Game Mechanics Degradation of "Terraria" combat: Homing weapons

[Dire Sigma]

by "defeat" i mean reach wave 15/20 and get all the loot. and as for making fishron only fightable after the events, i would have a drop of the ice queen be a critter net that can catch truffle worms.

As stated before, the moons are OPTIONAL. making them a legitimate part of the progression system seems ridiculous at most, and adding a drop for a boss it doesn't fit with so it can be part of the hardmode progression seems silly.

 

[neoselket]

As stated before, the moons are OPTIONAL. making them a legitimate part of the progression system seems ridiculous at most, and adding a drop for a boss it doesn't fit with so it can be part of the hardmode progression seems silly.

that's like saying the pirate invasion is optional. no, it's not guaranteed to happen, but who doesn't do the moons? and the only alternative is to make duke fishron's drops weaker, they're overpowered when you get them before the moon events.

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

Although this discussion has drifted away from homing weapons and now seems to be about endgame stuff in general, it does make me wonder what the developers have done about it in 1.3. Post Plantera seems to have more balance problems then any other part of the game, with people complaining about things like life-steal making it too easy to survive, homing weapons making it too easy to fight, projectile spam which makes every slow weapon useless...

 

[Quenton]

I honestly see no point in nerfing homing weapons. There's no reason to; Those who want to challenge themselves can use whatever the heck gear they want, and pretty much all the homing weapons are end-game content, not stuff you get right off the bat (scepter).

that's like saying the pirate invasion is optional. no, it's not guaranteed to happen, but who doesn't do the moons? and the only alternative is to make duke fishron's drops weaker, they're overpowered when you get them before the moon events.

I honestly don't understand where your argument is coming from. Are you saying that because something exists, people do it? Because that's not true at all. Also, there's a pretty big difference between the pirate invasion and the moon events.

Also, as other people have pointed out, homing weapons aren't the best in the game. If you use your megashark with a bunch of chlorophyte bullets and fight the twins, you'll soon see that crystal bullets instead do a far better job at taking them out. Same goes for pretty much every hardmode boss.

 

[TheNerdiestNerd]

and the only alternative is to make duke fishron's drops weaker, they're overpowered when you get them before the moon events.

and now you are back to downgrading.
1. make up your mind!
2. i dare you to try the moon events using only the bubble gun and typhoon. both of them.
3. you have no idea how weak downgrading them as you described it would make them. 3 arrows, with only one arrow doing full damage? its regular damage may be 385, but not all the arrows register, because either it is dead before it happens, or 2 the other arrows fly over it. original damage: 385
your ideal damage (with wooden arrows)
1 wood arrow + one tsunami = 64 damage
other two arrows doing 32
64 + 64 = 128
you are seriously considering doing... doing THIS?! a measly 128 damage!

 

[FlakMaster]

I don't get the problem with the Tsunami. I guarantee that the majority of people will think it is meh if holy arrows didn't exist.

While it does do a lot of damage, it has a pretty slow velocity. And it works so well in the moon events because all of the AI either gather up at your x co-ordinate, or have stages when they are completely stationary, making them a stupidly easy target for anything to hit. If you had more enemies such as the Ice Queen supersonic stage, the Tsunami (not to mention Flairon with its projectile's limited lifespan) would lose a lot of its value.

Also, the Tsunami is pretty close to the Tactical Shotgun, barring Holy arrows. Tsunami has a base of 60 with 5 arrows, while Tactical Shotty has 29 and fires 6. Tsunami may be nearly twice as strong and fires a little bit faster, but it is also a tier above the Tactical Shotty. So it's fine as it is.

If you aren't convinced that it is fine, then look at Molten Fury vs Titanium Repeater. The Repeater has 41 base with 18usetime whereas the Molten Fury has 29 with 24usetime, but also can't auto-fire. And the tiers work the same way. People also still consider the repeaters to be underpowered. The HM ore ones anyway, I'm not sure what people think about the Shotbow. DPS-wise, the Shotbow is basically a bow variant of the Megashark.

 

[Lecic]

considering equipping both items is a buff/debuff respectively, and PEOPLE ALREADY EQUIP THE DEBUFF....

Your argument is that if you find end game items to be overpowered, you should take off your damage boosting accessories such as the destroyer emblem, yes? Those are the words you said earlier? How is purposefully nerfing yourself because you find yourself overpowered NOT a sign of overpowered weapons?

I'm don't even want to touch what you said about the lifesteal hood. You trade damage for lifesteal capability. It's not a debuff to the player.

As stated before, the moons are OPTIONAL.

Yeah, the Moons are completely optional, in the same way that all other bosses and events in the game are "optional." If you really want to, you could just spend all of your time building stuff on the surface, having never even fought the EoC.

