Biomes & Nature [Tobbvald's Tinkering] Necronomitron and The Dungeon

Dragrath said:
any physical traps would be impossible to add as new structures are not added at any point of progression only converted
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If you're certain of this, then that is useful information when we actually get to decide what traps we'd want to see added to the OP.
 
Dragrath said:
any physical traps would be impossible to add as new structures are not added at any point of progression only converted
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You say this as if adding what's literally just a few blocks and a bunch of wire would be very difficult. Yes, the game doesn't add "new" structures to the game as of right now, but that's just because it doesn't. That doesn't mean it can't. If anything, converting a ton of blocks to a different variety is way more taxing because of scale differences, and they follow more or less the same process, minus the fact that the traps require a bit more calculation for wire placement.

Seriously, this is literally how conversion works- remove a block, place a new one in its place. That is literally how the game handles conversions from one material to another. That's actually one MORE step than placing a new structure. AND, the game already generates new blocks on a regular basis through Obsidian, Honey Blocks, Crispy Honey Blocks (they create new blocks as liquids are not considered tiles by the game), Grass, Vines, Thorns, Icicles, etc. Not very complicated.

In short, from a player's perspective it may sound outrageous and impossible, but from a programmer's perspective it's actually hilariously simple. It is completely possible to port over the dungeon's trap generation from worldgen and tweak it to be applied midgame. You probable wouldn't even notice because it's only modifying a few hundred blocks instead of thousands of them. (For anyone wondering why moving into hardmode tends to make the game run slower, both during the process and after it, this is why- when you beat the wall of flesh, the game converts thousands of blocks to either Ebonstone, Pearlstone, or Crimstone, which result in two operations per block- one to remove the block and one to put a new one in it's place. And then you have thousands of infectious blocks that are now collectively doing thousands of infection ticks a second, which is where the dent in the framerate in hardmode comes from.)
 
Tobbvald said:
In fact, implementation would most likely be super-easy, since the only really big changes are generation-related, not even some fancy gimmick or twist to it, just a generation coinciding with the generation of Light and Dark. And implementing bosses have proven not so difficult either since we happen to have loads of them already. A huge hole in the map you say? Wouldn't you say that hardmode skybiome is an a little bit more pressing issue in that regard, since it covers approximately half of the entire open buildingspace available to players during the course of the entire second half of game thanks to the no-clipping Wyverns, as opposed to the Dungeon, which takes up only a margin. Please define "Too much" as I really can't see any real major change whatsoever.

New biomes isn't even a topic for debate on this particular thread, for that, visit either the portfolio or the Contagion-thread itself.

New traps I don't even see what could possibly be in the way, blockwise or entitywise.

New enemies: -At this point, why are you even posting in the suggestion forum at all?

And as a matter of fact, this idea won't change progression whatsoever, it will clarify it and expand it onwards, not breaking any existing levels.

Regarding that side-note though, I am curious to know what you mean with "fu".
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I Misread the part about the contagion dungeon, but i can provide a rebuttal for the other parts.
  • Yea, there is a fancy gimmick (you kinda danced around it.) Firstly, dungeon brick is modified to match the biome type. Not too hard to do, but not too easy. Secondly, the game has to store a copy of the original dungeon (for the trace cleaning,) and a system has to be put in store to decide where and how the traps are placed. Also, the game has to decide how to handle chests, npcs and other important things in the dungeon (this includes any poor saps that happen to be in the dungeon during the WOF fight!)
  • Also, this is something that i forgot to mention, but the paladin dropping the key to the chamber seems like an incredible battle against RNG!
  • You can build in the sky, wyverns are easily dealt with. Much more easily dealt with than blocks that cant be removed.
  • And yes. Implementing bosses is a pretty darn difficult task. The number of bosses currently in the game doesn't justify it. You are suggesting a boss with 3 different first phases that needs to be heavily balanced (after all, you don't get to choose what version of him that you get to fight, and it would be ridiculous to have a final boss influence what type of world people will go with.) But don't don't get me wrong, that boss has to be the coolest part of any suggestion that I have seen yet. It would possibly be better balanced if it would cycle through first phase parts ever 1/3 of its health.
  • New traps require balance, and an idea in the first place.
  • We already have new appearances for post Plantera enemies! Not that the sprites don't look cool, or that they couldn't be changed.
 
