Shyguymask
Golem
Actually, Summoner can be argued as the second best in post-ml purely because of Lunar Portal Staff being extremely strong. Easily stronger than the like of Last Prism.
The Best & Worst Class In Each Progression Tier (With Explanations)
- Thread starter Shyguymask
- Start date
tornado1234 🌳🪓
Official Terrarian
I actually haven’t ever really used them.
time to get that on my first summoner playthrough if i haven’t…
Edit: tested it against EOL, absolutely insane. Thank you for pretty much teaching me the ways of the lunar pillar staff thingi!
Shyguymask
Golem
I'm up for a discussion, but you need to address and if possible provide counter-arguments to the claims and comparisons I made. Saying that Ranger has great weapons like Aerial Bane isn't a conclusive argument by itself when all the other classes get stuff that are arguably even better. When I compared Aerial Bane against other top tier weapons, while aiming as best as I can (only missing a few shots) as well as applying Ichor, its killtime against Empress of Light was slower than Xeno Staff + Whip stacking and significantly slower than Bubble Gun + Betsy's Wrath.When it shouldn't be
I'm kinda just giving advice after playing this class for... Too long.
Sure, Aerial Bane is easier to use than those two setups. On the other hand however, Aerial Bane is harder to obtain than most of the other weapons I just mentioned. Not only that, simpler & more realistic alternatives such as Xeno Staff + just Kaleidoscope, while slower, are also a lot easier to execute than having near-perfect consistent aiming with Aerial Bane. And again, are easier to obtain. I'm pretty sure Bubble Gun doesn't even need Betsy's Wrath to beat Aerial Bane, and again there are alternatives like Razorpine and especially Blizzard Staff. The reason I'm making a big deal out of this comparison in particular is because Aerial Bane is pretty much the strongest & the peak of Ranger weaponry in pre-cultist, as far as I know every other option is just lesser consistent DPS. Ranger's peak is more difficult to reach and is either on par or a bit worse than the competition.
Tsunami isn't as good as Bubble Gun and Razorblade Typhoon, Shroomite armor isn't as good as Spectre or Beetle or Spooky, Eventide is comparable to Nightglow and arguably worse than Kaleidoscope if we go by Kalei's feats with its best synergy (Xeno Staff). Again, Ranger isn't remotely close to bad or unviable in this tier, it's nothing like Pre-Hardmode Mage.
Mecha_
Golem
Word's like bad only exist because we can compare to something and say it is (relatively.)
I trust in Shy's ability too. That said, I never saw anything about ammo in the post. That's why I'm posting.
Coleyohley
Terrarian
Not necessarily. Would you call scoring 98% on a test a "bad" or "poor" performance? I think it's crazy to imply (or assume that someone else is implying) that something is outright bad just because it's slightly lower than the rest. You still need to explain how these options make it better than the tools the other classes have, too. You've only mentioned things that make it not bad, and nobody here was trying to say it was.
That's because almost everyone who is interested in this thread likely already knows which ammo types are the most practical or do the most damage and thus the variety isn't really worth mentioning.
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Dapling
Queen Bee
Correct, and compared to the other “worst classes” at other points of the game, Ranger isn’t bad.
Kellam Yoshikage
Terrarian
The comparison between Shroomite and Spooky is a bit funny, though, in terms of attainability Shroomite is much closer to Tiki instead. It's just that it never gets a straight upgrade, and doing hybrids with sentries is largely ignored here as otherwise that just gets put down on summoner's resume too. Ballista Panic is also annoyingly easy to activate for something that somehow makes Ballistae do even more DPS than Explosive Trap despite also having better range for bossing.