 

[neoselket]

and now you are back to downgrading.
1. make up your mind!
2. i dare you to try the moon events using only the bubble gun and typhoon. both of them.
3. you have no idea how weak downgrading them as you described it would make them. 3 arrows, with only one arrow doing full damage? its regular damage may be 385, but not all the arrows register, because either it is dead before it happens, or 2 the other arrows fly over it. original damage: 385
your ideal damage (with wooden arrows)
1 wood arrow + one tsunami = 64 damage
other two arrows doing 32
64 + 64 = 128
you are seriously considering doing... doing THIS?! a measly 128 damage!

dude, thats wooden arrows. the weakest arrows in the game. imagine this with holy arrows. instant carnage. 128 damage is pretty high for only one click, even for endgame. terra blade does less than that. let's try the current tsunami with holy arrows:
the tsunami does 60 damage, +6 for the holy arrows, so one shot would do 66 damage. but wait, it shoots 5 arrows at once, so 6x5=30. total of 90 damage per click. but wait, each arrow shoots stars too! so each star does half the damage of bow and arrow combined. thats 66, so 33 would be how much damage each star does. 33x5=165. add that to the damage of the bow with the arrows and you get 90+165=255 damage. per click. without accessories or shroomite armor. insanely OP, even for endgame. as for "making up my mind", i'm saying that the only options to rebalance it out would be to either move fishron to post-moon, or nerf the drops. without one of those things, the drops are way op.

heres a story. once, there was a north pole. it was in 1.2.2, and it was OP. but i was fine with it because there was nothing to fight after it that you hadn't fought before. it was truly endgame. then fishron came. you can get his stuff(and most people do) BEFORE the moon events, and they are way easier to control than the north pole.

edit: apparently, i messed up. each holy arrow summons TWO stars, not one. so the damage would be even more OP.

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

You can't measure a weapons power by damage per click, that's silly. The sniper rifle can do hundreds of damage per click, but it's still far weaker than other weapons at the same tier.

 

[Lecic]

You can't measure a weapons power by damage per click, that's silly. The sniper rifle can do hundreds of damage per click, but it's still far weaker than other weapons at the same tier.

Let's do a DPS calculation, then. The formula for DPS is (damage+ammo damage)/(usetime/60).

Here's the Tsunami, with Holy Arrows. Don't forget to include the stars. I need to make some calculations beforehand due to the multiple projectiles and nature of stars.

60 + 6 = 66 damage per actual arrow. Each star does half the arrow's damage, effectively doubling damage to 128 per arrow with two stars. 128 x 5 arrows = 640 damage per shot.

(640) / (23 / 60) = ~1669 DPS.

How does that stack up against a Chain Gun with the most comparable bullet, Crystal?

34 + 8 = 42 damage per main bullet impact. Of course, we need to remember the shards. I'd say about two shards hit most of the time. Any objections to this? Each shard does 60% damage, which adds up to ~50 damage from two shards. 42 + 50 = 92 damage per shot.

(92) / (4 / 60) = 1380 DPS.

 

[Orithan]

I do think that the combat system for the game has degraded by the end of the game, but homing weapons (with the exception of Chain Gun + Chlorophyte Bullets) aren't part of the issue. While their effect makes them very powerful, they have low damage in comparison; making them weaker than other bullets (I'm looking at you, Crystal Bullets) and Chlorophyte is expensive.

 

[FlakMaster]

terra blade does less than that.

No, it does more. Take into account the beam and the impact of the sword itself.

but wait, each arrow shoots stars too! so each star does half the damage of bow and arrow combined.

You can't make the ten stars hit a single target at once. Piercing invulnerability comes into effect. That, and the actual stars are horribly inaccurate to begin with. It's only real use is the moon events.

And can we stop using the moon events for the sake of proving a weapon's potential? Those events rely on nothing but DPS for a weapon. It doesn't matter how slow or hard your weapon is to use, because you're going to hit some brain-dead enemy anyway.

By the way, if you're suggesting to nerf the Tsunami, why the hell do you not have a single problem with the North Pole, Razorpine or Blizzard Staff? North Pole and Blizzard staff is situational, but the Razorpine is the real rival here. The Razorpine also has a super fast velocity, something the Tsunami doesn't have.

Edit: The Razorpine has a base average DPS of 1080. That's all complete single-target, so you're guaranteed to have that damage.

2nd Edit:

(640) / (23 / 60) = ~1669 DPS.

(92) / (4 / 60) = 1380 DPS.

Higher theoretical DPS for slow projectiles that have drop, or lower DPS for something that fires super fast? Sounds like a fair trade-off.

 

[Lecic]

You can't make the ten stars hit a single target at once. Piercing invulnerability comes into effect. That, and the actual stars are horribly inaccurate to begin with. It's only real use is the moon events.

