they're some of the more fleshed-out Classes of them all, they even have built-in synergy, abilities that are only unique to them, that don't exist anywhere else in the game.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
if you love the Class enough, you endure, or you just pick something else.
You are posting in a thread about how the Summoner could be made better. Either the current Summoner is OK or it should be improved. Saying that you should just like it or lump it is kind of off-topic.

if you wanna start being a Mage, you might get lucky & find a Water Bolt in the upper Dungeon.
That's gone now; Water Bolt in 1.4 will not spawn above the Dungeon Guardian levels of the Dungeon. Now, it might spawn right at the point where the DG spawns, so maybe if you suicide-run your way through, you might get one into your inventory before dying.

You might also find & kill Tim pretty fast, who's a slight skill check, & you might just find enough Gems & Webs to craft Silk on a Loom (and a Wand). You might even get lucky & the Traveling Merchant is selling the Hat & Gypsy Robes.
That's not really luck; web and gems are just stuff you collect while exploring. Yes, it takes time, but exploration is the meat of the game; you're expected to take that time, and part of your reward is being able to craft mage gear. It's an alternative to the ore system for melee and ranged weapons, but one which is gained by doing the same things. That is, everybody gets enough stuff to do this just by playing the game.

And even Tim isn't entirely luck based; if you're wearing Gem robes and not wearing the hat, the game will automatically increase Tim's spawn rate.

By contrast, it could be hours of tedious grinding during Blood Moons before you get the one drop that lets you do summoning. And even then, how would you know to do that grinding if you didn't know it existed?

No, pre-Queen Bee summoner stuff is a lucky drop, a bonus, not a real part of progression.

It's certainly not lacking, but I wouldn't expect it to be in-your-face, that's not what Summoner is, or what the Developers wanted it to be.
I don't buy your notion of what the developers wanted the Summoner class to be. It's clear that it has evolved since the first summon weapon was added to the game. The progressive addition of more and more Summoner content seems to me clearly intended to make the Summoner class as "in-your-face" as the others.

The issue is why the pre-Queen Bee stuff is so RNG-based that you can't really rely on it without tedious grinding. And the reason is basically everything you've said, just turned around.

You're right that in the early game, class differentiation is not particularly strong. However, there is one fact about cross-class play that never changes: it always costs something.

If I'm using a sword, and I pick a bow as a secondary weapon, I cannot use the bow while I'm using the sword and vice-versa. I must switch from one to the other. And that cost is usually paid via another of the 10 quick-bar slots. And even though there are 10 of them, some are a lot more convenient to reach than others.

But here's the thing: that's not true for summoners early-game.

If I happen to get a staff, then with a Summoner Potion, I can summon a couple of things and still go back to my regular play. I don't have to spend any quick-bar slots because you don't need to summon things in the middle of combat. So I'm still 100% as effective at their playing melee/ranged/mage build as before. It's just that I'm getting some extra damage in by these summons.

I'm not a "summoner"; I'm a melee/ranged/mage with extra DPS.

Because of that, early-game summons cannot be powerful. This is why they're all terrible or RNG-based. If they were really good, then every class would just use them and the game would have to be re-balanced with the expectation that everyone uses them.

That's the fundamental problem with early game summons as a concept: it's too easy for other classes to use them, so they have to be nerfed into near-useless lest they unbalance the game.
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
  • Early-Game is pretty open, you can summon Minions while wearing Meteor Armor w/ Space Gun, which is arguably the best early Armor Set for some.
That's not early game. You can't get meteor armor before killing the Evil Bosses. Also Crimson Armor is actually broken and can last you well into hardmode no matter what class you're playing. It boosts damage to all classes, meaning that both your minions and primary weapons are boosted, and gives so much regeneration that you basically have a Shiny Stone while moving.
  • Finch Staff & V.Frog Staff can be swapped around, mixed & alternated, depending on the situation, covering both high & low ground.
Assuming you get either of them. The Finch Staff may only show up once per world, which may or may not have a living tree, may or may not have a chest inside said living tree, and may or may not even have the staff inside that chest. The Vampire Frog is a bit similar, every night may or may not be a blood moon, which gives you 9 minutes in which you may or may not fish up a miniboss, and that boss may or may not even drop the staff. My Master Mode Summoner playthrough didn't even generate with an empty living tree, let alone a chest inside it. I basically had to get Crimson Armor and go ranger for the entirety of pre-hardmode.

