Flubman
Terrarian
You could argue that features like these can't really be secrets with the Internet existing.
Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Leinfors
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That's a bit disappointing, but if that's what its designed to be then I guess there's no helping it.
Techdude594
Skeletron Prime
It's understandable, its easy to get 20% increased melee speed through other means anyways. Some of the whips were given faster use times as well so I'm sure that will help.
Flubman
Terrarian
I don't know if this would be outside the scope of this discussion, but I have some feedback on the Rubblemaker. It's definitely a great addition, but I feel like it might be slightly incomplete. Would there be a way to allow it to place stalagmites and stalactites? I'm sure builders would appreciate that.
zkksch
Terrarian
Holy arrows nerf made them useless on master mode because of how armor works. They hard to craft and even in perfect conditions (static target so both stars can hit) they deal hardly more (usually even less) damage than ichor arrows. So my suggestion here is make stars ignore enemy defense (part or even all defense with adjusting their damage).
Also quiver nerf made it not worth to farm. Without damage buff it gives some not that important buffs, so it just worse version of ranger emblem. My suggestion is replace damage buff from it with dynamic damage buff depending on distance projectile travelled, at least it will be something unique.
Also quiver nerf made it not worth to farm. Without damage buff it gives some not that important buffs, so it just worse version of ranger emblem. My suggestion is replace damage buff from it with dynamic damage buff depending on distance projectile travelled, at least it will be something unique.
Shyguymask
Retinazer
It's not some huge difference to the point enemy armor suddenly negates the stars' damage. With how Holy Arrows dealt crazy DPS under the right circumstances in 1.4.3, a nerf from 50% to 33% doesn't suddenly lower the damage per hit to a point where it's noticeably further reduced by enemy armor. Not even close. Besides, I don't even think there's any enemies that gets more defense in Master Mode.
It's also bizarre to dismiss Quivers as "just worse version of ranger emblem" by completing ignoring its velocity increase effect.
Aside from a few exceptions, Master mode does not increase enemy defense, and enemy defense does not follow the Classic/Expert/Master progression that makes it more potent in higher difficulties, that's only player defense.
Quivers still give damage, its just not proportionally as much as before. Given that they stack with Ranger Emblem, you can still pursue a high damage build if you wish, its simply less potent.
Coolqwerts
Skeletron Prime
Just a question since whip speed bonuses are multiplicative with melee speed bonuses was there ever consideration of making the whip speed bonuses additive as a nerf? Semi-similar to how range damage calculations have changed. It makes sense to me personally to make the change and would lessen the double edged sword behind buffing the melee speed of an armor originally built for use with the melee class.
Zenithmaker
Terrarian
In everything and celebratemk10 seed,the jungle mimic will drop terra toilet,which means you can get broken hero sword before plantera(by throw the toilet into aether)and make Terra blade.It's extremely out of balance.
If is possible to remove the drops of Terra toilet,or it will drop unless the plantera has been beaten
If is possible to remove the drops of Terra toilet,or it will drop unless the plantera has been beaten
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Coolqwerts
Skeletron Prime
I mean to be fair, Celebration MK was kinda meant to be the easier seed however in this case scenario, I'd just lock it behind Plantera especially with the added versatility of its use in invasions such as Old Ones Army T2(now viable with wave cooldown skipping).
Edit: Yeah I just read it and yeah if you mean by make it not transform in the water till plantera is defeated I agree.
Edit: Yeah I just read it and yeah if you mean by make it not transform in the water till plantera is defeated I agree.
preadatordetector
Terrarian
I feel that shimmer could or should have unique fishing drops. I'd have loved to have a shimmer crate with some alien-type theme to it.
seviper_enthusiast
Terrarian
I’ve been thinking a lot about all of the balancing changes, and I’m a huge fan of most of them. My only real concern now is early hard mode summoner.
I think the nerf to obsidian armor is 100% warranted. I did master mode summoner and basically killed WoF in my sleep, without any potions or buffs other than maybe a fruit buff. I’m not the biggest expert around but I think the nerf was healthy, especially when combined with the buff to tiki armor. I’m also okay with the firecracker nerf and the sanguine nerf. I love how lots of the other staffs and whips were given love, and that makes summoner feel fresh and I like how there’s more than just like 2 options for builds. It makes summoner feel like all the other classes a bit more.
My concern comes from the spider equipment. Now that obsidian armor is much weaker, spider is all the more appealing option. The armor wasn’t touched which I think is okay, but in my opinion the spider staff is completely unusable. The spider AI is horrible underground and they get stuck in return mode so easily. Fighting queen slime with it to get the blade staff was a NIGHTMARE, at least for me, using the spider staff. The other options are Abigail’s flower, which is pretty fine with the firecracker for a lot of early hard mode except in the queen slime fight, where the swarms completely clown on it, the sanguine staff, which is sort of in a to be determined phase at the moment, and the pirate staff, which if I’m not mistaken wasn’t buffed.
