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In-depth Hardmode weapon tier list

Shyguymask

Terrarian
Obsidian armor actually got a significantly worse time than spooky almost 50% longer, probably because the dragon itself is much weaker which firecracker's tag scales off of.
This is the only one I'm not buying. Obsidian activates Firecracker explosions more often, and Dragon's damage grows more slower with each additional segment. Everytime I've used Obsidian both for a master mode playthrough and for DPS testing in godmode, spooky did the same or only slightly higher DPS. Of course I'm saying this with the mindset that whipping is done as much as possible, since Spooky has a significant advantage when it comes to "Passive" DPS.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
This is the only one I'm not buying. Obsidian activates Firecracker explosions more often, and Dragon's damage grows more slower with each additional segment. Everytime I've used Obsidian both for a master mode playthrough and for DPS testing in godmode, spooky did the same or only slightly higher DPS. Of course I'm saying this with the mindset that whipping is done as much as possible, since Spooky has a significant advantage when it comes to "Passive" DPS.
You've seen how I fight empress, staying in range with firecracker + obsidian armor is not an issue. I can test again if you want.

Edit: I also went into god mode and tested against moonlrod, spooky was much faster.

Edit 2: Ok so retested obsidian and spooky.
1624161807582.png


Acording to the wiki stardust dragon gets extra damage on the first summon, but every segment after that adds the same amount of damage, so the 3rd segment adds just as much as the 2nd, the 4th the same as the 3rd and so on.
1624162106361.png



Can you get some kill times with the armors? I really don't like relying on the dps meter, it tends to fluctuate a lot.
 
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AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Is that... 30 thousand single target DPS?!
Yes, in fact, it is my 8-10th attempt. The key is to be lucky with red rockets and use hovering (betsy/cel. starboard) + insignia. By the way, I used frozen shield, this can be additionlally swapped to damage enblem.

Look at this: Celebration MK2 killed ML in 13. 9sec

And at this: the Zenith needs 15.3 sec

Why not move Celebration MK2 to S+? I mean in is also an ultimate option for ranged annigilating of solar pillar and digs faster than the DCU
 
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Coleyohley

Terrarian
Why not move Celebration MK2 to S+? I mean in is also an ultimate option for ranged annigilating of solar pillar and digs faster than the DCU
All post-Moon Lord weapons are essentially just toys since there is no new threat to deal with. None of them actually help you progress through the game, so none of them have a use beyond simply playing around with them.

It would be like ranking the First Fractal against other weapons. You’re never going to get FF during your playthrough, so ranking it is serves no purpose.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
All post-Moon Lord weapons are essentially just toys since there is no new threat to deal with. None of them actually help you progress through the game, so none of them have a use beyond simply playing around with them.
They are, but we need to rank them, since they are in this list. As for me, it is also very interesting to find out which weapon/class is the most powerful in general.
There also is some (not many, but still) practical reasons: money farming with max efficiency (e. g. for the clentaminator). Biome management also benefits from fast digging, easier weaponry collections from other worlds like evil biome chests, as they cannot be generated both simultaneously (slaughterrig mobs/bosses as fast as possible). For some people – killing daytime EoL

Of course, pre-ML stuff is also wery well suited for that (Stardust Dragon, Charged Blaster Cannon, etc)

Currently I can't beat Melee, Zenith scores 32-35k in the FM event, Mk2 22-25, Last Prism 19-24. As for PM, the last prism (and phantasm + Luminite) are better than everything else (excl. Zenith)
(In theory, when tmodloader 1.4 is released, it will be a reliable way of assessing the performance vs some modded bosses (Overseer, Ragnarök, Providence etc.)) If mods will not introduce their own balance changes, like Calamity does
 

Shyguymask

Terrarian
Going to be honest I keep thinking about it and I really can't be bothered to do this. I'm not in the mood to download some program, figure out how to use it, play terraria for like two hours fighting the same boss, open my editor when I'm tired of editing after finishing some new video for my channel just now, render it, upload it to my second channel and then link it here with numbers and stuff. Especially since "Summoner vs. ranger" or "which Summoner build is best for ML" isn't even the topic I was interested about (rising kaleidoscope to S or S+).

Only thing that interests me right now is testing Spooky vs. Obsidian for EoL with firecracker/dragon, I will do that later today
 

Dreadnautilus5000

Brain of Cthulhu
All post-Moon Lord weapons are essentially just toys since there is no new threat to deal with. None of them actually help you progress through the game, so none of them have a use beyond simply playing around with them.