Do you see my problem with earlygame summoner? It's borderline impossible to get any minions most of the time. It's not a matter of personal preference, they just require so many layers of RNG to obtain that 90% of playthroughs you aren't even going to get either when they're relevant.
  • If you know about the Class & wanna invest, as you didn't find it by accident, increasing your Minion count isn't that hard to do.
but what minion are you even getting before the hornet staff in every single playthrough?
  • If I'm not mistaken, with the Bee Armor, you have the potential to posses up to five (5) total Minions, pre-Hardmode.
Which would be fine... if bee wax wasn't better used on beenades instead.
  • In addition, you'll have access to a Sentry as well, your choice of four (4), by passing a simple skill check.
Sentries aren't usually helpful. The Ballista is slow and doesn't lead it's shots, the Flameburst can't even hit above itself, the Lightning Aura's base damage is almost negligible in prehardmode (it completely ignores defense, but it has this annoying quirk where you have to divide it's listed damage by 3 to even see it's actual value) and the Explosive Trap just sits there and does nothing 90% of the time. You're better off just not bothering and using weapons from other classes for these.

Summoner needs a pre-boss minion that doesn't require ridiculous RNG to obtain. That's really all it needs right now.
 
You are posting in a thread about how the Summoner could be made better. Either the current Summoner is OK or it should be improved. Saying that you should just like it or lump it is kind of off-topic.
I'm not sure what's up with the cherry-picking, but it was obviously a post made to address issues that came up beyond the scope of this linear conversation. If we're going to start being intellectually dishonest, there's no point in continuing on, as it's only going to degrade into something useless. I'm not going to entertain this kinda stuff any farther & if it continues, I'll just disengage. Either we have a real discussion, or none at all.

That's gone now; Water Bolt in 1.4 will not spawn above the Dungeon Guardian levels of the Dungeon. Now, it might spawn right at the point where the DG spawns, so maybe if you suicide-run your way through, you might get one into your inventory before dying.
That sounds a bit more interesting honestly, & I personally like that change. I'm looking forward to trying to bypass a gate like this, thanks for the update. 🤔🍹

That's not really luck; web and gems are just stuff you collect while exploring. Yes, it takes time, but exploration is the meat of the game; you're expected to take that time, and part of your reward is being able to craft mage gear. It's an alternative to the ore system for melee and ranged weapons, but one which is gained by doing the same things. That is, everybody gets enough stuff to do this just by playing the game.
I'm only replying to this to give you & everyone else notice, I'm fairly sure no one here thinks that finding Gems & Ores is random, you may or may not find them depending on your World Gen, meaning, a certain type of Gems may be desirable, but you may just have to settle for another if you don't run into them, only because, by that time, you may just find something better, then there's no point to doing so. I feel like that's fairly obvious & doesn't need to be explained, so the next time someone states the obvious, I'm going to purposely ignore it. You've been warned.

And even Tim isn't entirely luck based; if you're wearing Gem robes and not wearing the hat, the game will automatically increase Tim's spawn rate.
Cool, I didn't know that. This is a benefit of Meta-gaming so, good on you for knowing spawn-rate numbers, it's valuable information to have. I'm not a numbers guy.

By contrast, it could be hours of tedious grinding during Blood Moons before you get the one drop that lets you do summoning. And even then, how would you know to do that grinding if you didn't know it existed?
Exactly, you get lucky. I must admit though, your position is confusing since you're a numbers person, why exactly are you interjecting grinding in a mystery senario, where we are assuming the player doesn't know to look for a thing? The natural route would be to keep the Summon you have, because it doesn't hurt to have it & move on, you wouldn't grind for a newer one. This is why Meta-gaming & natural progression should never be compared, but I'm seeing a LOT of that here for some reason, which leads me to suspect that people are microwaving their information instead of developing their own strategies. I'm tempted to say the word posers at this point, but I'll hold off judgement for now.