Zombie said:
I Misread the part about the contagion dungeon, but i can provide a rebuttal for the other parts.
  • Yea, there is a fancy gimmick (you kinda danced around it.) Firstly, dungeon brick is modified to match the biome type. Not too hard to do, but not too easy. Secondly, the game has to store a copy of the original dungeon (for the trace cleaning,) and a system has to be put in store to decide where and how the traps are placed. Also, the game has to decide how to handle chests, npcs and other important things in the dungeon (this includes any poor saps that happen to be in the dungeon during the WOF fight!)
  • Also, this is something that i forgot to mention, but the paladin dropping the key to the chamber seems like an incredible battle against RNG!
  • You can build in the sky, wyverns are easily dealt with. Much more easily dealt with than blocks that cant be removed.
  • And yes. Implementing bosses is a pretty darn difficult task. The number of bosses currently in the game doesn't justify it. You are suggesting a boss with 3 different first phases that needs to be heavily balanced (after all, you don't get to choose what version of him that you get to fight, and it would be ridiculous to have a final boss influence what type of world people will go with.) But don't don't get me wrong, that boss has to be the coolest part of any suggestion that I have seen yet. It would possibly be better balanced if it would cycle through first phase parts ever 1/3 of its health.
  • New traps require balance, and an idea in the first place.
  • We already have new appearances for post Plantera enemies! Not that the sprites don't look cool, or that they couldn't be changed.
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Ok, fair enough, re-rendering the dungeon is something new, but not necessarily something particularly difficult, that would require an actual developer's vote. -And if some poor soul is in the dungeon at the time of re-generation, then that will be something that person has to deal with. What that person was doing in the dungeon and not helping out with WoF is beyond me though... <.<

Leaving progression up to RNG is already a thing, The Voodoo Demon, Plantera's bulbs and the finding of the Lihzard in a large world are all separate examples of this trend. And I don't think that the drop will be an issue, since any sensible player grinds for the other loot of the dungeon at that point anyways. Even so I could at least bump up the drop chance a bit, depending on people's opinions.

Here you are the one dancing around the point, mining around in the dungeon is one thing, building a base that gets flooded with semi-dangerous enemies without any way of stopping it is another. I find it far easier to accept the most deadly spot on the map as the place where you shouldn't build or manipulate unnecessarily rather than the upper half of the world map.

-Here I don't even get what you're trying to say. Just responding -yes to a -no doesn't make it any more true in any direction of the debate, provide me with hard evidence that adding one more boss somehow tips the scale overboard. Balance is never an issue, it comes naturally with time, and yes, you do get to choose which version you will fight, for it is predetermined the moment the game tells you it's either making the world evil, bloody or rot. Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't see the issues you see in it.

Balance is again, not really an issue, and judging by the discussion had just before this one we were all leaning towards adding traps of entity-format rather than wiring and blocks, things in similar fashion to the blazing wheels and ball and chains, this would also have the added benefit of reducing the generation-process severely for not having to handle trap/wire placement of that degree, and preventing players from tinkering with it or even knowing where to expect them since they will swap places every now and then.

The new appearance of the post-plantera skeletons doesn't fully suit each individual dungeon-type the way I wish them to, replacing blue bones in any other world than corruption would be as simple as excluding them from that npc-list, or even just pallet-swap them and keep the stats. The end result would be much more appetizing for those of us that think blue bones belong in the blue dungeon.
 
Tobbvald, I love you.

I see few issues with this suggestion, although they're issues better left to the developers to iron out. Stats and whatnot.

Especially love the Necronomicon reference. <3
 
Henix_Aurorus said:
You say this as if adding what's literally just a few blocks and a bunch of wire would be very difficult. Yes, the game doesn't add "new" structures to the game as of right now, but that's just because it doesn't. That doesn't mean it can't. If anything, converting a ton of blocks to a different variety is way more taxing because of scale differences, and they follow more or less the same process, minus the fact that the traps require a bit more calculation for wire placement.

Seriously, this is literally how conversion works- remove a block, place a new one in its place. That is literally how the game handles conversions from one material to another. That's actually one MORE step than placing a new structure. AND, the game already generates new blocks on a regular basis through Obsidian, Honey Blocks, Crispy Honey Blocks (they create new blocks as liquids are not considered tiles by the game), Grass, Vines, Thorns, Icicles, etc. Not very complicated.