It would be like ranking the First Fractal against other weapons. You’re never going to get FF during your playthrough, so ranking it is serves no purpose.
I agree with that, but Baconfry still ranked them. He also put Last Prism and SDMG above Celebration MK2, even though in BironGaming's top 10 weapons for Moon Lord videos they both took longer to kill ML.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Going to be honest I keep thinking about it and I really can't be bothered to do this. I'm not in the mood to download some program, figure out how to use it, play terraria for like two hours fighting the same boss, open my editor when I'm tired of editing after finishing some new video for my channel just now, render it, upload it to my second channel and then link it here with numbers and stuff. Especially since "Summoner vs. ranger" or "which Summoner build is best for ML" isn't even the topic I was interested about (rising kaleidoscope to S or S+).

Only thing that interests me right now is testing Spooky vs. Obsidian for EoL with firecracker/dragon, I will do that later today
That's fine, I am continiously practising ML currently and testing cells + stacking/phantasm vs dragon and trying to maximize their efficiency
Current results are close to Querty3.14's, so I'll publish them only when my skill is sufficient to beat them at least by 5-10%
Results will be with and without godmode to determine skill-dependancy
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Going to be honest I keep thinking about it and I really can't be bothered to do this. I'm not in the mood to download some program, figure out how to use it, play terraria for like two hours fighting the same boss, open my editor when I'm tired of editing after finishing some new video for my channel just now, render it, upload it to my second channel and then link it here with numbers and stuff. Especially since "Summoner vs. ranger" or "which Summoner build is best for ML" isn't even the topic I was interested about (rising kaleidoscope to S or S+).

Only thing that interests me right now is testing Spooky vs. Obsidian for EoL with firecracker/dragon, I will do that later today
The reason it progessed to testing moonlord builds was because one of your arguments for moving kaleidiscope to S tier was that it was good with the stardust cell staff. When people told you that wasn't good against moonlord you objected. So I decided to test it myself and I compared it to other builds to see if was good.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Yet nobody is having issues with Blade Staff being ranked S+ despite being one of the most complicated weapons in the game, requiring whip stacking to be on par or outperform other "Meta" weapons.
It is S+ not because of micro-managenet possiblilites, but rather:
– excellent stunlocking with well fed buff in any build.
– with Durendal (only)it is one of the best choices vs OOA T2
– also with ichored Durendal-only it is good in Plantera fight
– excellent mech bosses performance (except the Destroyer)
– simply one out of two best summons with best whip synergies at their stage


I am 99% sure that Baconfry ranked it this way without taking its stacked performance against EoL/ Duke at post-golem stage into consideration

Blades are great at their normal progression stage for most people.

I guess that to avoid misunderstanding, we should differenciate "guidance tier lists" for all players and "competitive tier lists" for skilled ones
I am sure this tier list belongs to the 1st category
 
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Shyguymask

Terrarian
So I played around with EoL for a bit with both Spooky and Obsidian, and Spooky outperforming Obsidian in DPS is slightly correct. Not because they have a large difference in raw power, but because Obsidian's minion of choice (Dragon) is frustratingly unstable and inconsistent.

1624223666275.png


1624223675547.png


Expert mode. Full menacing, same accessories for both: Soaring Insignia, Betsy's Wings, Berserker's Glove, Celestial Stone, Necromantic Scroll, Papyrus Scarab. Whips were on Legendary, summons were on Mythical/Demonic (+15% damage) (not because I think it's better than Ruthless, they came up first while reforging and it was good enough). I played with Obsidian + Firecracker the most, and Spooky + Firecracker the least (for a good reason, I got a perfect-ish run with very good dragon AI quickly). Kill time started on first hit and ended at the frame where the health bar disappears after EoL died

Worst to best, top being the worst and bottom being the best (in seconds):

Obsidian - Dragon/Firecracker/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 27,37

Obsidian - Dragon/Firecracker/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 27,28

Obsidian - Dragon/Firecracker/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 27,19

Spooky - Cells/Kaleidoscope/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 25,35

Spooky - Cells/Kaleidoscope/Dark Harvest/Durendal/Besty's Wrath (one use of Betsy's): 25,12

(Died) Obsidian - Dragon/Firecracker/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 22,35~ (Otherwise perfect reckless run with good Dragon AI that ended with me dying and EoL left at 222 hp, was like 1-3 frames away from killing her)

Spooky - Cells/Kaleidoscope/Dark Harvest/Durendal/Besty's Wrath (two uses of Betsy's): 21,35

Spooky - Dragon/Firecracker/Dark Harvest/Durendal: 18,12 (Super risky and I don't think it's worth, but WTF LOL)
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
So I played around with EoL for a bit with both Spooky and Obsidian, and Spooky outperforming Obsidian in DPS is slightly correct. Not because they have a large difference in raw power, but because Obsidian's minion of choice (Dragon) is frustratingly unstable and inconsistent.