No, pre-Queen Bee summoner stuff is a lucky drop, a bonus, not a real part of progression.
I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, so I'll just drop this link here if it is & somehow our wires got crossed? 🙄🍹

I don't buy your notion of what the developers wanted the Summoner class to be. It's clear that it has evolved since the first summon weapon was added to the game. The progressive addition of more and more Summoner content seems to me clearly intended to make the Summoner class as "in-your-face" as the others.
Summoner Staffs are Class Neutral helpers. Every Class can benefit from having a Minion, even if they don't know that Summoner exists. I'm not sure why I have to explain this to a numbers person, or person who Meta-games but, the evidence is there, clear as day. If you choose not to see it, then, ok. I'm not gonna keep beating you over the head with proof to try & change your mind.

The issue is why the pre-Queen Bee stuff is so RNG-based that you can't really rely on it without tedious grinding. And the reason is basically everything you've said, just turned around.
I'm just replying to make it clear that I'm not repeating myself anymore. It's random for a reason & if you're still not getting it, then hey... I don't know what else to tell you.

If I'm using a sword, and I pick a bow as a secondary weapon, I cannot use the bow while I'm using the sword and vice-versa. I must switch from one to the other. And that cost is usually paid via another of the 10 quick-bar slots. And even though there are 10 of them, some are a lot more convenient to reach than others.
Yep, I think you're about to have a revelation & then squander it... let's see what comes next. 🤔🍹

But here's the thing: that's not true for summoners early-game.
Yep... *facepalm*

If I happen to get a staff, then with a Summoner Potion, I can summon a couple of things and still go back to my regular play. I don't have to spend any quick-bar slots because you don't need to summon things in the middle of combat. So I'm still 100% as effective at their playing melee/ranged/mage build as before. It's just that I'm getting some extra damage in by these summons.
Yep...

I'm not a "summoner"; I'm a melee/ranged/mage with extra DPS.
Yep... you're 100% correct.

Because of that, early-game summons cannot be powerful. This is why they're all terrible or RNG-based. If they were really good, then every class would just use them and the game would have to be re-balanced with the expectation that everyone uses them.
*facepalm*

That's the fundamental problem with early game summons as a concept: it's too easy for other classes to use them, so they have to be nerfed into near-useless lest they unbalance the game.
*Le sigh* You just described the strengths of being a Summoner, in a nut-shell, & somehow turned it into a negative. The point is to power-up your minions & do the exact thing everyone else is, but better. There are Archery Potions too you know, & Wrath & Danger Sense & Hunter & other beneficial items. I don't see the problem, I see a person trying to Meta-game without any real context. You essentially classified Summoner as a challenge run, & then immediately proceed toward critiquing balance & natural progression. Why would a Meta-gamer care about any of that stuff? I gotta be honest, this is starting to make me dizzy... 😒🍹
 
That's not early game. You can't get meteor armor before killing the Evil Bosses. Also Crimson Armor is actually broken and can last you well into hardmode no matter what class you're playing. It boosts damage to all classes, meaning that both your minions and primary weapons are boosted, and gives so much regeneration that you basically have a Shiny Stone while moving.
A lot of this stuff is debatable, which I'm glad is the case, as it's healthy for the game. I won't bother to disagree with you, I like that we don't 100% agree on this, everybody wins in this scenario.

Assuming you get either of them. The Finch Staff may only show up once per world, which may or may not have a living tree, may or may not have a chest inside said living tree, and may or may not even have the staff inside that chest. The Vampire Frog is a bit similar, every night may or may not be a blood moon, which gives you 9 minutes in which you may or may not fish up a miniboss, and that boss may or may not even drop the staff. My Master Mode Summoner playthrough didn't even generate with an empty living tree, let alone a chest inside it. I basically had to get Crimson Armor and go ranger for the entirety of pre-hardmode.
True, but if you're Meta-gaming & not interested in normal progression, you just load a World Gen that has one (a Finch or Slime Staff), or give yourself one from a Legacy Character & start your adventure. If you're gonna Metagame, lean into it, don't try to play both sides; that's not how it works. 😒🍹

Do you see my problem with earlygame summoner? It's borderline impossible to get any minions most of the time. It's not a matter of personal preference, they just require so many layers of RNG to obtain that 90% of playthroughs you aren't even going to get either when they're relevant.
I'm gonna say this, one... last... time, If you're gonna Metagame, lean into it, don't try to play both sides; that's not... how... it works. 🙄🍹

but what minion are you even getting before the hornet staff in every single playthrough?

