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Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
I know that I'm probably super late to the party but... who approved this? Why is there a Hardmode Sword in pre-Hardmode!? 
The Bat Bat is not ok!!
- Thread starter Toxophilite [East]
- Start date
ppowersteef
Paladin
It's a very slow sword to offset it's damage, I don't see how it compares to hardmode swords
Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
It's not like I've been struggling with swords or anything [Not the Bees! Map], but there's an obvious drawback when it comes to using them. Not too long ago, I just got done crafting a Tungsten Sword and Bow and things felt better, been using that thing to mow enemies down, but strategically, spacing is everything in pre-Hardmode.
Oh... but then drops the Bat Bat! Let's just say, I stopped using Grenades and Bows altogether...
Easy, if you brought any Hardmode Sword into a pre-Hardmode Map, you'd notice the Power Boost immediatly, that's what it feels like wielding this GD Weapon!
- Excellent swing arch.
- Healing ability (special feature).
- Multi-Hit swings.
- d*mn near perfect knockback (guaranteeing a follow-up attack).
- better than Purple Clubberfish.
I don't know what to say to you then, this thing is ****ing ridiculous!
The damage is just part of it, did you know this thing has multi-hits on swing? More like 62 damage (especially with Sharpening Station), I don't even have the Sharktooth Necklace yet; this is crazy!!
Esther
Stardust Pillar
Um... Breaker Blade is hardmode.
ppowersteef
Paladin
You could have specify before that it could double hit, prior to this post. You only showed their stats. Implying their stats were broken.Easy, if you brought any Hardmode Sword into a pre-Hardmode Map, you'd notice the Power Boost immediatly, that's what it feels like wielding this GD Weapon!
- Excellent swing arch.
- Healing ability (special feature).
- Multi-Hit swings.
- d*mn near perfect knockback (guaranteeing a follow-up attack).
- better than Purple Clubberfish.
I don't know what to say to you then, this thing is ****ing ridiculous!
For someone who havn't checked out the Don't Starve content, the stats alone weren't telling the full story.
From the context now, yeah, the double-hit in one swing seem broken for it's damage and availability.
I see a distinct lack of HM-level DPS, which is probably, you know, one of the MOST factors in making such a determination. Even its raw damage per hit is merely high, and certainly not HM approximate.
- Yes, it has good reach. Intentional.
- Yes, it has good knockback. Intentional, to go with its large-but-slow design.
- Yes, it has a special healing ability, one which has a fairly low output but is nice nonetheless, but requires you to use it exclusively to make the best of it.
- Multi-hit swings? You'd need to be more specific, there is no special ability here aside just being slow and big. It can't hit single targets more than once, unless there is some bug. I'm not observing such.
- Purple Clubberfish is a terrible reference for comparison because it itself is fairly underwhelming, especially in comparison to Rockfish.
This is a weapon which trades much in the way of decent DPS in favor of being a large knockback stick with some slight healing bonuses. Is it useful? If you get it early enough, sure.
Is it Hardmode comparable? Not by a long shot. It has 40% of the DPS of Cobalt Sword, which is pretty much the worst of the worst when it comes to main line Hardmode Broadswords. It gains the ability to heal as much as 1 jar of Bottled Honey per minute, if you are landing hits 100% of the time for the entire duration.
The Owler
Living Tree
Ooo, fair point. Then again, it's right on the fringe coming from the boss that activates Hardmode, so that's why I got confused.
Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
I just assumed that I came in on The Late Train, this content has been out for a decent amount of time. With all the tier lists, and number guys that typically have strong opinions on the forums, I'm honestly shocked that I'm the person to "showcase" this, I'm just as surprised as anyone here.
I wasn't trying to be deceptive, I simply assumed that at least someone had to know about this, espcially considering the fact that @Leinfors was one of the first ppl to comment; surely he'd know about Bat Bat... right, right!? S**t, I guess not??
I went from Tungsten, to what feels like a post-Skeletron, arguably Wall of Flesh tier'd Weapon.
Do me a solid... do a Developer test where 6-7 Zombies [Expert or Higher] are charging you from one direction, then both.
- In scenario one, use a Melee Weapon crafted from... let's say BoC or EoW, do both tests.
- In scenario two, use Bat Bat, and see which Weapon feels superior to you.