In short, from a player's perspective it may sound outrageous and impossible, but from a programmer's perspective it's actually hilariously simple. It is completely possible to port over the dungeon's trap generation from worldgen and tweak it to be applied midgame. You probable wouldn't even notice because it's only modifying a few hundred blocks instead of thousands of them. (For anyone wondering why moving into hardmode tends to make the game run slower, both during the process and after it, this is why- when you beat the wall of flesh, the game converts thousands of blocks to either Ebonstone, Pearlstone, or Crimstone, which result in two operations per block- one to remove the block and one to put a new one in it's place. And then you have thousands of infectious blocks that are now collectively doing thousands of infection ticks a second, which is where the dent in the framerate in hardmode comes from.)
Click to expand...
I was going by precedent so far nothing new has been added but it may work out The downside is the traps could easily be disarmed and used by the player so I still support enemy traps(as long as they have their own spawn cap for when we want to farm the dungeon for hardmode gear...
 
Zombie said:
I Misread the part about the contagion dungeon, but i can provide a rebuttal for the other parts.
  1. Yea, there is a fancy gimmick (you kinda danced around it.) Firstly, dungeon brick is modified to match the biome type. Not too hard to do, but not too easy. Secondly, the game has to store a copy of the original dungeon (for the trace cleaning,) and a system has to be put in store to decide where and how the traps are placed. Also, the game has to decide how to handle chests, npcs and other important things in the dungeon (this includes any poor saps that happen to be in the dungeon during the WOF fight!)
  2. Also, this is something that i forgot to mention, but the paladin dropping the key to the chamber seems like an incredible battle against RNG!
  3. You can build in the sky, wyverns are easily dealt with. Much more easily dealt with than blocks that cant be removed.
  4. And yes. Implementing bosses is a pretty darn difficult task. The number of bosses currently in the game doesn't justify it. You are suggesting a boss with 3 different first phases that needs to be heavily balanced (after all, you don't get to choose what version of him that you get to fight, and it would be ridiculous to have a final boss influence what type of world people will go with.) But don't don't get me wrong, that boss has to be the coolest part of any suggestion that I have seen yet. It would possibly be better balanced if it would cycle through first phase parts ever 1/3 of its health.
  5. New traps require balance, and an idea in the first place.
  6. We already have new appearances for post Plantera enemies! Not that the sprites don't look cool, or that they couldn't be changed.
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(I numbered your list for both of our convenience.)
  1. Actually, that isn't that hard. Find a large concentration of dungeon brick, and perform your operations in that region, OR find dungeon brick on top of natural walls and work with those. From there it's as simple as finding blocks that have open space adjacent to them and positioning the traps using that information. (It won't place traps along the outside with the latter method because the outermost layer of brick doesn't have backwall.) As for the other stuff... if you're in the dungeon when someone activates hardmode, you're basically :red: outta luck. It's not like summoning the wall is quiet.
  2. I didn't bother mentioning this earlier, but yeah, you're absolutely correct. I'm all for the Paladin dropping the key (kinda makes sense), but having it at the same droprate as its other drops would take forever. (And "Voodoo Demons do it too" isn't an excuse; they spawn more commonly than Paladins AND have a guaranteed drop.)
  3. The only problem I see with having unbreakable brick for the Dungeon is when you run into a situation where worldgen accidentally cuts off a corridor- and by that point you should've already poked a hole into there. More importantly though, I don't see you complaining about Lihzarhd being made of unbreakable brick.
  4. This area is pretty gray. You do have some degree of control, as Tobbvald said, however you're also to some degree right about the difficulty of the implementation. However, for the most part all of the phases are ones that can use existing AI, so it's actually not as hard as you make it out to be.
  5. ...your point?
  6. At this point I'd basically be mirroring what Tobbvald said.
Dragrath said:
I was going by precedent so far nothing new has been added but it may work out The downside is the traps could easily be disarmed and used by the player so I still support enemy traps(as long as they have their own spawn cap for when we want to farm the dungeon for hardmode gear...
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I already covered this issue in a previous post, where I suggested having a fourth wire type that requires special wire cutters to remove. It's also been discussed to opt for more entity traps in a similar fashion to the Blazing Wheel and Ball n' Chain.
 