Whatever Minion you want, if you're trying to do a challenge run? 🤷‍♂️🍹

Which would be fine... if bee wax wasn't better used on beenades instead.
...or, why not just have both? If you can kill the Queen once, you can do it six (6) more times, if not for the gold alone (you might even get early-game flight out of it, who knows?).

Sentries aren't usually helpful. The Ballista is slow and doesn't lead it's shots, the Flameburst can't even hit above itself, the Lightning Aura's base damage is almost negligible in prehardmode (it completely ignores defense, but it has this annoying quirk where you have to divide it's listed damage by 3 to even see it's actual value) and the Explosive Trap just sits there and does nothing 90% of the time. You're better off just not bothering and using weapons from other classes for these.
If we're Meta-gaming here, why are we critiquing free, extra damage? It doesn't need to hit all the time, it only need to hit once. This is why most of the common complaints I'm seeing are very confusing. If you don't want the Sentry because it's arguably bad, you can't complain about Meta-gaming if you're then leaving a 5% potential increasing to efficacy on the table, while also, somehow doing natural progression. My brain is twisting up in my skull right now & I'm trying my best to understand how we're even getting here. I wanna say so much, but I'm gonna hold off until it becomes obvious who I'm dealing with. I'll just keep sorting out this tangled wire until we come to an understanding... if that's even possible. 😵🍹

Summoner needs a pre-boss minion that doesn't require ridiculous RNG to obtain. That's really all it needs right now.
Journey Mode (period).
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
True, but if you're Meta-gaming & not interested in normal progression, you just load a World Gen that has one (a Finch or Slime Staff), or give yourself one from a Legacy Character & start your adventure. If you're gonna Metagame, lean into it, don't try to play both sides; that's not how it works. 😒🍹
I play for fun, not to cheese the game by giving myself all the equipment I need. You're confusing metagaming with plain common sense.
I'm gonna say this, one... last... time, If you're gonna Metagame, lean into it, don't try to play both sides; that's not... how... it works. 🙄🍹
Why are you so convinced I'm metagaming when I just don't want to world hop in a game that you're supposed to be able to beat without worldhopping. I will say this one last time. I. don't. speedrun. And I. play. for. fun. I play by the rules the game infers to me because it's fun to be limited by them, but when the rules completely fail to deliver to be engaging in the slightest you can't call that fair or fun. You want me to cheat, when I just want the ability to play a class without cheating. You do not have to be a "metagamer" to be knowledgable about a game you enjoy and have played for years. You say you learned the game on your own terms, but guess who did too?
Whatever Minion you want, if you're trying to do a challenge run? 🤷‍♂️🍹
I never said I was trying to do a challenge run, you are confusing yourself and skipping over what I'm actually saying because you apparently can't dedicate less than 5 minutes of your time. In fact, at no point in this thread did I EVER mention challenge runs.
...or, why not just have both? If you can kill the Queen once, you can do it six (6) more times, if not for the gold alone (you might even get early-game flight out of it, who knows?).
Her summon items require resources that aren't renewable, and her natural spawns are highly limited and one time things per world. If you can kill the queen once, you can do it 6 more times, but that's only if you can actually summon her 6 more times.
If we're Meta-gaming here,
We're not. I'm using the knowledge I've learned by actually using the items. If I had gotten my knowledge from other people I would consider the Lightning Aura sentries A or B tier like everyone else.
It doesn't need to hit all the time, it only need to hit once. This is why most of the common complaints I'm seeing are very confusing. If you don't want the Sentry because it's arguably bad, you can't complain about Meta-gaming if you're then leaving a 5% potential increasing to efficacy on the table, while also, somehow doing natural progression. My brain is twisting up in my skull right now & I'm trying my best to understand how we're even getting here. I wanna say so much, but I'm gonna hold off until it becomes obvious who I'm dealing with. I'll just keep sorting out this tangled wire until we come to an understanding... if that's even possible. 😵🍹
Old One's Army is hardly natural progression. You have to go very far out of your way to get it. You need to find an NPC that's completely optional for progression, and then you need to build a massive flat area, because if you didn't cheat and go into another world the sentry he basically gives you by default doesn't even work until you've beaten the event for the first time.
Journey Mode (period).
You're asking me to balance things around a mode where unlimited health is exactly 2 clicks away from the moment you spawn in a new world. I can't do that, and it should be fairly obvious why. I should be able to enjoy the game while sticking to it's original intent. Grinding is fine, Fishing is fine, but if I literally can't get an item in most worlds (*cough* finch staff *cough*) or you have unfairly short windows for an item that would take a long time to obtain even if the window was far longer than it is (*cough* vampire frog staff *cough*) then you can't call that good design. Period.
 