Though going back up to Sandgun, I recognize that the weapon is a bit unwieldy with placing sand, not everyone wants to place minecart tracks to prevent sand placement, but in terms of saying that it was a best weapon against the Goblin Army, this was referring to the fastest possible kills. Once you have a decent weapon and decent mobility, and can consistently stay out of the way of archers and sorcerers, the Goblin Army isn't going to kill you and it just becomes a matter of what gets the fastest kill. Sandgun, with its infinite pierce no damage dropoff coupled with range that extends outside the screen, and Grenades, which also have all these properties when you consider range extends down, too, are tools that can kill the Goblin Army at the absolute fastest rate, spawning Goblins at their full rate and killing them as they are spawned for the theoretical fastest possible completion of the event. The setups for this are a bit silly, in both cases this involves roping up to build better geometry and for Grenades this is a pit while for Sandgun this is a straight line with torches or tracks at the end, if you don't do this setup you aren't going to get the absolute fastest kill, but I bring this up in response to summoner's damage numbers for goblins being mentioned. Snapthorn and minions do deal a lot of damage, but I wouldn't say that's the most important metric here, as if your only goal is to kill the event as fast as possible, a Grenade pit farm is as fast as it gets.
The reason I brought up jungling is that, yes, it is a very useful place to go, but I would actually attribute this to its open generation and abundance of chests more than anything else. Boomstick is a strong gun, but other guns are plenty good and easier to get, Anklet of the Wind is convenient but I don't like the money cost for reforging Lightning Boots. Staff of Regrowth, yeah, no real way to replace the sheer convenience there besides more time spent farming. As an experienced player, I can go in the jungle early and get lots of chests and a honey bucket and lots of life crystals quickly - if I have a good enough weapon, I might stick around and kill enemies for a blade of grass or axe of regrowth.
For a less experienced player, yeah, they can jungle with the support of a flinx staff and leather whip pretty well, albeit hornets could be an issue with limited range. They could also just use those tools against the Goblin Army, Flinx Staff is indeed plenty of damage for that fight and if they were really scared they could block themselves in and just use the whip to snipe chaos balls. The requirement is never the best, just what's good enough, especially when talking about an event that just shows up at your front door one day with just a couple minutes of warning. When jungling, yeah, ranger is the class that gains the least from jungle loot in the context of Goblins and the evil bosses, no Snapthorn, no Blade of Grass, not even a unique armor set. On the flipside, ranger suffers the least as you start peeling off gear and progression, since Grenades are always there, while you had to make the choice to jungle. That is a choice I will almost always make, but in a recent poll on the official Discord server, 54% of players from a poll of 4,000 said that the jungle/underground jungle is the most annoying biome to traverse in pre-hardmode. The corruption, and thus shadow orbs, was 3rd place at 13%. A lot of players don't make that choice, or at least seem to dread it - underground desert was a distant 2nd at 15%.
Also, I have a personal hatred of Ivy Whip because I can't stand multihooks. Very inconvenient for building. This is pretty personal, but that is why I just don't consider Ivy Whip at all when I'm considering jungling loot. Really I go in early for Staff of Regrowth, potentially grab Feral Claws right before evil bosses or Skeletron if I want to use melee for those fights, then post-Skeletron if I don't have enough spores for Void Bag or don't have Feral Claws for Berserker or Mechanical Glove I go in again. Post-Skeletron is actually the stage where the Guide recommends jungling, which is quite funny considering that he recommends specifically fighting Queen Bee after the evil boss without considering Skeletron there.
Though going back up to Sandgun, I recognize that the weapon is a bit unwieldy with placing sand, not everyone wants to place minecart tracks to prevent sand placement, but in terms of saying that it was a best weapon against the Goblin Army, this was referring to the fastest possible kills. Once you have a decent weapon and decent mobility, and can consistently stay out of the way of archers and sorcerers, the Goblin Army isn't going to kill you and it just becomes a matter of what gets the fastest kill. Sandgun, with its infinite pierce no damage dropoff coupled with range that extends outside the screen, and Grenades, which also have all these properties when you consider range extends down, too, are tools that can kill the Goblin Army at the absolute fastest rate, spawning Goblins at their full rate and killing them as they are spawned for the theoretical fastest possible completion of the event. The setups for this are a bit silly, in both cases this involves roping up to build better geometry and for Grenades this is a pit while for Sandgun this is a straight line with torches or tracks at the end, if you don't do this setup you aren't going to get the absolute fastest kill, but I bring this up in response to summoner's damage numbers for goblins being mentioned. Snapthorn and minions do deal a lot of damage, but I wouldn't say that's the most important metric here, as if your only goal is to kill the event as fast as possible, a Grenade pit farm is as fast as it gets.
