Betsy vs. Duke Fishron

[Toxophilite [East]]

Playing on Master Mode difficulty has forced me to approach Terraria in a very different way than I normally would. This being the case, I've come to find myself looking at Betsy & Duke Fishron as forking paths of progression. I want to see what others have to say on the matter before giving all of my reasons for coming to this conclusion, but I will ask some other questions that may help with eking-out a more definitive reply from you all.

Let's start with some basics:

1. Both Bosses have the exact same health pool as one-another, but Betsy obviously has less attack power & defense.
2. Both Bosses are optional methods of progression & don't require being defeated for the player to move forward.
3. Both Bosses have have several unique difficulty tiers, Betsy has more, but either Bosses' transformations or modes being better or harder are debatable?
4. Both Bosses drop high-tier Wings, it can be argued that Duke Fishron's wings are marginally better, but it can still, somewhat be debated.
5. Both Boss fights have to be played almost perfectly to win, any big mistake in either fight is extremely tough to recover from.

Let's discuss!!

 

[J Bame]

Betsy, by herself, is the easiest boss in the game. She deals almost no damage with any of her attacks, has a huge hitbox compared to anything in the game, has super easy patterns, and half of her source of damage (On Fire!) is countered by a common potion.

However, it is literally impossible to fight Betsy outside of the last wave of OOA, which, well, spams Birds and Drakins that are headed towards your Crystal. So essentially the fight against her is a DPS test where you have to deal 75000 damage to a giant, flying Target Dummy as fast as you can before you get overwhelmed by Birds and Drakins. If your gear is good enough for this, you'll be fine. If you are undergeared, though, there is nothing you can do to prevent the Crystal from eventually dying to the enemies. There is no skill here, just bring good gear.

Fishron is a boss who can ruin your day with Sharknados, however that is literally the only thing he can do that is a threat to you. The rest is just destructible projectiles or flat charge attacks that are easy to avoid with just a dash. The fancy third phase is actually easier than the second since he loses the only attack that was any threat to you (the Nados) and replaces it with just the plain charges, this time at a set pattern (1 charge, teleport behind you; 2 charges, teleport behind you; 3 charges, teleport behind you; repeat from the beggining). He's relatively aggressive in his attacks compared to other bosses so you'll probably get caught off-guard and die the first few times, but eventually you'll get used to him and he'll turn out to be one of the easiest bosses in the game.

The important factor here is that Fishron is skill-based, not gear-based like Betsy. You can beat him easily with Pre-Hardmode gear if you want, but Betsy will be impossible or extremely hard without very good Post-Golem gear.

Now comparing the drops:
* Fishron has two broken weapons (Razorblade and Tsunami) that are equal if not better than some Fragment tier weapons, two decent ones (Flairon, Bubble Gun) and one mediocre (Tempest Staff).
* Betsy has one good weapon (Aerial Bane, objectively worse than Tsunami though), one decent (Betsy's Wrath, sounds amazing on paper but on practice it's just too gimmicky to be very useful), and rest is mediocre (Flying Dragon, Sky Dragon's Fury). As for Defender medal stuff, Valhalla Chestplate/Greaves and Dark Artist's Leggings are pretty nice, the other armors are pretty decent but the sentries are bad.
* As for which wings are better, the answer is neither as they both have different purposes.

In a world where Razorblade and Tsunami are balanced Betsy ends up having overall better drops since those armors are really nice, but right now that's not the case so Fishron ends up having better drops.

TLDR: Fishron is easy and has a pair of broken drops, Betsy's drops are more balanced but she varies between nearly impossible and average difficulty depending on your gear.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Betsy, by herself, is the easiest boss in the game...and half of her source of damage (On Fire!) is countered by a common potion.

I'm liking your point of view so far, I wasn't expecting to get a person who thinks certain Bosses are trivial until much later. This is a great start & what I was hoping for, as I feel it'll be the most honest reply.