I play for fun, not to cheese the game by giving myself all the equipment I need. You're confusing metagaming with plain common sense.
Here's my issue with you, right. You wanna talk about plain common sense, but are unhappy with the intended progression of Early-Game Summoner Class. Instead of fixing a very easily remedied issue, that I'm certain you know exists, you'd rather ice skate up hill against the vision of the developers? You know what, ok; have fun. If this is how you enjoy the game, who am I to critique your take on it? Go out there & be totally disappointed, that World Gen didn't favor your Summoner run... you're free to do that. 🙄🍹

Why are you so convinced I'm metagaming...You want me to cheat, when I just want the ability to play a class without cheating. You do not have to be a "metagamer" to be knowledgable about a game you enjoy and have played for years. You say you learned the game on your own terms, but guess who did too?
Did you know that you actually start out with a Finch Staff in Journey Mode? If you think it's cheating to give yourself a universally identified, starting-game-item, then fine. You have every right to consider it cheating & I won't bother trying to change your mind.

I never said I was trying to do a challenge run, you are confusing yourself and skipping over what I'm actually saying because you apparently can't dedicate less than 5 minutes of your time. In fact, at no point in this thread did I EVER mention challenge runs.

Subjecting yourself to RNG, farming & grinding, when there are other, easier options is a choice, you do know that right? If you just wanna play Terraria, for fun, you have three (3) other Classes to choose from, you don't have to play as a Summoner, especially if you don't enjoy it's progression path. What you're describing right now is a challenge run, whether you realize that fact or not (especially when you start throwing out numbers & statistics).

Her summon items require resources that aren't renewable, and her natural spawns are highly limited and one time things per world. If you can kill the queen once, you can do it 6 more times, but that's only if you can actually summon her 6 more times.
...as a person who apparently learned the game on your own terms, you should know that there's NO shortage of items in World Gen, especially a Large World, to Summon the Queen up to fifty (50) times if you'd like. Just because the resource is limited, doesn't mean it's cripplingly limited, you'll have plenty, trust me. 🙄🍹

We're not. I'm using the knowledge I've learned by actually using the items. If I had gotten my knowledge from other people I would consider the Lightning Aura sentries A or B tier like everyone else.
Fair enough. You're right, you are 100% free to ignore a passive buff to Summoner Class.

Old One's Army is hardly natural progression. You have to go very far out of your way to get it. You need to find an NPC that's completely optional for progression, and then you need to build a massive flat area, because if you didn't cheat and go into another world the sentry he basically gives you by default doesn't even work until you've beaten the event for the first time.
I'm guessing you're assuming this is all accidental still, right? Ok, fine, you are 100% free to feel that OOA isn't worth the investment. However, it's important to note that the items the Barkeep caries upgrade after killing a Mech, so... do whatever you want; Terraria is a Sandbox game.