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  1. The problem kinda comes in with the actual operations. Finding a large concentration of dungeon brick may be easy (albeit power consuming) but they two methods that you've suggested would be very hard to foolproof (after all, all changes are final with these unbreakable bricks! And with new traps, it requires a new placement system. there's a reason that walls of dart traps don't spawn blocking a door! And using the wall would allow the player to make permanent holes in the dungeon (that is supposed to be unbreakable.) What about the other things that I mentioned, there was more too it than the player! But on that note, its more about the handling of the players presence? Instadeath? A tp out? (That wouldn't be half bad, but you'd need a system to determine where the player should be placed. And there isn't much that you can do when you see that the wall has been summoned already.
  2. [Area Solved]
  3. It doesn't matter if you've poked a hole, it removes traces of your visit. Also, the lizard is an entire dungeon (not just a giant, empty space) made of breakable brick.
  4. This area is pretty gray. You do have some degree of control, as Tobbvald said, however you're also to some degree right about the difficulty of the implementation. However, for the most part all of the phases are ones that can use existing AI, so it's actually not as hard as you make it out to be.
  5. It's not so easy. But hey, more traps wouldn't hurt. No trouble there (in terms of the idea, atleast.)
  6. At this point, I'd be mirroring what I said.

And hey, that'd be pretty cool.
 
Zombie said:
  1. The problem kinda comes in with the actual operations. Finding a large concentration of dungeon brick may be easy (albeit power consuming) but they two methods that you've suggested would be very hard to foolproof (after all, all changes are final with these unbreakable bricks! And with new traps, it requires a new placement system. there's a reason that walls of dart traps don't spawn blocking a door! And using the wall would allow the player to make permanent holes in the dungeon (that is supposed to be unbreakable.) What about the other things that I mentioned, there was more too it than the player! But on that note, its more about the handling of the players presence? Instadeath? A tp out? (That wouldn't be half bad, but you'd need a system to determine where the player should be placed. And there isn't much that you can do when you see that the wall has been summoned already.
  2. [Area Solved]
  3. It doesn't matter if you've poked a hole, it removes traces of your visit. Also, the lizard is an entire dungeon (not just a giant, empty space) made of breakable brick.
  4. This area is pretty gray. You do have some degree of control, as Tobbvald said, however you're also to some degree right about the difficulty of the implementation. However, for the most part all of the phases are ones that can use existing AI, so it's actually not as hard as you make it out to be.
  5. It's not so easy. But hey, more traps wouldn't hurt. No trouble there (in terms of the idea, atleast.)
  6. At this point, I'd be mirroring what I said.
And hey, that'd be pretty cool.
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  1. For one, it wouldn't be as taxing as you think- something similar is already done when you enter hardmode. After all, only stone, grass, sand, and, for some dumb reason, silt, can be converted, not dirt or ores, so the game has to seek out specific block types in the stripe. Not exactly the same thing, but very close- and on a scale almost twice as large. As for the unbreakable part, I believe it's been established already (though I could be wrong on this one) that the brick would be breakable after you beat Necronomitron, or something like that- essentially making it the same thing as Lihzahrd. And again, I don't see you complaining about that. (Also, another thing to note on this topic, a bit of code could be inserted for the dungeon brick to, if it's over a natural dungeon wall, make it "unbreakable" when hardmode is activated and then remove that property when Necronomitron is defeated. And about the "there isn't much that you can do when you see that the wall has been summoned already", here's a random fun fact: When playing on a server, people tend to gang up on the Wall. And here's another: Mirror. Recall potions.)
  2. [Preserved for our sanity]
  3. It does matter, because we're talking about converting all existing dungeon brick (over natural walls, which seems to be the best bet) to an unbreakable form. (Also, a lot of the Lihzahrd IS empty space.)
  4. Uhhhh... did you mean to copy/paste my statement?
  5. Actually, I had a new idea for this particular section of this discussion- instead of placing new traps upon entering hardmode, place an inactive version of them at worldgen, which of course would be unbreakable in a similar fashion to hardmode dungeon brick, and then once Hardmode activates they become active and can start slaughtering you. :D
  6. I'm not against what you said, I just feel like having armored bones corresponding in color to the color of the dungeon would be one of those subtle touches that make a difference, just like the demon eyes with their colored varients.
 
I have now updated OP with the fact that the Chamber key is a guaranteed drop from Paladin, thanks to popular demand. Thanks a bunch for the feedback guys, keep it up!
 
Tobbvald said:
I have now updated OP with the fact that the Chamber key is a guaranteed drop from Paladin, thanks to popular demand. Thanks a bunch for the feedback guys, keep it up!
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Uhhhh... maybe moreso a 25% drop? You're likely to kill multiple before you reach the chamber, and we don't all want keys flooding our inventory. (This is coming from a guy who's run into 3 paladins at once, without the influence of a water candle- I know how many of those jerks you can run into if you're not hauling :red: through the dungeon.)