The reason I brought up jungling is that, yes, it is a very useful place to go, but I would actually attribute this to its open generation and abundance of chests more than anything else. Boomstick is a strong gun, but other guns are plenty good and easier to get, Anklet of the Wind is convenient but I don't like the money cost for reforging Lightning Boots. Staff of Regrowth, yeah, no real way to replace the sheer convenience there besides more time spent farming. As an experienced player, I can go in the jungle early and get lots of chests and a honey bucket and lots of life crystals quickly - if I have a good enough weapon, I might stick around and kill enemies for a blade of grass or axe of regrowth.
For a less experienced player, yeah, they can jungle with the support of a flinx staff and leather whip pretty well, albeit hornets could be an issue with limited range. They could also just use those tools against the Goblin Army, Flinx Staff is indeed plenty of damage for that fight and if they were really scared they could block themselves in and just use the whip to snipe chaos balls. The requirement is never the best, just what's good enough, especially when talking about an event that just shows up at your front door one day with just a couple minutes of warning. When jungling, yeah, ranger is the class that gains the least from jungle loot in the context of Goblins and the evil bosses, no Snapthorn, no Blade of Grass, not even a unique armor set. On the flipside, ranger suffers the least as you start peeling off gear and progression, since Grenades are always there, while you had to make the choice to jungle. That is a choice I will almost always make, but in a recent poll on the official Discord server, 54% of players from a poll of 4,000 said that the jungle/underground jungle is the most annoying biome to traverse in pre-hardmode. The corruption, and thus shadow orbs, was 3rd place at 13%. A lot of players don't make that choice, or at least seem to dread it - underground desert was a distant 2nd at 15%.
Also, I have a personal hatred of Ivy Whip because I can't stand multihooks. Very inconvenient for building. This is pretty personal, but that is why I just don't consider Ivy Whip at all when I'm considering jungling loot. Really I go in early for Staff of Regrowth, potentially grab Feral Claws right before evil bosses or Skeletron if I want to use melee for those fights, then post-Skeletron if I don't have enough spores for Void Bag or don't have Feral Claws for Berserker or Mechanical Glove I go in again. Post-Skeletron is actually the stage where the Guide recommends jungling, which is quite funny considering that he recommends specifically fighting Queen Bee after the evil boss without considering Skeletron there.
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RandomDuckNerd
Skeletron
Melee is not in any of the worst spots
Also summoner is here 4 times that is just so not cool relogic
Mecha_
Golem
You missed the last word. If that 98-100% difference was only focused on the difference between the two scores then that score is relatively bad compared to the other. Bad is just a negative word. Anyway, I think this debate is kinda silly considering I just wanted to point out some things about ranger people might not have known. >w>
Opinions are doing their thing again.
I'm not saying it is, I was just commenting on ammo types and underused weapons.
I suppose that's right. What I failed to mention is that ranger gets a lot of convenience and ease of play style.
Sure, classes like Mage and Melee shred enemies, but mages have to deal with low defense and mana reservation, and melee, well... I was going to say lack of range but most late hardmode tank weapons are ranged enough.
Ranger gets a lot of... Range. And a good balance between defense and offense.There are too many factors (and opinions) to say "this class is the best at this time of the game because," but I don't expect anybody to create a "democratic poll" or anything.
I suppose, in all I'm just saying "I think that ___ could be better considering ___."
Opinions.