You're asking me to balance things around a mode where unlimited health is exactly 2 clicks away from the moment you spawn in a new world. I can't do that, and it should be fairly obvious why. I should be able to enjoy the game while sticking to it's original intent. Grinding is fine, Fishing is fine, but if I literally can't get an item in most worlds (*cough* finch staff *cough*) or you have unfairly short windows for an item that would take a long time to obtain even if the window was far longer than it is (*cough* vampire frog staff *cough*) then you can't call that good design. Period.
Well, that's your opinion & you're entitled to having it. I don't think it's right to tell you that your opinion is wrong, but at least we know that-that's the real issue, it's all a matter of difference in opinion. Here's my take on the situation, not even disagreeing with you.
  • While fishing for Minions, you are also fishing for ores, items & Crates (I'm not gonna state the obvious, because I'm sure you're an intelligent person).
  • Fishing can net you items to craft an Early-game Balloon w/ Puffer Fish & will start you on a path to crafting Frog Gear... if you want it.
  • Notice how many of the items you get from fishing are movement-based options, minus the spelunking? You think that's a coincidence?
  • Whatever you don't want from fishing, you can sale, which is game progression even if you don't get lucky.
All of these things I listed above, naturally blend together, it only becomes grinding if you want a very specific item & aren't willing to move on without it, or you hate fishing. None of that is bad design, it's player inflicted masochism & limitations (i.e. a challenge run). If there's something you want from grinding, there's likely two (2) other ways you could be doing it that aren't; choosing not to is just that, a choice.
 

Jota Bame

Terrarian
Honestly the only issue with Summoner progression is that Flinch Staff and especially Vampire Frog are ridiculously hard to obtain for no good reason at all.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
You just described the strengths of being a Summoner, in a nut-shell, & somehow turned it into a negative.
No, I described "being a melee/ranged/mage that gets extra DPS".

"Being a melee character" means, at the very least, that the primary mechanism you have chosen for dealing damage is to use weapons with the "melee" damage type. "Being a ranged character" means that your primary damage is coming from weapons with a "ranged" damage type. Etc.

If you're doing most of your damage with ranged weapons, you are not "being a Summoner"; you are "being a Ranger". There is a distinction between a character who deals summon damage that occasionally gets some damage in with ranged weapons, and a character who deals ranged damage that occasionally gets some damage in with summons. The absolute best you might say is that you're multiclassing, but you aren't using summons as your primary means of dealing damage. So you are not "being a Summoner".

That is what people are talking about in this thread: they're not allowed to be a character who, in the early game, primarily deals Summon damage, while maybe getting some extra damage in with other weapon types. They're only allowed to "be a Melee/Ranger/Mage" who might get some extra damage in with summons.

You say that things are this way by the desires of the developer. I'm saying that things are this way because of inherent limitations of the system, based on the fact that early summons cost nothing and therefore can improve any build and therefore must be terrible/difficult to get to avoid imbalancing the game and therefore must not be viable in and of itself.

So long as early summons have no built-in costs, so long as using them requires zero investment in them, they will have to be terrible and/or RNG-based. And therefore, no early game "being a Summoner".

Here's my issue with you, right. You wanna talk about plain common sense, but are unhappy with the intended progression of Early-Game Summoner Class. Instead of fixing a very easily remedied issue, that I'm certain you know exists, you'd rather ice skate up hill against the vision of the developers?
The issue with what you've said is that it relies on two factors. First, the belief that the current state of things is "the intended progression of Early-Game Summoner Class," as opposed to design errors or an attempt to improve summoner progression that didn't quite work as intended or a compromised result of fundamental problems with the Summoner class. And second, that the current design is actually good, by some definition. That is, you have to believe that the flow of Summoner gear is both exactly what the developers intended and represents good game design.

Anyone who disagrees with those two factors has the right to complain about it and to suggest changes/fixes. And that's no different from any number of other changes that users have asked for.

They added gem robes and other early-game mage gear because user's complained about early mages being unavailable. Anybody could have come along and defended the 1.1 mage era by claiming it is the "intended progression of Early-Game Mage Class" by the developers, and thus opposing it rather than just downloading a mod that adds early-game mage items is just "ice skating up hill against the vision of the developers".

But the developers listened to us and added early-game mage gear.