However, it is literally impossible to fight Betsy outside of the last wave of OOA...If your gear is good enough for this, you'll be fine. If you are undergeared, though, there is nothing you can do to prevent the Crystal from eventually dying to the enemies. There is no skill here, just bring good gear.

My opinion on this is slightly different, as I see this fight as a Tower Defense. Say for example, there was a well-equipped Militia attacking your home. Skill is great, but if you aren't equipped to fight an army of invaders, you won't be able to protect the people you care about. Defending a Tower/ Homestead isn't the same as a Duel or Stand-off. I won't argue if Tower Defense is a skill-check or not, but I would agree, it's probably impossible to protect innocent villagers, if you're only one person & they are attacking them instead of you.

Fishron is a boss who can ruin your day with Sharknados, however that is literally the only thing he can do that is a threat to you...you'll probably get caught off-guard and die the first few times, but eventually you'll get used to him and he'll turn out to be one of the easiest bosses in the game.

I like this response, because in 1.3.5, it was debatable (& somewhat agreed up) that Fishron was the hardest Boss in the game, Moon Lord coming in second place. You're opinion of him being one of the easiest is extremely interesting.

The important factor here is that Fishron is skill-based, not gear-based like Betsy. You can beat him easily with Pre-Hardmode gear if you want, but Betsy will be impossible or extremely hard without very good Post-Golem gear.

Agreed, that's what I find interesting about these two Bosses when compared. They're are so different, but also very similar in many ways.

Now comparing the drops:
* Fishron has two broken weapons (Razorblade and Tsunami) that are equal if not better than some Fragment tier weapons, two decent ones (Flairon, Bubble Gun) and one mediocre (Tempest Staff).
* Betsy has one good weapon (Aerial Bane, objectively worse than Tsunami though), one decent (Betsy's Wrath, sounds amazing on paper but on practice it's just too gimmicky to be very useful), and rest is mediocre (Flying Dragon, Sky Dragon's Fury). As for Defender medal stuff, Valhalla Chestplate/Greaves and Dark Artist's Leggings are pretty nice, the other armors are pretty decent but the sentries are bad.
* As for which wings are better, the answer is neither as they both have different purposes.

I personally find Flying Dragon very useful, but I also use North Pole as an alt. Sky Dragon's Fury has a lot of untapped potential IMHO, but I'd have to test it in an organic play-through to confirm my suspicions. I don't necessarily disagree with any of this though, as Tsunami & Razorblade are unmatched DPS monsters.

In a world where Razorblade and Tsunami are balanced Betsy ends up having overall better drops since those armors are really nice, but right now that's not the case so Fishron ends up having better drops.

TLDR: Fishron is easy and has a pair of broken drops, Betsy's drops are more balanced but she varies between nearly impossible and average difficulty depending on your gear.

In my experience, Fishron is a Boss who needs to be played against perfectly, especially on Master Mode; there's certain ideal places you wanna be depending on his transformation/ current form. For example, if you get clipped by a Sharknado at the wrong time, even if they are dissipating, & he happens to go into his final transformation, you die. Unless you rely on Cobalt Shield as a mandatory accessory, escaping that death-loop is extremely tough to do. Even at 88 defense, one hit from The Duke can do anywhere from 50-60% damage to your total health (with buffs). I like that you probably don't agree though, I wanna present more information much later, depending on what gets added to the discussion.

 

[J Bame]

I like this response, because in 1.3.5, it was debatable (& somewhat agreed up) that Fishron was the hardest Boss in the game, Moon Lord coming in second place. You're opinion of him being one of the easiest is extremely interesting.

In my experience in this community, the opinion on Fishron is either that he's extremely easy or extremely hard with no inbetween.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I like this response, because in 1.3.5, it was debatable (& somewhat agreed up) that Fishron was the hardest Boss in the game, Moon Lord coming in second place. You're opinion of him being one of the easiest is extremely interesting.

even in 1.3.5 duke fishron was way too easy for how good his weapons were, most of the time I'd kill him before Plantera because I genuinely found Plantera to be the harder boss. He has high stats but he is extremely predictable. The same more or less applies to empress of light 'high stats very predictable'.