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Do me a solid... do a Developer test where 6-7 Zombies [Expert or Higher] are charging you from one direction, then both.
If the winner is Bat Bat, there's a balancing issue here... regardless of my HM Sword comparison being somewhat debatable.
- In scenario one, use a Melee Weapon crafted from... let's say BoC or EoW, do both tests.
- In scenario two, use Bat Bat, and see which Weapon feels superior to you.
So there's an initial starting issue here that there aren't exactly many "Melee weapons crafted from BoC/EoW". Tools aside, there are no items that qualify for that description except for The Meatball. You could argue that Rotted Fork qualifies as a Crimson Heart drop, though there is no Corruption equivalent, though there is Ball O Hurt.
Light's Bane and Blood Butcherer, on the other hand, are pre-Evil, EoC-tier (or even pre-EoC available) high end ore weapons. So lets take a look here:
Lets look at all four:
- Light's Bane is likely the weakest contender, and has traditionally been very weak overall (less so with recent buffs). It has relatively short range, which works against it, but its KB is nearly as high as Bat Bat, and its DPS is about 25% higher (though more impacted by Defense). With a higher hit rate, it is applying Knockback more often than Bat Bat, which is acting in its favor. Overall, better DPS, but lower range means for your specific test condition, its fairly even with Bat Bat. Testing it myself, I found this to be the case.
- Blood Butcherer is Light's Bane's bigger brother. With larger reach than LB, it performs very well in the test you've proposed. It has roughly 25% more DPS than Bat Bat, and still has "nearly" as much KB, but with a dramatically higher hit rate, it will be dealing KB more often and at higher ranges. It is a clear winner in every way, aside from the lack of healing.
- Meat Ball is not terribly comparable to a sword, but for the sake of this test, it passes with flying colors. The "spin and hold" function is better at keeping Zombies away than Bat Bat, and the direct swing's boosted DPS and high piercing potential clears out the groups of zombies substantially faster than Bat Bat. An extremely clear win for Meatball, surpassing Blood Butcherer as well.
- Rotted Fork, same as Meat Ball, isn't a great comparison for a broadsword . . . partly because it excels at the test as you've described. Its high piercing, range, and knockback allow it to clear the horde(s) safely and much more quickly than any of the others, save perhaps Meat Ball.
Lets throw in one more for fun:
- Phaseblade, traditionally considered "pretty weak" for its recently changed post-Evil Boss tier, is a fairly cut and dried broadsword. Its range is similar to Bat Bat, albeit much lower KB (lower than any of the swords mentioned in this discussion). Despite that, its higher swing speed allows it to do a reasonable amount of KB, especially in tandem with its boosted range. Its DPS, "low for its tier" as it may be, is about 45% higher than Bat Bat, so it clears the mobs significantly faster. Its base damage is not far from Bat Bat's, so defense impacts are not particularly impactful compared to Bat Bat.
Note that of all of the weapons above, only Meat Ball and Phaseblades are ostensibly "post Evil Boss", with the other three being accessible prior to completing any bosses at all.
I suppose I could have included Malaise and Artery, but they really don't seem applicable to the scenario at all, Yoyos are not optimal for "swarm" clearing like that. They'd likely lose out of hand.
Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
I mean, I haven't seen ANY compelling evidence that there is even close to a balance issue. Only your perception that it has one. "Feels like a Skeletron/Wall of Flesh weapon" doesn't count for much when any objective analysis of it seems to the contrary.
Why are you trying to balance test a sword versus a tool, especially a tool that has never been rebalanced and hasn't been buffed since 1.0.6? Isn't that stacking the deck in your favor a bit?
Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
Perhaps it's my own lack of experience with Melee Class, once I obtained Tungsten Ore, I assumed the next step was either Gold or Platinum, or some Weapon I'd find from an Enemy Underground [Jungle], not something like The Bat Bat, not only did it save me money on buying Grenades, it made my Tungsten Bow "useless". That's quite the tier jump to me, considering the Enemy that it drops from, I don't recall a jump quite like that in this game, save for Bee Armor to Obsidian Armor, or Bee Armor to Spider Armor [ease of access being considered here].
I wasn't trying to "win" or something, this really felt out of place. Also, I use Hammers quite often due to their high knockback [Summoner Hybrids], I don't typically rely solely on the highest DPS Weapon I can obtain, I like synergy more than I like BIG numbers; The Breaker was a pretty good weapon IMHO, well... when Bat Bat wasn't a thing.