What makes you so sure your argument is right this time, when it would have applied in 1.1 and was clearly wrong?
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Here's my issue with you, right. You wanna talk about plain common sense, but are unhappy with the intended progression of Early-Game Summoner Class. Instead of fixing a very easily remedied issue, that I'm certain you know exists, you'd rather ice skate up hill against the vision of the developers? You know what, ok; have fun. If this is how you enjoy the game, who am I to critique your take on it? Go out there & be totally disappointed, that World Gen didn't favor your Summoner run... you're free to do that. 🙄🍹
Did you know that you actually start out with a Finch Staff in Journey Mode? If you think it's cheating to give yourself a universally identified, starting-game-item, then fine. You have every right to consider it cheating & I won't bother trying to change your mind.
Subjecting yourself to RNG, farming & grinding, when there are other, easier options is a choice, you do know that right? If you just wanna play Terraria, for fun, you have three (3) other Classes to choose from, you don't have to play as a Summoner, especially if you don't enjoy it's progression path. What you're describing right now is a challenge run, whether you realize that fact or not (especially when you start throwing out numbers & statistics).
I'm a wiring lover so this might not apply to you, but I have a very big issue with Journey Mode in it's current state, and it's reason enough to not use it for me:

1592685597657.png
1592685604102.png

You see these?
These two statues are completely unobtainable in Journey Mode, because the only way to get them is to find naturally generated ones in Expert and Master mode worlds. The second statue is particularly important because it's the only statue in the game which can summon a creature that can activate Teal Pressure Pads without penetrating walls and breaking contraptions.
Journey worlds don't count as either of those on world generation, making it so they cannot exist, and you can't just load a non-journey world and find one either, for obvious reasons. Until this is fixed, that mode is a no-go for me.

Also, it's not a choice if you have no other worlds with the items in question easily accessible for your new character.
...as a person who apparently learned the game on your own terms, you should know that there's NO shortage of items in World Gen, especially a Large World, to Summon the Queen up to fifty (50) times if you'd like. Just because the resource is limited, doesn't mean it's cripplingly limited, you'll have plenty, trust me. 🙄🍹
I'm terribly sorry, I haven't crafted one since 1.2.0, because I've been using only natural spawns. I didn't realize they changed the recipe since then, my mistake. :D
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, that will be genuinely helpful later. Crispy Honey was so annoying to get my hands on, you see, that I just stopped bothering.
Well, that's your opinion & you're entitled to having it. I don't think it's right to tell you that your opinion is wrong, but at least we know that-that's the real issue, it's all a matter of difference in opinion. Here's my take on the situation, not even disagreeing with you.
  • While fishing for Minions, you are also fishing for ores, items & Crates (I'm not gonna state the obvious, because I'm sure you're an intelligent person).
  • Fishing can net you items to craft an Early-game Balloon w/ Puffer Fish & will start you on a path to crafting Frog Gear... if you want it.
  • Notice how many of the items you get from fishing are movement-based options, minus the spelunking? You think that's a coincidence?
  • Whatever you don't want from fishing, you can sale, which is game progression even if you don't get lucky.
All of these things I listed above, naturally blend together, it only becomes grinding if you want a very specific item & aren't willing to move on without it, or you hate fishing. None of that is bad design, it's player inflicted masochism & limitations (i.e. a challenge run). If there's something you want from grinding, there's likely two (2) other ways you could be doing it that aren't; choosing not to is just that, a choice.
I use Sonar potions so that I can speed up the process and get monsters with every catch during a blood moon, so that's not really happening while I'm aiming for the vampire frog staff specifically unless I spot the Frog Leg. I do have those things apply to me when not using the precious 9 minutes I have for that golden opportunity, though. (seriously, you only get 9 minutes to catch a monster, defeat it, and then you have less than a 1/20 chance of getting it for each monster, they really need to buff that droprate :sigh:)

I don't hate fishing (in fact, It's one of my favorite parts of this game), I hate how you can only get this item from a rare successful opportunity within a rare successful opportunity within a rare successful opportunity, having to throw yourself at the mercy of 3 different levels of RNG is the part that's bad design, especially when none of the other blood moon fishing drops in prehardmode are particularly useful (well, maybe the blood rain bow, but it's really only helpful for eye of cthulhu, which really isn't that challenging anyway).
 