Also, having the keys not drop once the door's been unlocked (shouldn't be hard to do since there's already conditional drop rates (Moons) and it's not like there's multiple doors per world) would be nice too, both so our inventories don't get flooded afterward if we continue to stay in the dungeon to mass-murder skeletons for their drops and so it's impossible (or at least harder) to just get extra copies and go into a new world's dungeon and unlock that one's door.
 
Henix_Aurorus said:
Uhhhh... maybe moreso a 25% drop? You're likely to kill multiple before you reach the chamber, and we don't all want keys flooding our inventory. (This is coming from a guy who's run into 3 paladins at once, without the influence of a water candle- I know how many of those jerks you can run into if you're not hauling :red: through the dungeon.)

Also, having the keys not drop once the door's been unlocked (shouldn't be hard to do since there's already conditional drop rates (Moons) and it's not like there's multiple doors per world) would be nice too, both so our inventories don't get flooded afterward if we continue to stay in the dungeon to mass-murder skeletons for their drops and so it's impossible (or at least harder) to just get extra copies and go into a new world's dungeon and unlock that one's door.
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Those are good points, I just figured that since everyone made such a deal out of it that it would be best to leave no room for chance, but putting it like that would be much better. I'll hold off on changing again until I see some more reactions to it.
 
DestroyerOfTheDestroyer said:
You could make it so that just the summoning area is unbreakable.
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Yeah, you could convert all of the dungeon, but make the summoning/boss fight area into an even stronger form of brick that is unbreakable.

As for the rest of the dungeon, it could be like the Lizahrd and the Picksaw. You just wouldn't be able to break the summoning area.
 
Darqfalls said:
Yeah, you could convert all of the dungeon, but make the summoning/boss fight area into an even stronger form of brick that is unbreakable.

As for the rest of the dungeon, it could be like the Lizahrd and the Picksaw. You just wouldn't be able to break the summoning area.
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This is basically what I was kind of saying, and it makes the most sense.

Also, an interesting idea that just occurred to me- hardmode dungeon skeletons should spawn in small quantities in a neutral state in the summon room in easymode and hardmode (prior to beating Planty). Because that'd just be a nice touch, and would give you a bit of a hint as to what's to come.
 
Henix_Aurorus said:
This is basically what I was kind of saying, and it makes the most sense.

Also, an interesting idea that just occurred to me- hardmode dungeon skeletons should spawn in small quantities in a neutral state in the summon room in easymode and hardmode (prior to beating Planty). Because that'd just be a nice touch, and would give you a bit of a hint as to what's to come.
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Good idea! The first time we found the Lihzard, and then its inhabitants was so atmospheric and tense, didn't help that we managed to glitch one through the door by mistake!

But yeah, right now I'm busy spriting for the upcomming suggestion, but whenever I feel that I have time for it I will consider changing the mechanics so that once Necronomitron has been defeated one time the walls will revert back to their more worn state and once again be breakable, no special pick required. The inner chamber will not revert, as it was never broken in the first place.
 
MarioKart7z said:
wow! i still prefer the wall of steel as a final boss... but as always, 9001% support
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This wouldn't be a final boss though, only semifinal. -And personally I really can't see a palett-swap as final boss, that would be kinda bad to be honest... Glad you like my idea though!
 
Tobbvald said:
Good idea! The first time we found the Lihzard, and then its inhabitants was so atmospheric and tense, didn't help that we managed to glitch one through the door by mistake!

But yeah, right now I'm busy spriting for the upcomming suggestion, but whenever I feel that I have time for it I will consider changing the mechanics so that once Necronomitron has been defeated one time the walls will revert back to their more worn state and once again be breakable, no special pick required. The inner chamber will not revert, as it was never broken in the first place.
Click to expand...

Another excellent idea.
 
Tobbvald said:
This wouldn't be a final boss though, only semifinal. -And personally I really can't see a palett-swap as final boss, that would be kinda bad to be honest... Glad you like my idea though!
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oh maybe inside the summoning chamber there could be special walls which prevents you from using the rod of discord (which is also important else you could skip getting the key)
and you also could make that after you defeat the necronomitron a lot of new chests spawn in the dungeon which can be opened only with a chamber keys, and the drop rate of chamber keys decreases drastically (from 100% to 10%, but they will drop 2-3 keys everytime instead of 1)
 
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