You raise a good point. Let's see with Ichor Arrows.

(((60 + 15) + 10 extra damage from ichor) / (23/60)) x 5 = ~1108 DPS. This is quite a bit lower than the Chaingun with Crystal Bullets.

However, my main argument against the Tsunami is that it is far superior than the Chaingun for the Moon events, which it is, when loaded with Holy Arrows.

 

[TheNerdiestNerd]

Your argument is that if you find end game items to be overpowered, you should take off your damage boosting accessories such as the destroyer emblem, yes? Those are the words you said earlier? How is purposefully nerfing yourself because you find yourself overpowered NOT a sign of overpowered weapons?

actually, equipping one is a buff.

I'm don't even want to touch what you said about the lifesteal hood. You trade damage for lifesteal capability. It's not a debuff to the player.

it debuffs damage. and by saying this, you helped my point.

Yeah, the Moons are completely optional, in the same way that all other bosses and events in the game are "optional." If you really want to, you could just spend all of your time building stuff on the surface, having never even fought the EoC.

but then you wouldnt have access to much.

 

[FlakMaster]

(((60 + 15) + 10 extra damage from ichor) / (23/60)) x 5 = ~1108 DPS. This is quite a bit lower than the Chaingun with Crystal Bullets.

For comparison's sake, the Tactical Shotgun with Crystal bullets DPS is around 1000. And that's a tier below too. The spread of that gun isn't that bad, either.

However, my main argument against the Tsunami is that it is far superior than the Chaingun for the Moon events, which it is, when loaded with Holy Arrows.

But that's because of Holy arrows. The Chain Gun has nothing of the sort that can hit multiple enemies continuously. The only thing bullet weapons have is explosive bullets. And the radius of those explosions are pretty small.

Repeaters exploit the hell out of the Destroyer's weakness by using Jester arrows. Should we nerf that too?

 

[TheNerdiestNerd]

dude, thats wooden arrows. the weakest arrows in the game. imagine this with holy arrows. instant carnage. 128 damage is pretty high for only one click, even for endgame. terra blade does less than that. let's try the current tsunami with holy arrows:
the tsunami does 60 damage, +6 for the holy arrows, so one shot would do 66 damage. but wait, it shoots 5 arrows at once, so 6x5=30. total of 90 damage per click. but wait, each arrow shoots stars too! so each star does half the damage of bow and arrow combined. thats 66, so 33 would be how much damage each star does. 33x5=165. add that to the damage of the bow with the arrows and you get 90+165=255 damage. per click. without accessories or shroomite armor. insanely OP, even for endgame. as for "making up my mind", i'm saying that the only options to rebalance it out would be to either move fishron to post-moon, or nerf the drops. without one of those things, the drops are way op.

heres a story. once, there was a north pole. it was in 1.2.2, and it was OP. but i was fine with it because there was nothing to fight after it that you hadn't fought before. it was truly endgame. then fishron came. you can get his stuff(and most people do) BEFORE the moon events, and they are way easier to control than the north pole.

edit: apparently, i messed up. each holy arrow summons TWO stars, not one. so the damage would be even more OP.

i would like to see you do the frost moon with pre fishron gear.

 

[Lecic]

actually, equipping one is a buff.

Accessories are "buffs" in the same way that using armor is a buff, or using a better weapon is a buff- It's not. It's normal progression of the game. Requiring a player to remove accessories if they want to play in a more balanced fashion is shows you haven't properly balanced stats.

it debuffs damage. and by saying this, you helped my point.

It's not a direct debuff! You trade damage for lifesteal! If it just reduced damage, it would be a debuff, but it doesn't! It gives you positives too!

 

[FlakMaster]

i would like to see you do the frost moon with pre fishron gear.

It's very possible. I jumped straight into the Frost Moon with the Stynger (before it got bugged to do insane damage) the day the update came out. No life-steal assistance, no deaths. Barely hit wave15. This is with a basic arena with few traps.

 

[TheNerdiestNerd]

Accessories are "buffs" in the same way that using armor is a buff, or using a better weapon is a buff- It's not. It's normal progression of the game. Requiring a player to remove accessories if they want to play in a more balanced fashion is shows you haven't properly balanced stats.



It's not a direct debuff! You trade damage for lifesteal! If it just reduced damage, it would be a debuff, but it doesn't! It gives you positives too!

it deboffs damage.
i never said it debuffed anything else.
listen.
you know what...
im done with this.
you.
everyone else here.
have a nice day.

 

[Tunnel King]

you know what...
im done with this.

Yes, you are. There is no excuse for an outburst like that. Lashing out at others does not strengthen your opinion. If you can't make your points in a civil and respectful manner, then don't post them.

You are banned from replying to this thread going forward.