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If you're doing most of your damage with ranged weapons, you are not "being a Summoner"; you are "being a Ranger". There is a distinction between a character who deals summon damage that occasionally gets some damage in with ranged weapons, and a character who deals ranged damage that occasionally gets some damage in with summons. The absolute best you might say is that you're multiclassing, but you aren't using summons as your primary means of dealing damage. So you are not "being a Summoner".
What you described sounds like a spectrum & is extremely open to interpretation. I could easily argue that there are varying degrees of being a Summoner & my point of view would be just as valid as yours. It's good design because everybody wins, there is no right or wrong way to be a Summoner, you can dump everything you have into buffing your Minions, or you can make a minor, to substantial investment. I don't want that to change, because that's what a Sandbox Game should be. Summoner Armor doesn't make me any more of a Summoner than an Emblem IMHO, or a Scroll, or a Beetle, or a Potion, Bewitching Table or whether or not an annoying enemy drops exactly the item I want.

You say that things are this way by the desires of the developer. I'm saying that things are this way because of inherent limitations of the system, based on the fact that early summons cost nothing and therefore can improve any build and therefore must be terrible/difficult to get to avoid imbalancing the game and therefore must not be viable in and of itself.
I won't argue that this might be one of the main factors for a LOT of their design choices, but I'm familiar enough with the game to know that changing these things with the suggestions I've seen from the average player would absolutely ruin the game, in balancing, in charm, character, uniqueness, different upgrading paths & much more. The Class is functional & powerful enough already, it doesn't need more stuff; that'll likely cause unforeseen issues in a Final Update. Once they're done, they're done. Do we really wanna start playing with fire with something so inconsequential that can be fixed by the player themselves, if they wanna be a Summoner purist so badly, or by simply playing Journey Mode? I vote no, h*ll no; it's not worth it!
---

I'm a wiring lover so this might not apply to you, but I have a very big issue with Journey Mode in it's current state, and it's reason enough to not use it for me:

View attachment 279736View attachment 279737
You see these?
These two statues are completely unobtainable in Journey Mode, because the only way to get them is to find naturally generated ones in Expert and Master mode worlds...I'm terribly sorry, I haven't crafted one since 1.2.0, because I've been using only natural spawns. I didn't realize they changed the recipe since then, my mistake. :D
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, that will be genuinely helpful later. Crispy Honey was so annoying to get my hands on, you see, that I just stopped bothering
There we go! Now we're getting somewhere! I'm pretty sure this is an issue the Developers likely didn't account for. The easiest solution would be for these kinds of statues to be craftable in Graveyard Biomes, possibly even making them a pain in the a** to make? This is a real issue, that has nothing to do with touching Summoner & possibly breaking things. I 100% agree that this issue should be addressed & this is what you should be fighting for while we still have time! I'm almost certain that no one will disagree with you about this, especially not me!

I use Sonar potions so that I can speed up the process and get monsters with every catch during a blood moon, so that's not really happening while I'm aiming for the vampire frog staff specifically unless I spot the Frog Leg. I do have those things apply to me when not using the precious 9 minutes I have for that golden opportunity, though. (seriously, you only get 9 minutes to catch a monster, defeat it, and then you have less than a 1/20 chance of getting it for each monster, they really need to buff that droprate :sigh:)
I personally enjoy the rarity & the focus you need to have, if you really want the items. Just so you know though, you can freeze time in Journey Mode. I fully understand why you don't wanna play it now, but if the issue with the statues is fixed, it's an option you can certainly use to increase your success rate. I'd personally fight for the statue issue, that's much more likely to be changed than the current progression path of Summoners.

I don't hate fishing (in fact, It's one of my favorite parts of this game), I hate how you can only get this item from a rare successful opportunity within a rare successful opportunity within a rare successful opportunity, having to throw yourself at the mercy of 3 different levels of RNG is the part that's bad design, especially when none of the other blood moon fishing drops in prehardmode are particularly useful (well, maybe the blood rain bow, but it's really only helpful for eye of cthulhu, which really isn't that challenging anyway).
I can understand, but item rarity is a part of Terraria's identity. If you want the rarity of the drop to be improved in the player favor, I won't contest it, even if I do disagree. I don't think any of the items they drop are essential enough to warrant an increase, but that's just my opinion & not a strong enough opinion to oppose you on suggesting it be slightly changed.
 
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