yup. exactly.
but what i want to say is. the concept of "scaling damage" is not completly removed
Weapons & Equip Removing the Firecracker - A New Summoner Weapon
- Thread starter sasa0axx
- Start date
but what i want to say is. the concept of "scaling damage" is not completly removed
Rezerkity
Old Man
I mean, 'just hit enemies with two weapons' sums up pretty much all combat in the entire game, right? Virtually every class is just point and click with a weapon.
i don't get what you mean really.
Shyguymask
Golem
One of these is straight up not a good setup for Moon Lord with how risky it is, and the other requires Desert Key.
It also cannot be brainless when its short range requires playing aggressively, even with Tiki Armor.
Mecha_
Golem
I don't really agree with this idea.
Leaving summoners with a post-Skeletron tier whip as they enter Hardmode isn't the best, even with a new staff. The next whip upgrade after the firecracker is the cool whip, and that can be difficult to farm (especially in expert + with an underpowered main weapon.)
The current loadout with the firecracker and imp staff is balanced because the decent whip can be used when the summon gets replaced (spiders, pirates, blades, sanguine bats etc.)
Removing the whip upgrade and buffing the summon is pointless, because the upgrade to the summon is instant and the whip is underpowered for a longer time.
Also, lifesteal is basically always bad.
Implementing this isn't needed and can't be justified because of some of the things I've said.
Leaving summoners with a post-Skeletron tier whip as they enter Hardmode isn't the best, even with a new staff. The next whip upgrade after the firecracker is the cool whip, and that can be difficult to farm (especially in expert + with an underpowered main weapon.)
The current loadout with the firecracker and imp staff is balanced because the decent whip can be used when the summon gets replaced (spiders, pirates, blades, sanguine bats etc.)
Removing the whip upgrade and buffing the summon is pointless, because the upgrade to the summon is instant and the whip is underpowered for a longer time.
Also, lifesteal is basically always bad.
Implementing this isn't needed and can't be justified because of some of the things I've said.
what do you mean "not a good setup for Moon Lord" it's littirally one of the best setups for moonlord.
Meowlegend
CelebrationMK10
He literally explained why.
Firecracker + Stardust Dragon is unreliable, impractical, inconsistent and unsafe for ML. The short range of Firecracker makes it so that it's near unusable on a boss like Moon Lord, who heavily forces you to stay away.
Shyguymask
Golem
Not everything is about raw DPS.
Short range, on one of the most fragile builds (Spooky/Tiki Armor with minion slot stacking), against a boss that is actively hostile and virtually unpredictable against close range & mid-range weaponry. Not only that, you never know if the Stardust Dragon is going to go to sleep if you want it to attack a specific part of Moon Lord.
If everything was about DPS, then Fetid would be the best Pre-Mech weapon and Bubble Gun would be the best weapon for killing Moon Lord, and so on.
personally, i use firecracker with stardust dragon for moonlord all the time. i find it more effictive for moonlord
but. even if you think firecracker is bad for moonlord. my idea still benifits that, it's not a straight nerf nor a straight buff to firecracker. it just depends on how you use it.
if you get something like.. 2 hungries + 1 terraprisma and the rest dragons. then you can stay as far away as you can and hit with khali. this is 100% better then firecraker because you don't have to hug moonlord. but you still have to be a bit close.
J Bame
Terrarian
I dont think it makes up for it on the Dragon, but more than that this is honestly a very bad way to balance it given how much people have grown to loathe Global iframes, and how many issues there are with any minion that isnt local
Prehardmode Summoner balance is slippery slope given that almost every minion uses static, balancing around shifting Global is just going backwards in several ways.
You can just nerf the multiplier instead and keep things simple.
absolutely. 27 hp in 3 seconds is 9 hp per second. That is 4 regeneration bands and almost 5 charms of myths. Summon three of these and now every class gets 30 hp per second just from being near an enemy. This is like having an automatic Vampire Knives.
The multiplier is lower than Firecracker, but unlike Firecracker this doesnt prevent me from using the multiplier alongside the immense DPS of a Phantasm. It doesnt lock you out of a main weapon and thats why its busted.
Firecracker is no more "brainlessly used" than any other whip in the game. It is, if anything, one of the most complex Whips because you have to be very mindful of the minions and items you use with it.
huh.. makes sense
you're right that dps isn't everything. the goal of this suggestion isn't to directly buff or nerf firecracker, but to encourage minion mixing instead of relying on a single setup. firecracker is simple—you whip, and minions deal boosted damage. but the hungry staff forces players to think more about their minion choices since the explosions and interactions depend on how different minions work together.
if you use it properly, it can outperform full dragons + kaleidoscope
Mille Marteaux
Empress of Light
firecracker is fine. the only "problem" with it is that it is literally the only whip that does what it does and we don't get a moon lord-tier replacement with actual range
like this range is dreadful.
