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A hardmode version of the torch god (+new summoner weapon)

zenjammin

Terrarian
we all know and love the torch god, but wouldn't it be awesome if he came back in hardmode? When you went back to fight him the torch projectiles would be faster and act kind of like the empress of lights projectiles.
He would be placed at early hardmode. At the beginning you would be given the darkness effect and you would see a freaky face made out of torch light. It would then turn into said projectiles chase you around. (The face would look something like pumpkings face, but just the light of it).

Drops: it would drop a summoners weapon that summoned "torches" (kind of like a sentry) that fought for you, but dissapear rather quickly. It would summon multiple of them (quite a few) and they would shoot fire at enimies. (Soz i dont have any good concept art but if the devs saw this before 1.4.1 they might wanna add it in)
 

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Scratch Lunin

Eater of Worlds
Some changes could possibly be made, but I'll let the Terraria experts discuss it.
Seems like a neat concept nonetheless.
 

Sora_92

Terrarian
Torch God is actually a very interesting and unique boss, because it's entirelly focusing on avoiding the projectiles and not on fighting (well, depends on where the arena is, some random mobs might spawn or wander in, but that's not really part of the "boss fight")

Which is why you might would choose things allowing for better mobility for the "battle", and can ignore things that only affect attack or related things.

I'm not good at bullet hells - I still couldn't defeat EoL yet either (though it's true I only tried two times so far. lacewings are kinda rare...) But torch god is not that hard, and it's quite fun, being a very different "boss fight" than any others.
You don't have to attack, just dodge for a time, and if you managed, you will earn the torch god's favor.

similar "boss battles" could be quite fun too, where you don't actually have to fight, just dodge some projectiles or something. But I'm not quite sure what would be fitting rewards for it...

It should be something that is useful regardless of class. Therefore not sure about it being a minion, even if all classes tend to use minions - because then it brings up the other question, that they get outclassed with later-game minions.
Something fitting could be an acessory that provides light, like the untrabright helmet, but few would waste a slot for such in hardmode, I think...

But how about a light pet? something like "lesser torch-god" or dunno. (although since we didn't seen how the torch god looks like - if he/she/it actually has a physical form anyway) so, not quite sure about the looks, but it could be useful for all classes - though there are many other light pets too, so this isn't so all-around useful like the "torch god's favor".
Make it commandable like the shadow orb/wisp, to make it more useful. I dunno if the "highlight treasure" function is that necessary, but that could be included too.
Or make it so, it can be upgraded if combined with other light pets, like highlighting treasures, or providing better light. (or if it's bad to fuse pets together, since it's kinda weird, then just use some materials like ectoplasm to make it shine much brighter, etc.)
 

Sora_92

Terrarian
A light pet... perhaps a mobile form of the Torch God's Favor itself, that always counts as a "good" held torch (with the proper lighting), and can change "bad" torches to match their current biome. That would be a natural extension of the Favor.
That's an interesting idea. It could be a quite unique, and quite fitting light pet!

Though I would take out that it would change torches, or make it toggleable. Because while it could be useful, it also can be you placed said torches on purpose. For instence, I sometimes place regular torches in hell towers, because the dark-ish light of demon torches in the dark obsidian buildings is just awful, IMO. I mean, it fits the atmosphere, but you still can't see very well even though there are lots of light sources.

But that thing aside, it would be a very interesting idea to have a light pet that changes lights based on the biome, to resemble the light provided by the respective torches.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Regular torches aren't "bad" in the Underworld, nor do Demon torches give a bonus. Bone torches do give their lesser bonus, but the original Torch God's favor doesn't put them down in the Underworld. (Instead it puts them in the Dungeon, which doesn't have torch luck at all.)

ETA: That said, the Jungle has it almost as bad if you don't want everything to be green, whether or not it's green.
 

Sora_92

Terrarian
Regular torches aren't "bad" in the Underworld, nor do Demon torches give a bonus. Bone torches do give their lesser bonus, but the original Torch God's favor doesn't put them down in the Underworld. (Instead it puts them in the Dungeon, which doesn't have torch luck at all.)

ETA: That said, the Jungle has it almost as bad if you don't want everything to be green, whether or not it's green.
I'm kinda confused about it, because torch god's favor places demon torches in the underworld, so I assumed/assuming they are the "lucky" torches for the biome.

And same for bone torches for the dungeon, part based on the fact that when I use torch god's favor when discovering the dungeon, thus placing bone torches instead of regular, I usually end up with 3-4 nazars by the time I looked though the whole dungeon, as opposed to usually found none, or just 1 before, though that might be just RNG and does nothing with torch luck. Or the bone torches have a "placebo" effect that somehow still made cursed skulls drop more nazars? XD

I don't mind jungle torches that much, rather, I like their ambience, but there are areas where they just don't fit as much, so mixing in regular torches can be good.