I think to fully round out the summoner experience a lot of the balance changes were spot on. More late hard mode options, balancing the more broken pre hard mode options a healthy amount, and giving a little extra love to stardust armor (and the pillar which I must say I love the changes there too). In my opinion though I think the spider AI needs to be better, and/or the pirate staff needs to be more viable, to help the queen slime/mech boss area feel a little more solid like it does with the other classes. I also think mayyyyyybe the bee armor could be slightly buffed, but I’m not super sure about that so yeah
This is just my opinion on the summon balances. I’m not a pro, but I have at least 700 hours and I play primarily summoner so I’m not exactly a noob either. I think most of them were fair, but maybe consider looking at the previously mentioned things to help the class be really nailed. I love you Relogic
I think the nerf to obsidian armor is 100% warranted. I did master mode summoner and basically killed WoF in my sleep, without any potions or buffs other than maybe a fruit buff. I’m not the biggest expert around but I think the nerf was healthy, especially when combined with the buff to tiki armor. I’m also okay with the firecracker nerf and the sanguine nerf. I love how lots of the other staffs and whips were given love, and that makes summoner feel fresh and I like how there’s more than just like 2 options for builds. It makes summoner feel like all the other classes a bit more.
My concern comes from the spider equipment. Now that obsidian armor is much weaker, spider is all the more appealing option. The armor wasn’t touched which I think is okay, but in my opinion the spider staff is completely unusable. The spider AI is horrible underground and they get stuck in return mode so easily. Fighting queen slime with it to get the blade staff was a NIGHTMARE, at least for me, using the spider staff. The other options are Abigail’s flower, which is pretty fine with the firecracker for a lot of early hard mode except in the queen slime fight, where the swarms completely clown on it, the sanguine staff, which is sort of in a to be determined phase at the moment, and the pirate staff, which if I’m not mistaken wasn’t buffed.
I think to fully round out the summoner experience a lot of the balance changes were spot on. More late hard mode options, balancing the more broken pre hard mode options a healthy amount, and giving a little extra love to stardust armor (and the pillar which I must say I love the changes there too). In my opinion though I think the spider AI needs to be better, and/or the pirate staff needs to be more viable, to help the queen slime/mech boss area feel a little more solid like it does with the other classes. I also think mayyyyyybe the bee armor could be slightly buffed, but I’m not super sure about that so yeah
This is just my opinion on the summon balances. I’m not a pro, but I have at least 700 hours and I play primarily summoner so I’m not exactly a noob either. I think most of them were fair, but maybe consider looking at the previously mentioned things to help the class be really nailed. I love you Relogic
zkksch
Terrarian
Ok, maybe I misunderstood how it works, but it doesn't change the fact that holy arrows useless now. Even on "perfect" battles for holy arrows (destroyer, golem) there are arrows that perfoms better or at least same (hellfire for destroyer, venom for golem and it's not assumptions, I tested it) and easier to craft.
Quiver other bonuses not that useful. Speed increase not working (or maybe almost not working, hard to say by eye) on most important hardmode arrows (ichor/chlorophyte/venom), ammo usage reduction is just nice addition not main feature. I won't be so against it current state if quiver was sold by town NPC or crafted, but it has low drop rate from not most common enemy, so it should give me a reason to waste time on farming it, not just "10% more damage".
Cazmatism
Skeletron
I just tested this. Tsunami, when landing crits of what look to be 200-250, has holy stars that land 30-40 crits on EoL. I think it's at least worth some research
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J Bame
Terrarian
Would be helpful to see these tests, we will go in circles forever by just calculating the DPS instead of seeing it in practice.
Cazmatism
Skeletron
To be fair, it does work on the arrows that need it the most. Still looks like a bug worth looking into, this happens with archery potions as well.
The quivers seem to become rather niche with that considered, functioning well only as low priority dps boosts
On the other topic, I did some simple tests on holy vs ichor arrows on EoL, and I am more convinced that striking a fine balance has not been achieved yet and holy arrows may need some sort of defense negation.
Following tests use Unreal Tsunami. Loadout (provided in attachments) has full menacing, witch broom additionally used to dodge
EoL tests:
Holy arrow (trying to hit as many stars as possible): 49 seconds
Ichor arrow: 51 seconds
Holy arrows (high accuracy with arrows themselves but not trying to optimise the star hitrate): 70 seconds
Surely the much riskier playstyle adopted on the first test should have a bigger reward than being roughly 4% better than the same loadout with different ammunition that also happens to be easier to get?
This is not a conclusive test whatsoever, but what I'm trying to get at here is that a holy arrow change should be considered.
Attachments
zkksch
Terrarian
I'm to lazy to record or even retry this, but I can describe what happened first time
For destroyer I used daedalus. Hellfire arrows should be worse on paper because it multiarrow bow and sometime arrows just don't deal damage. But destroyer is big, and even if arrow skiped one segment it deals damage to other. DPS almost same all the time, but the key feature that made hellfire arrows kill destroyer faster was hitting its intersections, when I hit them hellfire arrows made ~2x dps of holy arrows. Also holy arrows spawn to much drones, stars are killing all those drones, but I took more damage anyway with holy arrows. And small benefit of hellfire arrows: you can abuse destroyer spawn point with them, holy arrows don't have pierce so attacking destroyer spawn point makes no sense.