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Shyguymask
Golem
Gaps in Defense within non-Melee armor don't make a major difference. There basically isn't really a difference in survivability when it comes to Defense with Spectre Armor Vs. Shroomite Armor. Because Defense is exponential in its effectiveness & needs to be stacked to make a great effects, only with Melee armor (especially with Warding) you start seeing a major difference. And when dealing with survivability in general, Mage got Spectre Hood for healing equivalent to a Greater Healing Potion every 5 seconds, easily beating Ranger in that aspect. When I speak of Mage's particularly high damage potential in Post-Golem, that is also taking mana into account. If it had infinite mana, it would just dominate even further while requiring even less preparation & attention.I suppose that's right. What I failed to mention is that ranger gets a lot of convenience and ease of play style.
Sure, classes like Mage and Melee shred enemies, but mages have to deal with low defense and mana reservation, and melee, well... I was going to say lack of range but most late hardmode tank weapons are ranged enough.
There are too many factors (and opinions) to say "this class is the best at this time of the game because," but I don't expect anybody to create a "democratic poll" or anything.
I suppose, in all I'm just saying "I think that ___ could be better considering ___."
Opinions.
Kellam Yoshikage
Terrarian
Small correction, defense is not exponential in any form. Exponential scaling generally refers to a constant increase in a given stat leading to a constant relative marginal benefit, like if +10 defense were to always give 1.2x survivability or something and 100 defense was 6.2x as hard to kill as 0 defense. Instead, defense is subtractive - and I use that term to distinguish from additive. Additive stacking, like with damage, has constant absolute marginal benefits, but the relative marginal benefit decreases. Subtractive stacking is additive in a sense - the operation is the same - but I change the term because here, increasing defense leads to increasing relative marginal benefits, despite constant absolute marginal benefits. I bring this up because I think subtractive stacking as a term is both more accurate and more intuitive as long as the distinction is made. Melee speed, despite decreasing a stat, scales additively, because it is decreased according to 1/(1 + bonuses) rather than 1 - bonuses. This makes it clear that (in a continuous approximation, ignoring the melee speed tick) melee speed will on average always provide the same increase in attacks per second and thus DPS, while the relative marginal contribution decreases.
It is sometimes notable that once your defense hits enemy damage * 0.85, the marginal benefit of defense starts dropping substantially as any damage rolls that fall below defense get rounded to 1 and defense stops affecting them. In practice, though, if you can reach that defense threshold the enemy will really struggle to meaningfully threaten you anyway.
It is sometimes notable that once your defense hits enemy damage * 0.85, the marginal benefit of defense starts dropping substantially as any damage rolls that fall below defense get rounded to 1 and defense stops affecting them. In practice, though, if you can reach that defense threshold the enemy will really struggle to meaningfully threaten you anyway.
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Shyguymask
Golem
Honestly, all this stuff kind of makes my head dizzy and I really just use the word "Exponential" to simply refer to something that becomes more potent at an increasing pace the more you add to it or the longer it goes. Like how Google describes it as "(of an increase) becoming more and more rapid." The increase in impact Defense makes becomes more and more rapid the more you add to it.
J Bame
Terrarian
Say it's master mode and you are facing something that deals 100 damage.
You equip an item that adds 5 defense, this makes you take 95 damage now. This is a 5% damage decrease, barely noticeable.
You equip the same item, but now you also had 90 defense before you equipped the item. You went from taking 10 damage to taking 5. Equipping this item ended up being a 50% damage decrease now.
Now let's say you had 95 defense instead. You went from taking 5 damage to taking 0, rounded up to 1. That 5 defense just made you 5 times tankier now.
I dont know if this type of scaling is "exponential" but i think that word gets the point across.
You equip an item that adds 5 defense, this makes you take 95 damage now. This is a 5% damage decrease, barely noticeable.
You equip the same item, but now you also had 90 defense before you equipped the item. You went from taking 10 damage to taking 5. Equipping this item ended up being a 50% damage decrease now.
Now let's say you had 95 defense instead. You went from taking 5 damage to taking 0, rounded up to 1. That 5 defense just made you 5 times tankier now.
I dont know if this type of scaling is "exponential" but i think that word gets the point across.