Or there was that crimson challange I did before, where I didn't used crimson torches everwhere, but mixed in regular torches too, to lighten up the ambience a bit. I like the colors of the crimson, and crimson torches are quite nice too, but when 80%+ of your map is crimson, you might just want a bit more variety than dark-red lights everywhere XD

So, yeah, it goes for all torches, that some areas you might want to mix in regular torches, or simply use regular torches somewhere. but since there's no negative torch luck, that should be fine, I assume.


The only real problem is, that the only one capable of telling your luck is the wizard, who isn't just simply locked behind hardmode, but like all town NPCs, is quite immobile, I mean, he stays around his house, and while you can move him around by reassigning him elsewhere, that's a pain (especially with how town NPCs are mindlessly walking into lakes now to drown themselves). And it's overally not that super useful, if he tells you how lucky the area is where he's living. that's cool, but what about other places, like where you actually wanna fight things...?

It would be really-really-really, I mean, really-really-really-really-really-really-really useful to be able to tell your luck when you're on the road. like a buff icon telling it. or an information accessory like all the other gadgets making the cell phone. like how the fisherman's pocket guide tells your current fishing power.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Others have complained about the lack of luck feedback. With regards to torch luck, yes it's inconsistent, but there's some sense to it.
  • It doesn't work at all in the Dungeon and Temple, presumably because those are structures that can overlap multiple biomes.
  • Demon Torches are not actually biome torches (note that obsidian can appear anywhere from mid-caverns down), so the Underworld only gets the Bone Torch's "all other biomes" bonus.
  • Ichor and Cursed torches are "half-biome" torches, which can provide a bonus but never a penalty, because they are two of the three torches that can be used underwater, and punishing those would be nasty. The newest underwater torch, the Coral torch, only gives a penalty if it is not underwater, nor in the Ocean biome.
  • And again, the Bone torch gives a lesser bonus in any biome without a biome torch, but also includes the Ocean -- which might be an oversight, or just a nod to the Coral torch not being quite like the other Biome torches. ETA: In any case, it's good for borders.
ETA: With regards to the lack of luck feedback... on consideration I'm fine with that. "Luck" as a real-world concept normally doesn't have feedback -- you carry your lucky charm, or keep the mascot around, or do your little ritual, or whatever... and then you go do your thing and have faith, or at least hope, that you actually will be lucky. Terraria is at least giving us a few things that are both hinted in-game and documented on the wiki to bring luck, which is better than we get in the real world.
 
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Sora_92

Terrarian
@Mental Mouse
Those things are a bit odd though, because
  • In The dungeon, torch god's favor places bone torches, so you could easily assume it does that, behaving the same way as in most other biomes, placing the "lucky" torch of the biome.
  • Obsidian is not related to the underworld, but that's still the toch that appears there naturally.
    and once you have torch god's favor, it doesn't really matters anymore, what material actually makes that type of torch, since it automatically changes, when it's toggled on.
  • with negative torch luck eliminated, I'm assuming no torches give any penalty anywhere?
As for no indicator on luck, while it might be like that real life, that you can't really tell it,
In the game, the wizard can tell it. If he has the powers to tell it, why can't you aquire that ability somehow?
Plus, it's like the fisherman's pocket guide, isn't it? I have minimal knowledge about fishing in real life, but I'm assuming you won't see your fishing power anywhere either. so I think it's very similar to luck...?

This is getting a bit off topic though...
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
The "wrong" torches can't give an actual penalty, but they can cancel out a bonus you would have had from the "right" torches.

As far as the wizard giving his hints, even he only gets a general idea, and, well, the player isn't a Wizard!

For fishing, frankly the whole thing is complex enough that providing the Fish Finder is a reasonable concession to the player -- but note that while luck affects fishing, its contribution isn't shown there either. For luck, we basically have torches, gnomes, potions, and events (Windy Day or Lantern Night). The torches are the most complicated of that, and we get the Torch God to help there. I don't think we actually need a readout. It would be kinda nice if the Garden Gnome had a buff icon like Heart Lanterns etc, but even that isn't too important.

ETA: One thing I would like to see would be the Torch God prioritizing the infectious biomes last, instead of first. So when you're bumming around the Underground Desert, you get Desert torches that work whatever the infectious biomes do to the area.
 

Sora_92

Terrarian
@Mental Mouse
That's interesting. I would assumed that "no negative torch luck" means that other toches besides the lucky one simply gets ignored regarding luck. perticularly concerning the "normal" torch.