When it comes to wings I think betsy wings are the best pre moonlord wings, the acceleration you get from hovering is so high that you don't need to use dash accessories once you get it and the soaring insignia to make sure you can always start hovering. The vertical speed of betsy wings is also the same as fishron's

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

In my experience in this community, the opinion on Fishron is either that he's extremely easy or extremely hard with no inbetween.

Well, as a player who likes to create my own strategies (I normally don't watch how-to videos), there are several or so reasons I would consider Duke Fishron a harder Boss than most. When I say something like, "He has to be played against perfectly unless...", these are the Skill Checks I'm referring to.

• To comfortably keep pace with, or outrun The Duke, you'll need an aerial speed of 55-60 mph.
• The Sharknados will at times, completely cut-off ground mobility, meaning you'll have to take the fight to the air.
• As I said earlier, if you happen to get clipped by Sharknado or it's Minions in Phase 3, without a Cobalt Shield or better, you basically die.
• I'm not 100% aware of Dukes patterns, but, I do know that Sharknados can force you to break form or have you make detours, & the Ocean Biome does have a wall.
• In Master Mode, to my knowledge, in Phase 3, an aerial speed of 55-60 mph is essential.

even in 1.3.5 duke fishron was way too easy for how good his weapons were, most of the time I'd kill him before Plantera because I genuinely found Plantera to be the harder boss. He has high stats but he is extremely predictable. The same more or less applies to empress of light 'high stats very predictable'.

I find both Bosses about equal in difficulty, but if I remember correctly, Plantera can be cheesed in Phase 2, which is why I'd personally say The Duke has the edge, I have yet to discover an effective method to cheese Duke Fishron.

When it comes to wings I think betsy wings are the best pre moonlord wings, the acceleration you get from hovering is so high that you don't need to use dash accessories once you get it and the soaring insignia to make sure you can always start hovering. The vertical speed of betsy wings is also the same as fishron's

You know, I had this feeling the two wings were about equal, depending on the build you're going for. I won't argue against this, I do like Betsy's Wings, but I don't think they suit my play-style very well.

 

[qwerty3.14]

To comfortably keep pace with, or outrun The Duke, you'll need an aerial speed of 55-60 mph.

Frog leg helps with getting up quickly, slime mount helps with getting down quickly. I even got away with using a horseshoe balloon instead of wings a few times.

In Master Mode, to my knowledge, in Phase 3, an aerial speed of 55-60 mph is essential.

Shield of Cthulu is extremely useful for the third phase if you dash at the right time you'll bounce right off of the Duke and take no damage.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Frog leg helps with getting up quickly, slime mount helps with getting down quickly. I even got away with using a horseshoe balloon instead of wings a few times.

Interesting... that seems like a strategy that requires quite a bit of dexterity. Now I'm curious, what load-out/ approach do you typically use to defeat Betsy (Master Mode especially)? This will be extremely helpful information to confirm or disprove a theory I have concerning these two Bosses.

Shield of Cthulu is extremely useful for the third phase if you dash at the right time you'll bounce right off of the Duke and take no damage.

This seem like a great strategy! I've never really used the Shield of Cthulu outside of PvP, but it does seem ideal for Duke Fishron, considering how fast his hitbox/ hurtboxes must appear & disappear. Question: does the Shield allow you to also evade Sharknados, in the event you're sure they're gonna clip you, in addition, will you avoid damage completely?

Edit: In addition to the question having to do with Betsy, what's the minimum amount, as far as min-maxing is concerned, that you've been able to take down OOA (I'll even accept theory-crafting in this case, as I've killed Betsy, but also failed to protect the Crystal numerous times)?