Bat Bat is in line with many of the "rare Day 1 weapons", such as Bone Sword or Chain Knife, which offer a fairly huge tier progression skip within the "ore tier" if you get them early enough. Bone Sword, for example, falls between Gold and Platinum Broadswords in terms of DPS, but has better range.
They are actually usually considered quite "underpowered" by a lot of balancers in my experience, but I feel they have a role and are suited for it.
They are actually usually considered quite "underpowered" by a lot of balancers in my experience, but I feel they have a role and are suited for it.
Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
This thing is ****ing nutz [The Bat Bat]; I'm not even optimized for Melee Class either... I have no idea what they're talking about.
Dapling
Duke Fishron
If you really want numbers guys’ opinions on this, Bat Bat has a base dps of 43 and a base healing of 1.33 hp/second. Neither of these are particularly notable, in fact the latter is barely more than a band of regeneration, and even a particularly unremarkable sword obtained fairly early on (Light’s Bane) has a base dps of 56. Multihitting is outright impossible for broadswords as they inflict global immunity frames equal to the remaining frames in their swing animation (meaning the sword is effectively intangible against an enemy it has already hit until your next swing), and if bat bat is capable of breaking this rule then it’s an oversight which will be patched in 1.4.4. Bat Bat’s ridiculously high use time also ensures it’s not going to be disrupting more than a few enemies at once either, as another rule of broadswords is that they can only hit 3 enemies per swing. Unless you can provide video evidence of bat bat multihitting a single target in action then I’m thoroughly not convinced of it being particularly powerful even on its intended tier, let alone the entirety of prehardmode.
By the way the equation for calculating single target dps in the case of simple single-hit weapons like broadswords is as follows, if you wish to draw further comparisons to other broadswords that lack projectiles (projectile swords tend to be more complicated, especially when their projectiles use a separate timer from the main sword’s use time, so don’t use this for those):
[Damage]*(60/[Use Time])*(1+[% Critical Strike Chance])
By the way the equation for calculating single target dps in the case of simple single-hit weapons like broadswords is as follows, if you wish to draw further comparisons to other broadswords that lack projectiles (projectile swords tend to be more complicated, especially when their projectiles use a separate timer from the main sword’s use time, so don’t use this for those):
[Damage]*(60/[Use Time])*(1+[% Critical Strike Chance])
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Toxophilite [East]
Terrarian
@Omega Derpling , actually, once I get a full set of Molten Armor, I'm gonna attempt WoF [Expert] with Bat Bat, it feels powerful enough to pull off. If I can do that, I'm gonna still be convinced that this Sword is bonkers...
Side Note: I'm probably gonna also use Vampire Frogs x3 as a Hybrid [B.Table and S.Potion].
Side Note: I'm probably gonna also use Vampire Frogs x3 as a Hybrid [B.Table and S.Potion].
Dapling
Duke Fishron
Um, okay then, but the test isn’t going to mean very much if you don’t record the killtime and compare it to other weapons (with wall of flesh it’s actually quite trivial to do as he is kind enough to mark where he died so you can just put a signpost on each box stating which weapon did what). You could theoretically defeat wall of flesh with literally anything that has enough dps to kill it before it squishes you on the opposite end of the world, so you have to compare it here. Also if you want to help your case further it may be advantageous for you to use Snapthorn to increase its swing speed.@Omega Derpling , actually, once I get a full set of Molten Armor, I'm gonna attempt WoF [Expert] with Bat Bat, it feels powerful enough to pull off. If I can do that, I'm gonna still be convinced that this Sword is bonkers...
Side Note: I'm probably gonna also use Vampire Frogs x3 as a Hybrid [B.Table and S.Potion].
Additionally there’s also the issue that bat bat multihitting is straight up not possible if the game is functioning as intended, so unless there was a major oversight with the weapon, those dps numbers from my earlier post are pretty much final for how effective it is before damage buffs (and due to the nature of % damage bonuses that means its dps does not get as much of a flat increase when buffed as weapons with higher dps, same goes for armor penetration as it hits quite slowly so a flat increase to base damage doesn’t benefit it very much either). That’s not really arguable.
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