if you are using firecracker setups on moon lord "all the time" then you fall into one of these camps:
a) you are a god gamer, at which point you could make anything "powerful"
b) you're playing a lot of classic mode, where the damage the moon lord deals is a lot less frightening against a base 35 defense armor, and basically anything can be "broken" in classic mode on modern day player skill levels
c) you're doing a lot of recall abuse with heart statues, autopause nurse, etc, at which point you may as well be talking about about any strategy being too strong
you are actively limiting the minion selection you have when using firecracker because you want to get as much damage out of a single minion hit as you can. this is in itself build variety and "skill expression" or whatever the latest buzzword is.
whip stacking, minion mixing, etc are honestly all higher level strategies. the average player is clicking one summon staff 10 times (because they don't know what their max minion count is) and running away from the enemy thinking that summoner is the "kiting class" and thinks that whips are too risky, trying to take an option away from power users that want to optimize their gameplay is a terrible idea.
trying to "encourage" mixing minions is never going to end well. you will always end up with one of the following results:
- the bonus is so large so you are inherently playing incorrectly if you aren't mixing minions, forcing you to use otherwise subpar minions to maximize the damage of your good ones
- the bonus is so small it doesn't matter, which leads to people asking why it was even added if it was going to be this small
other much more skilled users are chiming in on actual numerical and mechanical issues with this, but i mostly just wanted to come here to post a firecracker vs kaleidoscope graphic so we have it for future discussion until 1.4.5 happens and we run the risk of having to bin them both for stardust whip anyway
like this range is dreadful.
if you are using firecracker setups on moon lord "all the time" then you fall into one of these camps:
a) you are a god gamer, at which point you could make anything "powerful"
b) you're playing a lot of classic mode, where the damage the moon lord deals is a lot less frightening against a base 35 defense armor, and basically anything can be "broken" in classic mode on modern day player skill levels
c) you're doing a lot of recall abuse with heart statues, autopause nurse, etc, at which point you may as well be talking about about any strategy being too strong
you are actively limiting the minion selection you have when using firecracker because you want to get as much damage out of a single minion hit as you can. this is in itself build variety and "skill expression" or whatever the latest buzzword is.
"properly" is the acting word here. a random player picking a firecracker up going "pog dps pog" is going to get utterly thrashed.
whip stacking, minion mixing, etc are honestly all higher level strategies. the average player is clicking one summon staff 10 times (because they don't know what their max minion count is) and running away from the enemy thinking that summoner is the "kiting class" and thinks that whips are too risky, trying to take an option away from power users that want to optimize their gameplay is a terrible idea.
trying to "encourage" mixing minions is never going to end well. you will always end up with one of the following results:
- the bonus is so large so you are inherently playing incorrectly if you aren't mixing minions, forcing you to use otherwise subpar minions to maximize the damage of your good ones
- the bonus is so small it doesn't matter, which leads to people asking why it was even added if it was going to be this small
other much more skilled users are chiming in on actual numerical and mechanical issues with this, but i mostly just wanted to come here to post a firecracker vs kaleidoscope graphic so we have it for future discussion until 1.4.5 happens and we run the risk of having to bin them both for stardust whip anyway
do you realize that the lifesteal is only in melee mode ? (you have to be really close to enemies and even then it's not always in melee mode.) lets it's in melee more for 3 seconds with an 22 seconds cooldown
that's a fair criticism. firecracker locks you into summoner since using another weapon cancels its effect, but hungry staff wouldn't have that issue, letting you stack its bonus on top of a main weapon. maybe a solution would be to make this staff only fire when you whip your enemy?
i don't get what is bad in making this global i-frames ? it just forces people to minion-mix
no it wouldn't. just make the number balanced. and .. that's it ? why are you assuming it will be either too high or too low ?
if you're a causual player.. you can just try to find a good mix. it will be probely better then the current setup but not SOO much better to the point that not minion mixing is just wrong, but for pro players who proberly use firecracker to get maximum damage this will benifit them more.
look. if you minion mixed. (2 imps + 1 frog + 1 flinx + 1 hungry) and used spinal tap. that's littirally better dps than 5 imps + firecraker.
and. yes. the lifesteal is not THAT good. but. considering that it gives better dps when you minion mix. AND lifesteal that's a buff for summoners
this is no normal minion. it's a support minion, closer to a whip
Clockwork17
Retinazer
You aren't going to use it with pre-HM minions though. They suck compared to it,
they don't. frog staff has better dps. and the damage multiplacation is so useful with imps.
Clockwork17
Retinazer
...use spiders?
Mecha_
Golem
I feel like you're missing the point.
TLDR: You're suggesting that whip progression gets nerfed and instead suggesting a summon that gets outclassed very quickly.
Sure, the other summons don't heal the player, but that's what healing potions are made for.
As for the explosions, the whip is supposed to be a summoner's main weapon, and the actual summons are just that. Summons for damage.
hmm.. yea..
2 imps + 2 spiders + 1 hungry is better.. (1 more spider and some frogs can be added when spider armor is obtained)