For golem I used tsunami. It depends on your battle strategy. Without killing hands kill time almost same, slight difference but I think it's because of my dodging. Worth to mention that holy arrows almost destroyed hands too. If you kill hands holy arrows obviously faster, but fight itself harder because you're damaging head too fast before killing hands. In result for golem holy arrows are still good, but not that good to bother crafting them.
Also tested vs fishron with chlorophyte shotbow and ichor arrows. Actually not that bad as I expected vs such fast target, but ichor arrows are still slightly better. One of holy arrows advantages is killing bubbles. Also with holy arrows you should use much more dangerous strategy to make fishron fly vertically so more stars can hit.
ShinyLine
Official Terrarian
In my last playthrough (which started on v1.4.3.6 and ended on v1.4.4.2), I used Abigail + Firecracker Vs. Queen Slime, Pre-Mechanical Bosses (Post v1.4.4, I updated before killing WoF), and I can say she's simply the best minion around that time against her. With Queen Slime's movement speed nerf, Abigail is able to catch up with her in Phase 1 and even more in Phase 2 with 7 Minion Slots. You probably were not dodging her minions that much, because moving in a big open area above her is the best strategy to focus all damage on her while still dodging the small projectiles. Even moving horizontally with her while she's jumping in Phase 1, while still flying up and down to dodge the projectiles from the slimes left behind, helps a lot.
Yeah, maybe it could give you the Honey Buff and spawn some bees when you get hit, and maybe a defense increase to be the actual counterpart to Obsidian Armor (Glass Cannon Summoner Vs. Tanky Summoner), and with all of that, there could already be a reason at all to upgrade to Bee Armor; after all, Tanky Summoner is the safest way to play with the Class, even in Master Mode.I also think mayyyyyybe the bee armor could be slightly buffed, but I’m not super sure about that so yeah
You shouldn't be testing Tsunami against Golem, it is balanced AFTER him for a reason.
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Shyguymask
Retinazer
To be fair, it's EoL who has a large 50-60 defense, and stars dealing that much damage every hit is still potent considering it's now only 33% of the base damage of the weapon. You can also still inflict Ichor with a secondary weapon very easily to lessen the impact of EoL's defense as well. So even EoL's defense doesn't make a big impact in practice.
J Bame
Terrarian
Adding to Holy Arrow discussion, i tested them against the Twins on Expert Mode, comparing them against Ichor Arrows.
Add to this that Holy also have some crowd control mixed in unlike Ichor arrows, and that Ichor Arrows fall off if you can inflict Ichor with something else, and it looks like Holy are fine in their current state.
Naturally the option with higher pierce does better against Destroyer, nothing surprising here. Hellfire and Jester's are getting their DPS tripled, quintupled or even higher the more segments they hit, if Holy could compete with THAT then it would prove that their max single target DPS would be EXTREMELY high.
Saying Quivers are +10% damage is a lie too, they dont actually affect Arrow damage so in practice they even less than a proper 10% damage increase.
I agree they were nerfed too harshly, even a Putrid Scent has more damage now so the only use it has is being extraUpdates for Holy Arrows. If i had to make a change i'd either make that 10% damage increase apply to the arrows OR make the multiplier work on every arrow so that this accessory can finally do exactly what the tooltip says it does.
- Unreal Adamantite repeater with holy: Fight lasted 136 seconds
- Unreal Adamantite Repeater with Ichor: 134 seconds
- Unreal Adamantite Repeater with holy, sidearm to inflict ichor: 127 seconds
- Unreforged Onyx Blaster with Crystal Bullets, sidearm to inflict ichor: 120 seconds.
Add to this that Holy also have some crowd control mixed in unlike Ichor arrows, and that Ichor Arrows fall off if you can inflict Ichor with something else, and it looks like Holy are fine in their current state.
Naturally the option with higher pierce does better against Destroyer, nothing surprising here. Hellfire and Jester's are getting their DPS tripled, quintupled or even higher the more segments they hit, if Holy could compete with THAT then it would prove that their max single target DPS would be EXTREMELY high.
Oh no, the Speed increase works fine now. Not the velocity multiplier, the 10% base velocity increase that im pretty sure you didnt know existed until you read this comment.
Saying Quivers are +10% damage is a lie too, they dont actually affect Arrow damage so in practice they even less than a proper 10% damage increase.
I agree they were nerfed too harshly, even a Putrid Scent has more damage now so the only use it has is being extraUpdates for Holy Arrows. If i had to make a change i'd either make that 10% damage increase apply to the arrows OR make the multiplier work on every arrow so that this accessory can finally do exactly what the tooltip says it does.
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