 

[qwerty3.14]

Interesting... that seems like a strategy that requires quite a bit of dexterity. Now I'm curious, what load-out/ approach do you typically use to defeat Betsy (Master Mode especially)? This will be extremely helpful information to confirm or disprove a theory I have concerning these two Bosses.

I usually save up 100 defender medals before beating golem so that I can buy the ballista staff (or whatever the highest tier is called) right away. Ballista's are by far the best of the OOA sentries from my experince, they won't help you with killing betsy but they'll give you more time by delaying the ground army.


The weapons I usually use is tsunmai with ichor arrows + xeno staff Betsy is basically a dps race. Prioritse offense, I think on my first master mode playthrough at this point I was using spooky armor with papyrus scarab + necro scroll + destroyer + celstial shell, + 3 movement accessories menacing on everything.

I struggled more on my second master mode playthrough I was doing a mage focus run but I felt like I had to switch to ranger with tsunami on the last wave just to get enough dps. Maybye I just suck at mage? I didn't have the xeno staff this time if that means anything. Also I found out it's a bad idea to use a aggro reducing accesory as betsy will completly ignore the player and just focus on the crystal.

Oh there was also another master mode run I did in multiplayer... it was kind of weird, one player using shroomite stealth stayed near the crystal and basically delayed the hordes indefinitely while the other two used aggro accesories to lure betsy far far away... for some reason it took a very long time to kill betsy I think it was lag not registering hits? I was using the xenopopper because "I was so tired of using duke fishron weapons every playthrough"

In single player betsy feels more like it a test for your dps build rather than a skillful fight like with duke fishron or empress.

This seem like a great strategy! I've never really used the Shield of Cthulu outside of PvP, but it does seem ideal for Duke Fishron, considering how fast his hitbox/ hurtboxes must appear & disappear. Question: does the Shield allow you to also evade Sharknados, in the event you're sure they're gonna clip you, in addition, will you avoid damage completely?

I've actually never had problems with the sharkrons, I guess it's because they are effected by gravity and I've always found duke fishron to be a vertically oriented fight.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I usually save up 100 defender medals before beating golem...

I don't really have a preferred superior Sentry in mind (I think they're all great depending on your build), but I do agree with your choice of saving up on Metals. In Master Mode, I feel like that approach is almost essential, or you're likely gonna be in for a long day beating OOA.

The weapons I usually use is tsunmai with ichor arrows + xeno staff...was using spooky armor with papyrus scarab + necro scroll + destroyer + celstial shell, + 3 movement accessories menacing on everything.

This is similar to my own approach, I was mostly wondering, with your perceived skill-level, if there was some kind of minimalist approach that I was unaware of. I guess we can universally agree, at least for now, that Betsy is a massive DPS check & there's likely no real way around it.

I struggled more on my second master mode playthrough I was doing a mage focus run but I felt like I had to switch to ranger with tsunami on the last wave just to get enough dps...I didn't have the xeno staff this time if that means anything. Also I found out it's a bad idea to use a aggro reducing accesory as betsy will completly ignore the player and just focus on the crystal.

I think beating Betsy with a Mage Build may require doing certain things "out-of-order"? I won't spoil it here, but I have a pretty good idea what it is you're likely expected to do.

Oh there was also another master mode run I did in multiplayer... it was kind of weird, one player using shroomite stealth stayed near the crystal and basically delayed the hordes indefinitely while the other two used aggro accesories to lure betsy far far away...I was using the xenopopper because "I was so tired of using duke fishron weapons every playthrough"

In single player betsy feels more like it a test for your dps build rather than a skillful fight like with duke fishron or empress.

I've been messing around with some ideas here & there, just to see if Betsy can/ could be killed much sooner/ earlier, but I haven't found anything reliable yet. I've beaten Her only once with a minimalist build & only twice with the Crystal still being destroyed at the end. This information was extremely useful, much thanks!