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
defense grows linearly, but it can feel like it has exponential effects since each point is more valuable than the last. it's just one of those cases where you describe something slightly incorrectly so it becomes easier to understand.
for what it's worth i think both exponential and linear are applicable here, but i think the most accurate way to describe defense investment would be "rewarding"
while the stat and damage calculations themselves are linear, when compared to other stat investments you get better returns. the average player struggling with a boss is going to notice taking 20-28 less damage per hit a lot easier than they are critting 20~28% more often or getting an extra 20~28% damage modifier attached onto their already existing damage modifier
the only time you won't notice what defense is doing is if it's a massive attack that's going to demolish you anyway (phantasmal deathray, empress charge, contact damage in legendary) or if its an attack that does 1 damage. however, if its an attack that deals 5 damage after everything you've done? you will notice that, especially if the attack started out as 35-40.
i won't sit here and yap your face off about defense though since it's pretty commonly agreed to be the best stat due to how brutally effective its reforges are compared to others though, y'all definitely way better than i am at block game here. i just think that, for the common user, it is much easier to explain "this stat is more rewarding the more you invest in it" by simply saying "it's exponential"
for what it's worth i think both exponential and linear are applicable here, but i think the most accurate way to describe defense investment would be "rewarding"
while the stat and damage calculations themselves are linear, when compared to other stat investments you get better returns. the average player struggling with a boss is going to notice taking 20-28 less damage per hit a lot easier than they are critting 20~28% more often or getting an extra 20~28% damage modifier attached onto their already existing damage modifier
the only time you won't notice what defense is doing is if it's a massive attack that's going to demolish you anyway (phantasmal deathray, empress charge, contact damage in legendary) or if its an attack that does 1 damage. however, if its an attack that deals 5 damage after everything you've done? you will notice that, especially if the attack started out as 35-40.
i won't sit here and yap your face off about defense though since it's pretty commonly agreed to be the best stat due to how brutally effective its reforges are compared to others though, y'all definitely way better than i am at block game here. i just think that, for the common user, it is much easier to explain "this stat is more rewarding the more you invest in it" by simply saying "it's exponential"
Kellam Yoshikage
Terrarian
I gave the term I use in the post, though, subtractive. I guess I shot myself in the foot again by being too wordy.
Additive is things like damage, melee speed, and building speed. You add away from 0, each bonus is relatively weaker than the last.
Exponential is, uh, specifically the separate damage reduction categories like beetle endurance with paladin shield. Each bonus is always the exact same relative benefit regardless of circumstance, even if what you're tanking is Destroyer head or EoL dash. They're multiplied together separately.
Subtractive is how I differentiate things like the subtractive damage stacking sources, melee speed, and defense. Here you're subtracting towards 0, giving the opposite dynamic compared to damage and making the last point the most important. This is actually the hardest form of stacking to balance, because it's hard to get a middleground between defense letting you completely defang the target vs an optimized defense build only cutting damage down by a third or half like against deathray.
I've seen one game that apparently really hated defense tanking, there a completely optimized defense build would on average only reduce damage by about 20%, with a ton of opportunity cost. That game is not Terraria, but the defensive stacking is why people that don't have context for the damage numbers in the game can think it's bad. If it was exponential, and 100 defense would, say, make you survive 3.3x as many hits in any circumstance, it would be a very easy to understand value proposition. Here, full master Warding would be 1.4x bulk, again without needing to worry about context. Instead, new players considering defense have to consider it in comparison to enemy damage values they don't know yet, or just experiment, or trust the general consensus that defense is scaled favorably. The resulting dynamic of how defense affects the game is also different, because subtractive is better against low damage numbers from lasers and worse against high damage numbers from big damage hits you should never get hit by. So, I guess that part is easier to balance.
Anyways, this is mostly just me talking about my own use of terms, subtractive isn't commonly used as a term outside of me and I want to change that because I think it gets the point across better.
Additive is things like damage, melee speed, and building speed. You add away from 0, each bonus is relatively weaker than the last.