I would argue about the player not being a wizard. A mage might be not so differen, and if you run around with 200 or more mana swinging around at least a gem staff as main weapon even early game, I would consider you a mage. and you can grow much more powerful than that by late game. if you can summon a prismatic deathray of pure magical energy, why couldn't you tell how lucky you are...?

Also, yes, fishing is complex. And I don't mean the effect of luck on fishing, but there are tons of factors, so that's why if you fish, the pocket guide is extremely useful. But luck is also quite complex - even more so if toches cancel each other and the torch god doesn't even always gives you the "lucky" torch.
you have gnomes, torches (complex), potions, ladybugs (which also have gold variant which might affects luck differently), events and who knows what else...

A buff icon could be nice to help determinate the actual range of placed lucky things (gnomes, torches, etc.), but having a gadget to provide information on luck might would be more useful than that, so it both helps determinating the range of items, as well as provides information when wondering how lucky your boss arena is.

at the end of the day, RNG still can be just as awful as without luck, but it affects other things too, so it might helps taking less dmg, or dealing more dmg. and sometimes you find 5 bezoars in a single jungle expedition, but sometimes you don't find a single one through several, even though the torches are the same.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
@Mental Mouse
I would argue about the player not being a wizard.
Well, that's the thing, the player certainly can use magical items -- but as with other NPCs, the Wizard can get them stuff a player simply can't make for themself. So just as the player can buy and sell stuff, but they're not a Merchant, I'd say that being able to use magic items doesn't make the player a wizard. Rather, the Wizard NPC, like various others, represents and supplies the resources that the player *doesn't* have. The Wizard's luck messages don't correspond to the informational accessories, they're more like the Guide's hints.

you have gnomes, torches (complex), potions, ladybugs (which also have gold variant which might affects luck differently), events and who knows what else...
As far as I (or the source-divers at the wiki) know, there isn't any "what else" there, that's a complete list of the factors affecting luck. And with the walkback on torch luck, the only way to get bad luck is to kill a ladybug, leaving us looking for the best bonuses.
 
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Sora_92

Terrarian
@Mental Mouse
Of course, NPCs have many functions you can't aquire in other ways, or not very easily.
You being able to tell your luck would make the wizard's ability regarding that useless too, but then how about him selling such an item? We can argue you can't determinate your luck in pre-hardmode, since you're kind of just a normal adventurer, on the path to be "the hero". But in hardmode, you're gaining powers waaay beyond what you could ever imagined pre-hardmode. Why would it be odd to see your own luck?

The guide's hints are also a bit of an oddity. I remember I tried to read them on the very first playthrough, trying to figure out what to do, but he didn't explained how to actually build a house, and green slimes just killed the character multiple times meanwhile. So I ended up on the wiki, and after that, you rarely look up the guide's hints.
He's still very useful because of his knowledge on recipes.
It's just that you can't really chit-chat with him the start of the game that freely, so he's useless the time his hints would be the most needed. Though that might be just my opinion.

Well, even if there are no other factors regarding luck, it's still complex enough, that I think being able to see it still would be useful.
If you don't want it, don't use it. But if you want to see these stats too, it could be a nice QoL addition.

We wandered somewhat off topic though...
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Hmm, an item sold by the Wizard. How about the Crystal Ball?

BTW, the Guide's quotes had gotten obsolete and incomplete, but 1.4 revamped them.
 

Sora_92

Terrarian
Hmm, an item sold by the Wizard. How about the Crystal Ball?

BTW, the Guide's quotes had gotten obsolete and incomplete, but 1.4 revamped them.
The cystal ball has several other purposes too, so I dunno about that. Rather, it would be a new, portable item - or if you want to overcomplicate things, then a component, which can be used to craft a furniture that gives that info when you're nearby (like a grandfather clock telling the time) or crafted into portable version (like watches) with different material. if you really want to make it late game, then use ectoplasm for it, but that might be going a bit far...

As for the guide, it's not whether they're obsolate or not. But think about the situation you play the game the very first time, and you didn't checked the wiki prior. You spawn, there's a guy walking around, you talk him, and he can give you hints. "Woah! Let's read what he says!" You think, and... "Player got dissected by green slime!"
If you're a noob, and want to figure out what to do, he's almost always useless for that, because you can't really chat with him prior to having a house where you and the guide can talk safely without green slimes hopping on you...
But if you're a total noob, you might want some advices how to actually build a house...
It's quite niche, maybe, but at that time, his hints could be really useful. But you can't read them without slimes jumping on you. After that... you probably will look up the wiki, and his hints turn trivial and largely useless. that is what I think.
 
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