Let's do some math, that should be more reliable than the dragon's AI.
92% melee speed (harvest time + celestial shell + ale + stuffed + glove)
1624231321719.png


Yeah that gap seems smaller than i thought.
 
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AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Is there any technical information about how many extra projectiles stardust cells shoot when using a whip or any other weapon? Just wondering if something exceptionally fast can make them shoot even more actively


The similar build scored:
28,66 (1720 frames) seconds for master mode (7th slot with summoner emblem)
19,85 (1191 frames) seconds for normal (without papyrus scarab)
 
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qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Is there any technical information about how many extra projectiles stardust cells shoot when using a whip or any other weapon? Just wondering if something exceptionally fast can make them shoot even more actively
Checked source code Star cell basicly has 2 attacks they shoot the same projectile though.

First one is fairly basic, the cells have a counter that when at 0 they are able to fire at an enemy. Upon doing so the counter is set to 1, then then every frame after that the is a 1/3 chance of the counter increasing by 1 and 2/3 chance it increases by 2. Once the counter equals or exceeds 60 the counter is reset to 0 allowing it to attacks gain. Since the minion is deciding to shoot this it will use standard minion targeting logic.

So basically averages out to 1.67 attacks per second.


Next is the one that can be activated by other attacks. This attack uses a separate counter from the other attack. If this counter is less than or equal to 0 there is a 50% chance that an attack will cause the cell to attack what just got hit. The counter will then randomly be set to 30, 40, 50, or 60. This counter reduces by 1 every frame.

So basicly this ability take an average of 45 frames to recharge. Or 1.33 attacks per second with constant fire rate.



With both attacks combined it should be an average of 3 hits per second.

For comparison.
Xeno minions fire an average of 3 times per second.
Tempest minions fire an average of 2 times per second.
 

Mathbrush1

Terrarian
Checked source code Star cell basicly has 2 attacks they shoot the same projectile though.

First one is fairly basic, the cells have a counter that when at 0 they are able to fire at an enemy. Upon doing so the counter is set to 1, then then every frame after that the is a 1/3 chance of the counter increasing by 1 and 2/3 chance it increases by 2. Once the counter equals or exceeds 60 the counter is reset to 0 allowing it to attacks gain. Since the minion is deciding to shoot this it will use standard minion targeting logic.

So basically averages out to 1.67 attacks per second.


Next is the one that can be activated by other attacks. This attack uses a separate counter from the other attack. If this counter is less than or equal to 0 there is a 50% chance that an attack will cause the cell to attack what just got hit. The counter will then randomly be set to 30, 40, 50, or 60. This counter reduces by 1 every frame.

So basicly this ability take an average of 45 frames to recharge. Or 1.33 attacks per second with constant fire rate.



With both attacks combined it should be an average of 3 hits per second.

For comparison.
Xeno minions fire an average of 3 times per second.
Tempest minions fire an average of 2 times per second.
Hmmm, this sounds like people who test just the stardust cells alone (without a weapon) are only seeing 55% of the true damage, unless iFrames are messing with it. Maybe that explains why Stardust Cells+KC did the same damage as Stardust Dragon+KC in the Empress of Light tests?

(Of course the firecracker + Stardust Dragon was better than either but it's still interesting)
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Hmmm, this sounds like people who test just the stardust cells alone (without a weapon) are only seeing 55% of the true damage, unless iFrames are messing with it. Maybe that explains why Stardust Cells+KC did the same damage as Stardust Dragon+KC in the Empress of Light tests?

(Of course the firecracker + Stardust Dragon was better than either but it's still interesting)
That's also probably because a hoard of minions synergises better with kaleidoscope's tag than 1 big dragon does. If you looked at the morning star tests dragon did a bit better than cell but cell closed the gap when kaleidoscope was used.

However keep in mind kaleidoscope is somewhat weak by the time you get the stardust minions, I did some more Empress tests for this thread and phantasm + dragon always outperformed kaleidoscope + cells.

Also in my moonlord tests the shorter range on whips was a very noticeable downside. In my empress tests the only way firecracker + dragon outperformed phantasm + dragon was when using full spooky armor.
 
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