Exponential is, uh, specifically the separate damage reduction categories like beetle endurance with paladin shield. Each bonus is always the exact same relative benefit regardless of circumstance, even if what you're tanking is Destroyer head or EoL dash. They're multiplied together separately.
Subtractive is how I differentiate things like the subtractive damage stacking sources, melee speed, and defense. Here you're subtracting towards 0, giving the opposite dynamic compared to damage and making the last point the most important. This is actually the hardest form of stacking to balance, because it's hard to get a middleground between defense letting you completely defang the target vs an optimized defense build only cutting damage down by a third or half like against deathray.
I've seen one game that apparently really hated defense tanking, there a completely optimized defense build would on average only reduce damage by about 20%, with a ton of opportunity cost. That game is not Terraria, but the defensive stacking is why people that don't have context for the damage numbers in the game can think it's bad. If it was exponential, and 100 defense would, say, make you survive 3.3x as many hits in any circumstance, it would be a very easy to understand value proposition. Here, full master Warding would be 1.4x bulk, again without needing to worry about context. Instead, new players considering defense have to consider it in comparison to enemy damage values they don't know yet, or just experiment, or trust the general consensus that defense is scaled favorably. The resulting dynamic of how defense affects the game is also different, because subtractive is better against low damage numbers from lasers and worse against high damage numbers from big damage hits you should never get hit by. So, I guess that part is easier to balance.
Anyways, this is mostly just me talking about my own use of terms, subtractive isn't commonly used as a term outside of me and I want to change that because I think it gets the point across better.
Mecha_
Golem
net dmg = ⌊attack dmg - def × factor⌋
This is the formula for defense in terraria. Factor means the difficulty, where classic is 0.5, expert is 0.75, and master is 1.
Plug in the numbers and you have yourself the total damage reduction.
If you want to go further, you could calculate enemy DPS by chucking in i-frames and seconds into the equation.
This is the formula for defense in terraria. Factor means the difficulty, where classic is 0.5, expert is 0.75, and master is 1.
Plug in the numbers and you have yourself the total damage reduction.
If you want to go further, you could calculate enemy DPS by chucking in i-frames and seconds into the equation.
Im_ConfuzzledCobalt🥐🌳🐿
Plantera
I'd like to make a counter argument for the pre-golem stage, and all of the ones after it.
Sure, Terraprisma has a low aggro range, but when you're in range, It's basically the Zenith but summoner. And usually the Terraprisma is aggro'd, as you have to be close to be able to land hits with your whip. With a decent damage-based load-out, I can usually beat Moon Lord in like, a minute and a half or less, without any crazy loadouts. With the best damage based load-outs obtainable, normally moon Lord dies in less than a minute. (And before anyone fact-checks me, I'm guesstimating as I don't measure the time)
Yes, you could argue it's not the best for ML, but it's DEFINITELY the best for Golem & LC, literally ATOMIZING THEM IN LIKE 10-20 SECONDS EACH!
Sure, Terraprisma has a low aggro range, but when you're in range, It's basically the Zenith but summoner. And usually the Terraprisma is aggro'd, as you have to be close to be able to land hits with your whip. With a decent damage-based load-out, I can usually beat Moon Lord in like, a minute and a half or less, without any crazy loadouts. With the best damage based load-outs obtainable, normally moon Lord dies in less than a minute. (And before anyone fact-checks me, I'm guesstimating as I don't measure the time)
Yes, you could argue it's not the best for ML, but it's DEFINITELY the best for Golem & LC, literally ATOMIZING THEM IN LIKE 10-20 SECONDS EACH!
Dapling
Queen Bee
Zenith has no competition whatsoever. Terraprisma has lower dps than stardust dragon.
Jet-Powered Rope God🌳
Torch God
Space gun is bad if you can't aim, but against Queen Bee it's great and Skeletron good for the head, use bee gun for hands.
I've used it to Great effect even against WoF.
ML you just need Stardust Dragon and Witches broom and you win. Just go slightly offscreen and listen for the laser charge. Dragon does a ton of damage.
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